Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

I say being second and 10 points off is only important relative to who is first. Look at the money, players and stability that Man U. have. Does that not explain any of the 10 points difference??
I actually think Liverpool (with the help of Rafa) have been outperforming for years. Can anyone really say we have a better set of players than Chelsea or Man U.??

Hashman, we were top of the ladder only a few weeks ago.

We were still that "unstable" club that we are today, with the same owners and we were first! The Mwancs were the same "stable" club they are today and were 7pts behind!

Im sorry mate but ur clutching at straws with the way ur trying to defend the indefensible. The reason why we arent first ISNT just because of this so called "unstability".

It has largely to do with the manager as well!

Doesn't explain :-

Stoke 0-0 Liverpool
Liverpool 1-1 Bitters
Wigan 1-1 Liverpool
Liverpool 1-1 Man City
Middlesboro 2-0 Liverpool

Just two league wins in 2009 so far, a last ditch win at FP and a last gasp win against 10 man Chelsea thanks to two individual errors - in fact I'd say both were thanks to individual errors.

Rafa is to blame for the "instability", he's buying players of around the same level as he was when he started and so we're simply swapping ordinary players in for ordinary ones out. Bar perhaps Riera, our best starting XI is the same as last season so there is room for stability. But I'm sure then the counter-argument will be our starting XI isn't as good as man utd's. That as may be, but it shouldn't need to be to beat the teams named that we didn't in 2009 - unless people want to suggest our squad isn't as good as the bitters', boro's, citeh's, Wigan's or Stoke's.

Not winning enough games is our problem, even in the Champions League we don't win that often, but the format lets Rafa get away with it. That's why he's more suited to that competition, and human nature would incline people towards what they're good at....................

[Effes]

My opinion is that Rafa will never win the Prem with us.

[devaney]

My opinion is that Rafa will never win the Prem with us.

Let's forget about the owners for the sake of this debate. Rafa has spent as much as anybody except Chelsea over the last four to five years. £200m over ffs !!!!!!!! Ok he has recouped about £100m from selling players including some of the pityful shi..te that he has bought. Rafa is paid a small fortune to field the flack and he has failed miserably. Never has Liverpool's dirty washing been publicised so much. Look at the mess he got in with Gerrard's contract after we won the CL. I for one don't just blame Parry for that outlandish fkn debacle!

Personally I have had enough and if he ..ed off to Madrid tomorrow i wouldn't be that bothered!

[Rockthekop]

Progress: Liverpool v Aston Villa (since MON arrived)

2005/2006          P      W      D      L      PT
3 Liverpool 38 25 7 6 82
16 Aston Villa 38 10 12 16 42

2006/2007
3 Liverpool 38 20 8 10 68
11 Aston Villa 38 11 17 10 50

2007/2008
4 Liverpool 38 21 13 4      76
6 Aston Villa 38 16 12 10 60

2008/2009 (to date)
3 Liverpool 27 15 10 2 55
4 Aston Villa 26 15 6 5 51


As the stats show Aston Villa have obviously made huge progress under MON.  Same can't be said for Liverpool under Rafa.

Liverpool have taken a step forward (from 2004/2005), a step back, a step forward and are likely take another step back this season, since we need 7 wins out of the remaining 11 games just to match last seasons points tally.

[Boocity]

I have been a supporter of Rafa during his time at Liverpool but I am now questioning this. The defeat at Middlesbrough was the final straw for me.
Have we made progress in his time here, yes definitely, will he take us to the next level and win the EPL, I have serious doubts he can. The quality in the depth of the squad just is not there, some of the decisions he has made this year have been strange to say the least. He can blame the players for not scoring yesterday but he bought these player, he sold Keane without a replacement.
The latest news that he told Kuyt not to sign until his future was sorted is a total disgrace, he is using the players contracts as a bargaining tool against the club.
Some people try to look at the comparison between Rafa and Fergie in his early years at Manu, but to be perfectly honest I dont give a feck what happened with Fergie in the late 80's early 90's. The comparrison I would put it against is Maureen at Chelsea or MON at Villa. Look how far Villa have come under MON in such a short time.
I may be the eternal optimist and hope Manu drop 10 points but then again every week I think I will win the lottery and it just doesn't happen.

