Liverpool FC Forum

[The Good Yank]

well not sure if he is young and he seems to be out injured a lot

Was one of his injuries due to his goal celebrations?

[GYBS]

no idea mate

[Effes]

Why the fuck do people turn threads into a chat room?

GYBS, I appreciate your point earlier - but looking back you are just as guilty.
(Im sure you got a ban for doing something similar)
Sir Roger - try and not be an @rse - make a point and back it up with reason.

What's with the one-liners? "Yea mate I think so", "Yea mate I dunno", "Dya think mate, hope so" and so on and so on ??!!

As I say, dont turn threads into a chat room. It's quite easy, taken an aspect of a post - say whether you agree
or not and then WHY you agree or not.

I doubt whether I'll ever bother putting the same effort into starting a thread if it gets treated like a chat room. 

[GYBS]

Why the fuck do people turn threads into a chat room?

GYBS, I appreciate your point earlier - but looking back you are just as guilty.
(Im sure you got a ban for doing something similar)
Sir Roger - try and not be an @rse - make a point and back it up with reason.

What's with the one-liners? "Yea mate I think so", "Yea mate I dunno", "Dya think mate, hope so" and so on and so on ??!!

As I say, dont turn threads into a chat room. It's quite easy, taken an aspect of a post - say whether you agree
or not and then WHY you agree or not.

I doubt whether I'll ever bother putting the same effort into starting a thread if it gets treated like a chat room. 

we are talking about players to improve the team - hence talking football just because its one liners whyat the hell is the problem with that - shalll i write more stories . this is a forum to talk about football - well guess what i was doing - talking about football .

[bigmick]

It's frustrating Eff I know. Then the self same people who do that will get on your case for ruining threads.

Anway, it's an excellent starting post and it certainly provokes a bit of thought. I think there's little doubt that todays team is better than the one Rafa was left behind, provided we play our first choice players. The squad is arguably a lot closer, and I think if the Steven Gerrard and Jamie Carragher of today was in the squad of five years ago, it would in all probablity be very close indeed. But anyway, they were long lads then so we'll take it as face value, IMHO the team has improved but the squad hasn't really by that much overall. In some areas it has, in the centre of defence and midfield, but up top it is just about as bare as I can ever remember any cupboard of any big four ever being if I'm honest. I simply cannot imagine any circumstance over the last five seasons where David N'Gog would have started a league game as a lone striker for any other big four team.

In Europe, there is of course no debate. We haven't just progressed, we've excelled. I can talk about it for a bit if you want, but we all know it so I'm not diminishing it by not bothering, there is just no debate there.

In the league we are moving forwards, painfully slowly given the money we're spending but we are moving forwards. We are gradually getting better and better at what we do. What we do is strangle games, make ourselves very difficult to beat, be very compact and close the ball down extremely effectively. The reasons though that I don't think we'll eventually scale the summit under Rafa are threefold. Firstly, our set up and game plan isn't conjusive to winning lots and lots of matches consecutively. Quite simply, we don't make enough goalscoring opportunities or attack enough from minute one. Now for that to change, it wouldn't just require new personel, it would require a complete paradigm shift on the part of Rafa, and I think I've come to the conclusion that's unlikely.

The second reason which I think we'll never win it, is that a number of times during the season we are going to take our lives into our hands with a very strange (that wasn't what I first typed, I changed it for you ) selection. Some say it's Rafa trying to be clever, some say it's part of a grand plan, but all I know is on the occasions when we get silly, when the uber rotation kicks in, we risk losing points. Occasionally we dig ourselves out of the mire, but often we don't. There are numerous examples of it over the last three seasons, but I won't go into them here.

The final reason i don't think we'll win the title under him is the capacity for self destruction which he has, via his dealings with the press, players, board etc etc.


