Liverpool FC Forum

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:42 am

bigmick wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:Its down to pure luck, when luck isnt involved, you will win a small amount, but luck is the majority of the game. You get the players bragging "its down to skill", then you can counter argue why they have lost so many "good" hands. Of all the card games I have played, poker is the most fate reliant game there is, what other game can you win with a 2 of spades and A queen of clubs? Even snap has some sort of skill involved, that would be reaction ! Poker is a convenience game, just like blackjack. Doesnt it make you wonder why the two biggest games of luck are the two biggest games in casinos?

Hey I absolutely totally disagreee with you mate, but that's what aforum is for. If it was luck, the same players would win 2000 seat tournaments all the time though. IMHo it's got an element of luck toit roughly the same as a game of football. Put a top player in a room with each and every member of the forum with even numbers of chips, and they'd come out on top on most occasions.

Check out some of the footage on Youtube. Check out Joe's pick Daniel Neagranu, no luck involved when the fella can tell what cards you've in your hand, and actually tells you .

It is more luck than skill. I've been playing long enough to realize that. What Neagranau does is nothing special. He often gets it wrong as much as he gets it right when deducing hands, though he is better than most at doing it, though it's usually premium hands that are by the book, made hands like wired pairs (usually paint) and AK, AQ etc etc. I've called out people's exact hands before, usually by just watching them for a bit and figuring out their betting pattern. You can get massive reads off betting patterns. Forget the poker face. That's usually a myth, as the biggest tells are how people bet. It's far easier to play against a good poker player, than it is against a maniac player who is very loose and wreckless. For these players, you really do need to be tight and check them into the nuts when you have it. Cuts out the risk of bad beats.

The skill in poker is knowing when to play a hand, and knowing when to fold a good hand if you've got one, knowing you're beat. Far too many people look at hands like KQ or QJ and think these are made hands. They aren't. I usually toss them if I'm not getting the value, whereas a lot of poor players will pay limpers tax by flat calling, then getting busted by seeing top pair on the flop, but being kickered. The skill is knowledge, experience, and observation of your opponent.

The scenario you described is a perfect example of seeing the flop for cheap and having a draw with a few outs. Usually when a low flop comes down, and it's a rainbow (various suits) and someone pushes, it's an indicator of protection of an over pair the player has in the hole, or top top. I'd only call an all in in that situation if I was short stacked and getting the value depending on how many outs I had. Usually, an open-ended straight draw is a no-no for me to call my chips away with, though again this depends on my stack and if I'm getting the value.

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:57 am

Emerald Red wrote:Usually, an open-ended straight draw is a no-no for me to call my chips away with, though again this depends on my stack and if I'm getting the value.

Would have been a no-no for me too mate but I did already have a pair as well, meaning if I spiked a six or a three I was two pair and I figured almost a certainty. I figured it that eigher end of the stright or two pair or even trips on the 3's and I was home.

Like I say I've played the hand out a few trimes in me head this week, and I reckon my biggest mistake was calling to the other big stack. Should have let it go, but then again I do tend towards quite an aggressive style, particularly when the last table gets short. I don't need an awful lot of encouragement to get the chips in which is no bad thing, it's just a question of balance I think.

by **Emerald Red** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:06 am

bigmick wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Usually, an open-ended straight draw is a no-no for me to call my chips away with, though again this depends on my stack and if I'm getting the value.

Would have been a no-no for me too mate but I did already have a pair as well, meaning if I spiked a six or a three I was two pair and I figured almost a certainty. I figured it that eigher end of the stright or two pair or even trips on the 3's and I was home.

Like I say I've played the hand out a few trimes in me head this week, and I reckon my biggest mistake was calling to the other big stack. Should have let it go, but then again I do tend towards quite an aggressive style, particularly when the last table gets short. I don't need an awful lot of encouragement to get the chips in which is no bad thing, it's just a question of balance I think.

There's all kinds of possibilities. You have to think about it this way: even though you hit a piece of it, there were still lots of hands there that were still beating you. You bet, he pushed. For me, that's danger all over it and should tell you that you're behind. You may have a middle or bottom pair, and a dozen outs, but outs don't mean the nuts. If you were behind, that's all that matters. You did the right thing by betting it, but unless the bet left you chip committed - which it shouldn't have with other players in the pot - then it was a very bad call. Like I say, if someone pushes into you like that on a low flop after a bet, he's either protecting an over pair, or possibly even a set. Set's are very hard to spot. Even if you hit your two pair by pairing the board or making trips, you're still drawing dead to a full house. I only really like to play suited connectors by limping in when the blinds are small, and I usually like to raise with them when the game is short handed with sizable blinds because no one has a clue what you have, but only if my stack permits such play. At least if you get a caller, you're putting them on a medium to strong hand. If you flop two pair or a flush, or straight draw, you can really milk a lot of chips out of someone if an ace or king shows as the chances are you know they have it seeing they called a raise in a short hand game. 9 10 suited is a great hand to play like that. Makes your game far more enjoyable mixing it with suited connectors, though it can bite you in the bollox at times.