[Owzat]

I have been a supporter of Rafa during his time at Liverpool but I am now questioning this. The defeat at Middlesbrough was the final straw for me.
Have we made progress in his time here, yes definitely, will he take us to the next level and win the EPL, I have serious doubts he can.

Not sure we are progressing, maybe more difficult to beat but is more draws enough "progress" if indeed it is progress?

I have the splits of games into quarters, at least as close as you can get, by season. The win percentage rarely goes above 50%, I have indicated where it exceeds 60%, the one instance of 55.56% (4/9) is not worth including as it is only just above 50% and in a nine game run that isn't really significant

Rafa Premiership "Progress"

04/05 01-10 : P10 W5 D2 L3 PTS 17 (Pts/Game 1.70)
04/05 11-19 : P9 W4 D2 L3 PTS 14 (Pts/Game 1.56)
04/05 20-28 : P9 W4 D0 L5 PTS 12 (Pts/Game 1.33)
04/05 29-38 : P9 W4 D2 L3 PTS 15 (Pts/Game 1.50)
05/06 01-10 : P10 W4 D4 L2 PTS 16 (Pts/Game 1.60)
05/06 11-19 : P9 W8 D1 L0 PTS 25 (Pts/Game 2.78)
05/06 20-28 : P9 W4 D2 L3 PTS 14 (Pts/Game 1.56) - Won 88.89%
05/06 29-38 : P10 W9 D0 L1 PTS 27 (Pts/Game 2.70) - Won 90.00%
06/07 01-10 : P10 W4 D2 L4 PTS 14 (Pts/Game 1.40)
06/07 11-19 : P9 W6 D2 L1 PTS 20 (Pts/Game 2.22) - Won 66.67%
06/07 20-28 : P9 W6 D1 L2 PTS 19 (Pts/Game 2.11) - Won 66.67%
06/07 29-38 : P10 W4 D3 L3 PTS 15 (Pts/Game 1.50)
07/08 01-10 : P10 W5 D5 L0 PTS 20 (Pts/Game 2.00)
07/08 11-19 : P9 W5 D2 L2 PTS 16 (Pts/Game 1.89)
07/08 20-28 : P9 W4 D4 L1 PTS 16 (Pts/Game 1.78)
07/08 29-38 : P10 W7 D2 L1 PTS 23 (Pts/Game 2.30) - Won 70.00%
08/09 01-10 : P10 W8 D2 L0 PTS 26 (Pts/Game 2.60) - Won 80.00%
08/09 11-19 : P9 W4 D4 L1 PTS 16 (Pts/Game 1.78)
08/09 20-28 : P8 W3 D4 L1 PTS 13 (Pts/Game 1.63)

Our worst finishes/last nine games of the season "coincided" when there was a Champions League final as a distraction. More often than not the league is lost by then anyway, maybe we'll never find out if Rafa can juggle the two or if he'd consider writing off the Champions League in favour of a title bid to the end.

The last four Champions have won 71% or more of their games, we can barely sustain a run of games winning that frequently let alone a whole season. I reckoned quite some time ago that you need to win 27 games to win the Premiership, if we win all our remaining games we'd win 26. 88 points would have won the Premiership last season or in 02/03, but not inbetween and possibly not this season.

We're just incapable of winning enough games over a sustained period, maybe Rafa could fix our goalscoring problems but he hasn't in 4.75 seasons so what odds he would in 6,7 or 8 - or get it right?

[kazza]

The comparrison I would put it against is Maureen at Chelsea or MON at Villa. Look how far Villa have come under MON in such a short time.
I may be the eternal optimist and hope Manu drop 10 points but then again every week I think I will win the lottery and it just doesn't happen.

Maureen had an unlimited chequebook to buy anyone he could and he already had a good team to begin with. He won two in a row and then lost it. If he was back at Chelsea he would not win the prem I do not believe. Jose was good at selling Jose.