So in conclusion, we have massively progressed in Europe. The team is better, the squad (in terms of back up players) is probably better but not by much. Our league form has dfinately progressed, but ultimately IMHo it is reasonable to expect more improvement than we've seen, and my own feeling is we are approaching the maximum number of points it is possible to attain with a largely negative style of play. If you set up not to get beat week after week, and week after week you don't get beat, it's hard to see how you can improve much more really.

[heimdall]

Why the fuck do people turn threads into a chat room?

GYBS, I appreciate your point earlier - but looking back you are just as guilty.
(Im sure you got a ban for doing something similar)
Sir Roger - try and not be an @rse - make a point and back it up with reason.

What's with the one-liners? "Yea mate I think so", "Yea mate I dunno", "Dya think mate, hope so" and so on and so on ??!!

As I say, dont turn threads into a chat room. It's quite easy, taken an aspect of a post - say whether you agree
or not and then WHY you agree or not.

I doubt whether I'll ever bother putting the same effort into starting a thread if it gets treated like a chat room. 

Well I enjoed the effort you put in Effes, very interesting stats and thread.

[The Good Yank]

So I scrolled up to the top of the screen and typed, Obefami in the google search and Obefami Martins came up so I clicked on it.

A list came up and at the top was a Wiki entry for Newcastle striker Obefami Martins. I clicked on that.

I read that he was born in 1984, after learning that he has two brothers and started at his hometown club after being spotted while playing on the street, by the local club's manager.

After reading about his start at Inter and his move to Newcastle, how his Newcastle career has sort of run hot and cold, I learned that Martins tore his hamstring and had an operation for a hernia back in late January.

Then I was reminded that I did know this already from watching SSN at 2am but was too drunk to remember it.


short version:

Martins will be 25 in Oct. and is out with a torn hamstring and hernia from the end of January.

[Effes]

Im not even gonna bother replying to Good Yank, think he's been on the wacky backy.

IMHO the team has improved but the squad hasn't really by that much overall. In some areas it has, in the centre of defence and midfield, but up top it is just about as bare as I can ever remember any cupboard of any big four ever being if I'm honest. I simply cannot imagine any circumstance over the last five seasons where David N'Gog would have started a league game as a lone striker for any other big four team.

Mick, I'll break your post up.

This first bit - yea, the 1st eleven is stronger, but whether the squad is, I dont know.
The only player like Ngog who has played for the top 4 recently is maybe that Cole fella for Chelsea?

What is worrying is how Rafa will address that.

It's a bit of a "Keane-Syndrome" - spend big money and that player will want to play. So, go to 4-4-2 or move him to Kuyt's position in the 4-2-3-1?
If we go 4-4-2, we need a better fella on the right than Kuyt (IMHO), so do we need to buy for that again?

[Effes]

So in conclusion, we have massively progressed in Europe. The team is better, the squad (in terms of back up players) is probably better but not by much. Our league form has dfinately progressed, but ultimately IMHo it is reasonable to expect more improvement than we've seen, and my own feeling is we are approaching the maximum number of points it is possible to attain with a largely negative style of play. If you set up not to get beat week after week, and week after week you don't get beat, it's hard to see how you can improve much more really.

Ok mick - so "the way we play category" is where you think we'll come unstuck.

I know you've quoted Rafa's record with Valencia when they won the league. And I must say, it backs up anyone who says they have doubts.
Our league form doesn't seem to show anything different - the large %age of draws are still there.

Your coclusion is the same I came to a while back, we have progressed, but Rafa cant progress us enough to be League Champions.

My "recent" thinking (    ) is, well let's see whether he can prove us wrong. I'm a right turncoat Ive just realised.   

[bigmick]

Well being a turncoat is Ok mate. To be fair, if ever a manager practically encouraged turncoatism it's this one. We lurch from one fantastic result to a poor one in the pace of a few days, one day we can't beat Wigan, the next we are beating Real Madrid. Many other people, infact everyone secretly I should think gets doubts about their own position at times, dogma dictates though that they don't admit it.