How many people were involved in that hand when you played it?

by **Effes** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:47 am

Started card schools when I was 17 (now 38) - it always used to be 5 card stud.

But recently have played in Texas Hold'em tournaments online - have come 3rd, and 2nd in 180 player tournaments.
But quite a lot where Ive done sh!te.

Years ago, I was known as a bluffer. Although I dont think it's worth bluffing online that much.

I used to love getting caught doing a bluff, as that meant you could wait a while to get
a really good hand. And normally someone would think you were bluffing again, and you would
get them big time.

Im not too fussed when I get JJ's or QQ's, it only takes a A or K in the flop and you're fecked.
I prefer playing a 9, 10 (or simialr) on small blinds, and getting a decent flop.

by **fivecups** » Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:25 pm

Thanks for that JonF.

Wow - great hand description from Mick and unbelievable analysis from E.R. What level do you play at Emerald? I know poker's big in the South with a few Irish having played with the original greats of Hold 'Em at Binions etc. and the Irish Open being a huge tournament.

Mick I'm not knowledgeable enough to analyse the hand in ER's detail but what he says seems to make sense. Reading your description your up against a very tight, passive player whose not going to take on the joint chip leader unless he's got a big hand. When I got to the part where he pushed all-in I thought he's either got a high pocket pair (AA, KK, QQ) that he's slow-playing or, more likely, A2, 26 or 6,7 and he's made a straight or he's got 3 of a kind. I think at the stage of the hand your most likely behind - I was surprised that he only had nines - as you say it's unusual he didn't raise pre-flop. So the question is do you want to go all-in looking for the straight which you'll hit roughly 1 in 3 times. You placed the continuation bet to see where you were at and he answered. That said with limited time to decide I'd probably have called

by **Emerald Red** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:40 am

fivecups wrote:Thanks for that JonF.

Wow - great hand description from Mick and unbelievable analysis from E.R. What level do you play at Emerald? I know poker's big in the South with a few Irish having played with the original greats of Hold 'Em at Binions etc. and the Irish Open being a huge tournament.

Mick I'm not knowledgeable enough to analyse the hand in ER's detail but what he says seems to make sense. Reading your description your up against a very tight, passive player whose not going to take on the joint chip leader unless he's got a big hand. When I got to the part where he pushed all-in I thought he's either got a high pocket pair (AA, KK, QQ) that he's slow-playing or, more likely, A2, 26 or 6,7 and he's made a straight or he's got 3 of a kind. I think at the stage of the hand your most likely behind - I was surprised that he only had nines - as you say it's unusual he didn't raise pre-flop. So the question is do you want to go all-in looking for the straight which you'll hit roughly 1 in 3 times. You placed the continuation bet to see where you were at and he answered. That said with limited time to decide I'd probably have called

To be honest, and I don't mean to blow my own trumpet, I'd rather play at the higher levels of poker against top players, than against players that really don't have a clue. Players that are clueless tend to give good players bad beats out of sheer luck. You simply can't get them off hands. You can't price them out of pots because they don't understand pot odds and will call with garbage and end up hitting runners on you. It's really all to do with your means. If you've the coin, then you will eventually make money off the "fish" in the long run, but could end up losing a lot also. On the net, pro players only tend to play solid with premium hands. They also tend to play pot limit a lot too, as this can restrict damage should they hit second nuts, and by some freak of odds, someone has the absolute nuts. I've seen poker kings being turned over, only to be drawing dead to Poker Aces (known as quads). Rare, but in no limit, the money is going in the middle there from both players no matter what. That's the danger of no limit.

You can make a decent bundle of notes from online poker, but you need to be smart about it and have a decent bankroll. To get rich in the game, you really just need to be lucky once in a big online tourny. Really, that's how all the great player renowned in the game made a name for themselves. You'll notice that today, that most pro's just don't really win the big WSOP tournaments as much because they are up against poor players that will bust them out due to poor calls and getting lucky. It's easier to play against good, solid professional players (if you're good enough yourself) than it is to play against the beginner. Anyone can get lucky in poker. That's the catch of it.

by **bigmick** » Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:55 am

Last night came ninth out of forty two and got the feeling that I could have gone better. In our local tournament the standard is pretty good, but the thing lasts about 3 1/2 hours from start ot finish and the blinds increase fairly quick. It'd be like a super turbo online tournament if you've ever played one of those.