MON now give me a break. What has he done at Villa. End of the season they will be fifth, basically where they were last year and he has not had to deal with 10% of the restrictions Raffa has in the last couple of years.

[Boocity]

The comparrison I would put it against is Maureen at Chelsea or MON at Villa. Look how far Villa have come under MON in such a short time.
I may be the eternal optimist and hope Manu drop 10 points but then again every week I think I will win the lottery and it just doesn't happen.

Maureen had an unlimited chequebook to buy anyone he could and he already had a good team to begin with. He won two in a row and then lost it. If he was back at Chelsea he would not win the prem I do not believe. Jose was good at selling Jose.

MON now give me a break. What has he done at Villa. End of the season they will be fifth, basically where they were last year and he has not had to deal with 10% of the restrictions Raffa has in the last couple of years.

Sorry Kazza, I don't agree with you there. Villa have progressed significantly under MON without great resources. As for Maureen, just because he had lots of dosh to play with its not a foregone conclusion you will win the title, Houlier springs to mind. JM has been successful at all the clubs he has managed so he must do something right.

[stmichael]

I have been a supporter of Rafa during his time at Liverpool but I am now questioning this. The defeat at Middlesbrough was the final straw for me.
Have we made progress in his time here, yes definitely, will he take us to the next level and win the EPL, I have serious doubts he can. The quality in the depth of the squad just is not there, some of the decisions he has made this year have been strange to say the least. He can blame the players for not scoring yesterday but he bought these player, he sold Keane without a replacement.
The latest news that he told Kuyt not to sign until his future was sorted is a total disgrace, he is using the players contracts as a bargaining tool against the club.
Some people try to look at the comparison between Rafa and Fergie in his early years at Manu, but to be perfectly honest I dont give a feck what happened with Fergie in the late 80's early 90's. The comparrison I would put it against is Maureen at Chelsea or MON at Villa. Look how far Villa have come under MON in such a short time.
I may be the eternal optimist and hope Manu drop 10 points but then again every week I think I will win the lottery and it just doesn't happen.

Hardly a fair comparison.

Man U have had the same manager for 22 years. Rafa does not enjoy the stability nor the full backing (politically nor financially) that Ferguson receives. He is charged with building a large squad capable of challenging for all honours yet he has to do without the budget afforded to his peers. Does he build a first XI of stars and hope none get injured? Does he look to build a squad of some depth using a combination of talent and utility dictated more by budget than talent preference?

Chelsea have spent over 600M since they were bought 6 years ago. They have had more depth and talent left at home on game day than we had in our entire first team when Rafa took over. We stand a good chance of finishing above them this season (having played and beaten them twice in the league for the first time this season)

Wenger has been manager of Arsenal for 13 years. This will be the 2nd season out of the last 3 that we have finished above his team.

[Sir Roger]

I have been a supporter of Rafa during his time at Liverpool but I am now questioning this. The defeat at Middlesbrough was the final straw for me.
Have we made progress in his time here, yes definitely, will he take us to the next level and win the EPL, I have serious doubts he can. The quality in the depth of the squad just is not there, some of the decisions he has made this year have been strange to say the least. He can blame the players for not scoring yesterday but he bought these player, he sold Keane without a replacement.
The latest news that he told Kuyt not to sign until his future was sorted is a total disgrace, he is using the players contracts as a bargaining tool against the club.
Some people try to look at the comparison between Rafa and Fergie in his early years at Manu, but to be perfectly honest I dont give a feck what happened with Fergie in the late 80's early 90's. The comparrison I would put it against is Maureen at Chelsea or MON at Villa. Look how far Villa have come under MON in such a short time.
I may be the eternal optimist and hope Manu drop 10 points but then again every week I think I will win the lottery and it just doesn't happen.

Hardly a fair comparison.