As for Rafa winning us the league, clearly it's not an absolute impossibility. Can it be won though with the circumspect, "wait and see", "make sure you don't get beat" style we currently employ? I don't think it can to be honest no. I think that is impossible. I actually think that based on the way matches have gone this season, and the way we've played, we are probably six or seven points better than we might reasonably expect. I know we've comceded the odd late one, but feck me we've dragged ourselves out of the mire a few times more, and I think it would be unrealistic to expect to do that even more times next season.

So running with my prognosis for a second, in order for Rafa to win it he would have to alter his philosophy. Now that's not impossible by any means, we've seen for instance that after four years of fairly clear evidence he decided to give mass rotation from game one a miss this season. That shows two things, one that he isn't the quickest to believe what is glaringly obvious if it counteracts his previous convictions, but two, that he is willing to change eventually. Now he's had a year this season of being just about at efficient at being difficult to beat as it's possible to be. We may yet get close to winning the Prem with that method. I don't think he's going to be up for ditching it until we've absolutely proven beyond any doubt that you can't win it that way. He STILL refers to how he won the league at Valencia while drawing stacks of matches, so my feeling is we are in for at least another season of the same kind of approach, and probably two if he lasts that long.

If he does change his approach, there has been no indiaction so far that he is going to be able to make the transition. He hasn't bought the kind of players which would be needed for such a method, and on the odd occasion he has encountered mercurial operators, he hasn't exactly been receptive and encouraging to their plight. My view is that he probably won't be able to make the necessary adjustments to win it in England, but we'll see.

[NANNY RED]

Absolutly brilliant article well i think so anyway, but im no one

A Real reason to back Benitez
by Ben Blackmore , 26 February 2009

Without a shadow of a doubt…Rafa Benitez has become taken for granted.

Taken for granted by the media (to a ridiculous extent) and, judging by reaction to yesterday’s departure rumours, taken for granted by some of his own fans.

Last night Liverpool went to the home of the biggest club in world football, the home of the nine-time European Champions, the home of ‘resurgent Real Madrid’, without Steven Gerrard, and they made them look very ordinary.

I would like to stress the ‘made them look ordinary’ part of that last sentence. For if you listened to an extremely familiar voice during Wednesday’s match, you would think Madrid had beaten themselves.

This was a Madrid side who has scored 10 goals in the last two games, a Madrid side that boasted 13 goals-in-23 games Raul alongside 14 goals-in-21 games Higuain, supported by one of the world’s top three widemen Arjen Robben.

But while Real’s terrific trio barely made any impression throughout 90 minutes, all we heard was how ‘disappointing’ Madrid were, how ‘average’ they looked.

Funnily enough, the same was said of Inter after Liverpool silenced The San Siro in equally comfortable manner last year.

Has it ever occurred to anyone that maybe it is Benitez and Liverpool who are making these teams look average? I suggest you watch Wednesday’s victory again, and imagine you’re a Madrid player. Look how few options each man has every time he receives the ball, look how little time each man has as Mascherano and co snap away.

The case in point is Arjen Robben. Once or twice he inevitably broke free – he is a class player after all, but in the main he was forced inside by the excellent Fabio Aurelio, where Mascherano and Riera were always ready to nip the ball off his toes. It was military stuff, led by Lieutenant Benitez.

Five years ago, in the season before Benitez took charge at Anfield, Liverpool were slumping out of the Uefa Cup fourth round to Marseille with Igor Biscan committing his usual clown impressions in defence.

Now, under Benitez, The Reds dismiss the cream of Europe’s crop every season with so much ease that they barely get the credit they deserve.

Joe Cole even went as far as to label Liverpool the one team that NOBODY in Europe wants to play, yet it seems every European win nowadays is only used as extra ammo to attack Benitez’s inability to catch Manchester United.

Compare the reaction to Liverpool’s away win against Bayer Leverkusen back in 2005 with Wednesday’s win in Madrid. Glory European nights are being taken for granted.

You even hear fans saying “we’re not interested in the Champions League, we want the Premier League”. Yes the league is priority, but who on earth do these fans think they are to be so blasé about club football’s greatest trophy? 