With the blinds increasing quick, you've really got to be quite active. No point in giving it the Dan Harrington and sitting waiting for decent hands, you've got to make things happen and not be afraid of showdowns. Accepted wisom is that by the interval, you need to at least have doubled up from your original 10,000 chip allocation. Last night I was at 39,000 by the interval an in third. I'd played OK, but on hitting a couple of really decent flops had got a bit pushy and scared everyone off. Probably missed chances to at least increase 20,000 more.

Anyway after the interval it always turns into a bit of a :censored:

shoot as people with 10,000 and less get very pushy looking to double up. I generally will look to call with medium to high ranking holdings, particularly if I'm big blind. Last night guy pushes all in and gets called (not by me in first position, already folded) and hits a king in his K5 offsuit to double up. Lucky but good luck to him, he's 9000 now. Very next hand I'm big blind and get dealt a pair of 8's. We get one caller, then lucky guy goes all in again for his 9K. I reason that given the last hand there's every chance he's got feck all, and my only worry is the other initial caller who has a stack of 16k.

I funkily decide to just flat call (probably should have pushed all in) but it makes no odds as the initial caller makes it 16K to go. At this point I'm obviously disposed towards withing I'd let the fat lady's go, but in for a penny etc and it's in for another 7K. Needless to say all in with feck all guy has A4 offsuit, but re-raiser has the K's. Micky a big dog and looking to spike an 8, but ti wasn't to be and the old stack takes a bit of a pounding.

I don't think I ever revored from that to be honest. I got out kicked AJ to AQ which did for around half my stack, and then it was ducking and diving for a bit with rubbish hands before an exit with K7 hearts which was called and beat by Q 10 offsuit, which hit trip 10's.

In football parlance it was one of them where I'd had a couple of chances but had been more of a Robbie Keane than Fernando Torres. Bad call with the fat ladies as it turned out, should have given the one to come more credit. I'm OK with calling the last 7K as by then it was 7 to win 35, I figured I was a big dog by then but I was better than 20% as I reason there's always at least a 1 in 8 chance re-raise guy was holding AK or something similar.

So I missed out on the hat trick of cash outs, but I'll be back next week.

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:09 am

It's all gone Pete Tong, the run is well and truly ended. Was out early tonight, and that was even after a rebuy

First time out I got put out I get dealt Anna Kournikova (AK). I raise it up to 3 1/2 big blinds and get three callers

. Anyway flop is Ace, 6, 3 and given the decent pot and the fact I've been sitting on rubbish all night, it's time to take the pot down here and now. No heroics, I'll take the 6,400 in the middle which will mkae my 9,300 look much healthy. I push all in and kind of hope to find a stray AQ or AJ who wants to come along for the ride, but instead I get two folds but run headfirst into trip 6's off the one caller. No aces on turn or river, Anna Kournikova lives up to it's name (looks good wins feck all) and Micky is fishing for a rebuy, ouch!

By this time blinds are 400 and 800 and the old 10,000 starting stack is getting eaten quite quick with the old blinds and anti's. Time to make a move, kill or be killed and all that, and when a fella goes in with his last 8,500 (which is over me at this point) and I'm sitting on JQ clubs, I figure now is agood a time as any. The blinds will fold I reckon, leaving their 1200 in the mix, along with even money for my 8,200. Pot is gonna be 17,900 so for my 8,200 I'm getting a bit of odds, and against an all in move from a fella who's as desperate as me I figure it's a stone wall call. Most likely scenarios are A something, and a small pocket. Either way, I need to hit to win but I can't wait all night with the blinds and antis. So it's a call, and I'm all in.

Big blind who's heavily stacked decides to wiegh in which although improving my odds further doesn't make me happier. We show up and I'm JQ clubs, Mr desperate all in is AK off and is looking good, while big stack is A7 which makes his a very strange call. I'm not feeling too bad, just need to hit.

We go to the flop and first card up is the J and Micky is rockin. Last one fo the flop though is the K, and all of a sudden "I'm not singing anymore". we go to the turn and J number two hits, before needless to say the one card which can kick me straight in the nuts whole hazelnuts, the K hits on the river. My JJJKK full house is beaten by the KKKJJ variety. Time for handshakes and feckoffski, as they say in Russia.