Man U have had the same manager for 22 years. Rafa does not enjoy the stability nor the full backing (politically nor financially) that Ferguson receives. He is charged with building a large squad capable of challenging for all honours yet he has to do without the budget afforded to his peers. Does he build a first XI of stars and hope none get injured? Does he look to build a squad of some depth using a combination of talent and utility dictated more by budget than talent preference?

Chelsea have spent over 600M since they were bought 6 years ago. They have had more depth and talent left at home on game day than we had in our entire first team when Rafa took over. We stand a good chance of finishing above them this season (having played and beaten them twice in the league for the first time this season)

Wenger has been manager of Arsenal for 13 years. This will be the 2nd season out of the last 3 that we have finished above his team.

Im afraid your argument doesnt stand up
I dont believe you can use the argument that the others bought better players therefore they are miles ahead of us. GH used to beat the mancs regularly and Rafa has beaten chelsea regularly. It is the type of player and how he wants to play them which is Rafas biggest weakness. It suits Europe for the style of play needed for the CL but he doesnt seem to have the skill or capability to gather a squad which can challenge for the PL. Maybe its the lack of glamour (Madrid or Middlesborough?) which doesnt inspire him? But to use tonights game as a carrot for the Madrid game tells us something about what is going on.

[Owzat]

Arsene proves you don't need to be a big spender to be competitive, his "invincibles" probably cost tinkerman his job. But Arsene doesn't like doing it easy, either that or the board love selling players from under him. Arsene didn't take forever to break the manc grip on the Premiership, he rarely splashed the cash as heavily as any of the others in the 'big four' and probably/possibly less than teams like Newcastle and Tottenham. You have to wonder if we'd got Wenger instead of Rafa whether we'd have been challenging, or if Wenger simply can't help himself in trying to do it the hard way. Wenger dismantled the "invincibles" very quickly, is it only Clichy that remains now?

What made me chuckle this morning is how villa are perceived as having a good season, Arsenal a bad season - but for villa beating Arsenal they'd be level on points!

[Effes]

What made me chuckle this morning is how villa are perceived as having a good season, Arsenal a bad season - but for villa beating Arsenal they'd be level on points!

One word mate - expectations.

[tonyeh]

What made me chuckle this morning is how villa are perceived as having a good season, Arsenal a bad season - but for villa beating Arsenal they'd be level on points!

One word mate - expectations.

And "relatively".   

[Sabre]

I don't think he is capable of winning the Premier League, regardless of how much money you give him. Because of these reasons:
    I don't think his mentality in terms of how defensive he is and how much stock he places on avoidance of defeat above all else is conjusive to winning the league.
    I don't think he can resist styling, over-complication, adjustments, tinkering, showing everyone how clever he is etc. At the heart of his philosophy IMHO he feels he is the general, expertly interchanging his troops to counter each and every manager he locks horns with. Football is simpler than that IMHO, and managers aren't the stars in that respect, players are. He'll never let it go, and at various stages of each and every season he is in charge we will get ridiculous selections which cost us points.

Of course to defend a strong claiming as saying he won't ever win the league for us you have to write powerful reasons. Those reasons you write are powerful, but are based IMHO on prejudices that are not necessarily true.

If you look at last season, which is not a convenient season for stats because it was a dissapointing one, you'll see how you can't really defend looking at the goals we score we're a defensive team. We take care the defense yes and we're as good as receiving 28 goals only, but we only score 7 goals less in the season than fast flowing football Arsenal.

Some teams do score as much as 71 goals, but then they also concede 51. So I'd say Liverpool is not a gung ho team, but not ultradefensive neither.

I'm surprised to read your prejudices about Rafa not being able to let it go styling, because you remember well how he saw the light and he was more than ready to play more or less the same team at the beginning of the season. From there, he had to answer to Torres, and Gerrard injuries which is never easy.

Right now he's taking strange decissions like Skrtl, and Mascherno at RB, but most of it motivated by absences.

    I don't think he is a good enough man manager to extract that extra 5% from players, which is needed on wet and Wednesday night in Wigan, when we're wan-nil down    I think he is a methodical, meticulous manager who is incapable of inspirational man management, and I think it holds us back.