Benitez is taking Liverpool closer and closer to the title but, until he reaches the Holy Grail, why not sit back and enjoy the sheer volume of glory European nights that no club can rival in the past four seasons? The Reds are extremely fortunate to have him.

Newcastle should be an example to everyone here. Their ‘supporters’ hounded Sir Bobby Robson out of the club after a slow start to a season – despite the fact he was constantly delivering top four or five finishes for the club. Now they can only dream of playing Madrid, let alone beating them so comfortably.

Liverpool were heading for similar anonymity before the arrival of Benitez. His departure could very well lead to a return to those dark days.

http://www.setanta.com/UK....ed-Rafa

[tubby]

Quality read that. Makes me sad to think so many people actuall want him out including these new prospective owners.

[GYBS]

Think a lot of the problems or should i say stick rafa is getting is because of the league form and whats happening yearly there .  i agree totally about the cl, yeah the league is the one we want - everyone wants but i would also love to win the cl - a lot of players and managers see it as the big one - its why a lot of big players go to certain clubs - because of CL - just think if spurs where in the CL they prob would have etoo playing for them right now. the league will always remain the priority but the cl is pretty much right behind it in my eyes . We are a force in europe there is no doubt about that - we prove it on a yearly basis against the best in europe - every year we beat one of the giants - the inters , milans, barces , madrids etc and the report is right - every time we do win it is because the other team where poor on the night - we have even seen it here on the forum with people saying the same thing - yet only on the odd occasion does someone stand up and stay - "you know what well done liverpool - well deserved both players and managers " it would be nice to see and hear a bit of credit from both the media and some of our own fans .

we have progressed to become one of the best in the cl because of our managers in the main and he deserves the credit for that . its the league that some have the benchmark - he does improve every year - for some its not quick enough and for some there is no improvement and for some when this is improvement its because other teams are poor . Look at the starting line up from rafas first game to the team he has now - who would get into the current team from that ? Finnan maybe and maybe didi (but would still pick masher) and maybe garcia on the bench - but who else ? not many in my eyes . So yes we have improved - massively in europe and slowly in the prem .

[Effes]

For if you listened to an extremely familiar voice during Wednesday’s match, you would think Madrid had beaten themselves.

Great article. Anyone know who the commentator was?
Clive Tyldesley, the former Radio City commentator, by any chance?

[account deleted by request]

Think a lot of the problems or should i say stick rafa is getting is because of the league form and whats happening yearly there .  i agree totally about the cl, yeah the league is the one we want - everyone wants but i would also love to win the cl - a lot of players and managers see it as the big one - its why a lot of big players go to certain clubs - because of CL - just think if spurs where in the CL they prob would have etoo playing for them right now. the league will always remain the priority but the cl is pretty much right behind it in my eyes . We are a force in europe there is no doubt about that - we prove it on a yearly basis against the best in europe - every year we beat one of the giants - the inters , milans, barces , madrids etc and the report is right - every time we do win it is because the other team where poor on the night - we have even seen it here on the forum with people saying the same thing - yet only on the odd occasion does someone stand up and stay - "you know what well done liverpool - well deserved both players and managers " it would be nice to see and hear a bit of credit from both the media and some of our own fans .

we have progressed to become one of the best in the cl because of our managers in the main and he deserves the credit for that . its the league that some have the benchmark - he does improve every year - for some its not quick enough and for some there is no improvement and for some when this is improvement its because other teams are poor . Look at the starting line up from rafas first game to the team he has now - who would get into the current team from that ? Finnan maybe and maybe didi (but would still pick masher) and maybe garcia on the bench - but who else ? not many in my eyes . So yes we have improved - massively in europe and slowly in the prem .

Finnan, Riise(?), Hyypia, Gerrard, Garcia, Carra, Hamann (?) Kewell ....... I think most of those would be first choice, with Cisse, Baros, Ponglole and even LeTalec infront of N'gog on the bench.