Sometimes, it just ain't your night.

by **andy_g** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 9:54 am

for me one of the key lessons in learning poker is not to take a bad beat personally. you do not have any right to win any hand, even if you get dealt AA. if you get beaten, you get beaten and the next hand is another game - although one where you probably have less chips. when i was a beginner i used to throw good chips after bad all the time - you get a bad beat, you get a little vexed about it, and you start betting like an idiot on 2 and 7 unsuited thinking you can get it all back straight away. the key to poker is letting go.

i play online only for play money and see it as just keeping in practice for the live games, where the real fun and action is. i don't get to play live anywhere near as much as i used to, or as much as i'd like to, but there are few ways of having more fun (obviously discounting female company, no clothes and cans of spray cream).

in my last game i folded an 87 playing left of the big blind, several people raised and the pre-flop pot was looking very tasty. guess what the flop was.... yep, 7,8,8 :laugh:

people still go raising like crazy as they've all got 10s, Js and Qs and are fishing for straights. in the end someone wins about 40,000 in chips with a pair of Js on the river or something stupid like that. obviously though, i am seething with the injustice of having folded a full house and possibility of putting 3 players out of the game. the next hand i get KQ and it ends up as a showdown between me and one other guy. i get another KQ on the flop and before i know it we are both all in. he's betting more aggressively than me and i'm not seeing the warning signs because the folded full house is still smarting. he's got three queens. i'm out of the game and 40 euros worse off.

the other conclusion i drew from that game is that its not a good idea to accept an offer of your hosts home made rum at 4am just before playing a couple of big hands...

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 10:55 am

andy_g wrote:the other conclusion i drew from that game is that its not a good idea to accept an offer of your hosts home made rum at 4am just before playing a couple of big hands...

I'm still learning that one Andy. I wouldn't do a lot of things when tanked up, but poker somehow seems like a really sensible option when you can barely see the screen :laugh:

by **dawson99** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 4:39 pm

Poker - brilliant. been playing for years, love it. It's all about lvie games tho, not this internet malarkey.

Have stories as all do. people always rememebr the hands they lose by but never the ones they win with.

i hate JJ by the way, gimme 10J suited tho and im happy

by **Effes** » Fri May 01, 2009 1:32 am

Played 2 tournaments tonight on Full Tilt Poker.

I dont like going in the ones where there's about 4,000 people in, too long and too mad; so I go in the
ones with 90 players in.

1st tournament was $3 I came 4th and won $25.

2nd tournament was $6 I came 2nd and won $88.

My record is quite good lately; 2nd, 4th, 31st, 21st, 7th, 19th, 61st, 3rd, 5th.

Im quids in on my account.

The last table freaks me out a bit, people go all in with all sorts.

by **bigmick** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:22 am

Doesn't sound like you need much advice Eff as you're flying along, but once the table gets short and the blinds are big, you might find it works well to push with almost anything as long as you're the first one to act, and particularly if you've had two or three folds infront of you

Even better if you're not the small stack and by going up against you it'll ask the question. Imagine this scenario, say you've got 10,000 chips (or whatever the number is in your tournaments by final table stage), ther's seven players left and you're in the small blind. Some joker pushes all in with a stack which will either eliminate you or come close to so doing. How good does your hand have to be to call? Aces through 10's maybe, would you call with pocket 5's? Most poeple will be mucking the 9 10's, the 7 8's etc, and most will bin the pocket 2's, 3's and so on. Once people start to smell the prize money (the bubble effect) they get very conservative and normally I find you can muscle a few pots this way, and it's particularly useful if you get a bit short stacked. Once your M (the amount of rounds you can play before elimination by the sum of the blinds) gets below 10, don't feck about ONLY play all ins.

I only play small stakes meself online Eff as you know, and one of my little rules (which I don't stick to all the time :angry:

) is to make all ins, NOT call them towards the end. Push with your Q 10's and the like, even if you run into a monster you've still got a squeek. When I get to the guts end of tourneys, I don't need an awful lot of invitation to pile in. You also gett he added bonus occasionally. Nick a couple of pots with not too much, and then pick up pocket Aces and just push all in pre flop. Somebody sitting with KQ often thinks "feck this I'll show this c...". Worst part about it is of course that they then flop a straight

Still, can't win em all.

by **bigmick** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:24 am

I should say as well that I'm giving you all the advice mate and you're going much better than me just recently so I should probably shut me face. Any tips?

by **Effes** » Fri May 01, 2009 6:51 am

Mick, Ive been playing poker for over 20 years

But what you say is correct, with regards to tactics on the last table.

Just had some bad beats - went on the $12 + $2, just missed out on the last table.

Must remember to go to bed.

No tips tho mate, more than one way to skin a cat.

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