Yet we have seen many times how we win games in the latter minutes of the match, and we could always remember the Istambul final .

I think you have made a very negative image of Rafa. Mine is perhaps too positive, but we probably both would change our opinion if we saw him working dairy at Melwood.

Too many assumptions on manager's personality. Too strong prediction based on that perception of his personality. If you want an example, take Alonso's case, many thought that his behaviour to Xabi was a disgrace, but the truth is the player these days is backing the manager everytime he's asked. It couldn't be such a unhuman disgrace after all.

Of course, if you take as a truth he won't bring us the league is easy to draw a future dark scenario, but I don't share your perception of the manager, and I don't agree that deterministic predictions. When I look the team now and 5 years ago, I see a more respected team in Europe, I see fans dissapointed because not being first, not not being top 4, I see best players of europe considering Liverpool as a good destination, and I see Liverpool respected in my country as they were in the early eighties.

If with another manager we get better results, then I'd give the kick to Rafa myself, but problem is that I'm not sure whatsoever another manager will bring more success to this club. You can focus in Rafa's failures, some of which are true like the lack of a good RM. But if you don't give enough value to other players he's brought such as Torres Alonso Reina, Mascherano or even Riera, then you are not looking the whole picture, IMHO.

If getting close to win the league was that easy, I'd like to know how come we didn't get close to it in so many years, and I wonder if we'll come back again to be an anonymous team in Europe after this spell with Rafa again. I'll be the happiest chum if we bring another manager and succeed, and I invite everybody to have a laugh to my fears then, but perceptions of Rafa's personality and caricatures of it are not enough to convince me.

And much of the stick Rafa receives from the pundits are caricaturesque views of his personna. Other managers rotate but won't be ridiculed that way.

[bigmick]

I can't quote individual lines, so I'll just them in quotes.

"Those reasons you write are powerful, but are based IMHO on prejudices that are not necessarily true." I don't think my opinion is based on prejudice. Before Rafa came to Liverpool I had barely heard of him, and I've kept my council for five years. I think I've based my opinions on seeing him work, seeing the results of his efforts.

  "you can't really defend looking at the goals we score we're a defensive team" I never actually said we were a defensive team. I said the manager has at the heart of his outlook a fear of defeat, which causes us to approach games negatively. Yes we score goals, but if the other team draws level or the score remains at 0-0, too often we settle for it.

"I'm surprised to read your prejudices about Rafa not being able to let it go styling, because you remember well how he saw the light and he was more than ready to play more or less the same team at the beginning of the season. From there, he had to answer to Torres, and Gerrard injuries which is never easy." He did drop the styling at the start of this season when we won lots of matches (funny that) but he is beginning to make up for it now. There have been many instances where the team selection has been in my opinion ridiculous. On some of those occasions we've won, on too many others we haven't.

I don't think the number of times we've come back from behind is necessarily proof that he is a great man manager. I'm talking about whther the players gel togehter, whether there is a fight about them, whether players improve under him, flourish, whether they'd run through brick walls for him. With the greatest respect, if you think he brings that to the table then we're simply going to have to disagree. The "evidence" is not what players say in interviews, it's what they do on the pitch.



As for the last bit, I agree we've improved in Europe. I also agree that the team is stronger than it was when he took over. 200 million quid stronger though? Sorry no.

I think we're just going to have to disagree. We'll no doubt get some proof one way or the other over the next few seasons. My bet is, after seven seasons of Rafa this will be the closest we ever get to winnign the league.


People can cling on to the give him more time/more money stuff, but I've seen enough. I've heard enough, and I've read enough. There's no certainty that a new bloke could win it either, but I'm absolutely convinced that Rafa never ever will so IMHO it's got to be worth a go.


As far as the current manager is concerned, in my eyes he's blown it. He's just had the best chance any Liverpool manager in years has had to win the title, mostly through a situation which was niothing to do with him. Even in those circumstances, he made a complete nonsense of it so I have zero faith he'll do it off a level playing field.