Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:27 pm

It's a shame trophies aren't awarded on calendar years; if they were, 2009 would have been a memorable campaign for Liverpool.

Obviously that's not the way prizes are dished out. But the success in terms of improvement is there for all to see.

I think I'm right in saying that the Reds won more Premier League points than anyone else in 2008. It's also the club's best calendar year since 1990, when they last won the league.

Back then under Kenny Dalglish, it wasn't just landing the title but also an incredible start to the following season; I went to my first game at Anfield in October 1990, as Liverpool beat Derby 2-0 to secure the eighth straight win from the start of the season. So 1990 was no ordinary year.

Of course, the pressures are different when you're going through the 2nd half of the league season without the title at stake, as was the case at the start of 2008, even if trying to secure a top four finish after a difficult winter had its own problems. And as we saw in 1990/91, when the Reds fell away after Kenny Dalgish's resignation, it's not how well you start the season that matters most, but the position in which you end it.

But what this calendar year proves is how consistent Liverpool have become as a league team. And to enter the New Year in such a good position is hugely encouraging. If this doesn't prove to be the Reds' season, at least we're seeing a progression.

Liverpool's home form has been criticised of late, and yet it was an unbeaten 12 months in the league at Anfield. It was also an unbeaten year home and away in the Champions League based on 90-minute group matches and 180-minute knockout ties, against teams like Atletico Madrid, Marseilles, Arsenal, Inter Milan and Chelsea (defeat at Stamford Bridge coming in extra-time).

The biggest bonus over the festive period has been how well the 'squad' players have performed. Ludicrously written off after one nightmare in the Carling Cup, the fringe players have shown that they have real talent and ability. Some are experienced internationals who can't quite be squeezed into the starting XI, others are making their progress from the reserves.

Ryan Babel, whose chances have been limited by the in-form Riera, came in against Newcastle, and scored. Lucas came in for the in-form Alonso, and had his best game in a red shirt. Ngog came on, won a penalty, and had a legitimate goal chalked off.

Emiliano Insua has started the last few matches, and looks like he's been in the team his whole life. Sami Hyppia, meanwhile, just seems to get better and better with age, to give the manager a welcome selection headache now that all four centre-backs are fit.

Like Hyypia, Yossi Benayoun was not featuring much earlier in the season, yet scored a vital goal at Blackburn a few weeks back and set up goals against Bolton and Newcastle. Robbie Keane was out of the frame for a few games, then came in and notched three in five days. And Nabil El Zhar has become a great asset to unleash from the bench.

This is what we wanted, isn't it? Strength in depth being proved with Premier League results?

And yet, despite leading the league, and in spite of injuries to key players, too much of the talk remains about the negative connotations of rotation.

Newcastle away was the perfect example of why some degree of rotation is vital, particularly with the way the Reds play. Yes, there's no league game for a while now, but this away fixture, against a Newcastle side rejuvenated at home, came just 43 hours after the Bolton game ended. If you can't even freshen things up over the hectic festive programme, when can you?

The inclusion of Mascherano and Lucas signalled Liverpool's intent - fast pressing and closing down. High energy, fast tempo. So it was no accident Newcastle were overwhelmed. Despite resting three of the best technical players at the club, Liverpool bossed possession and, quite frankly, could have won by a double-figure margin. When Martin Tyler's Monkey says 9-1 wouldn't have flattered Liverpool, you know it could have been 12-1.

I got a little stick from some quarters for praising Lucas' display at Arsenal, but I thought he was very good that day. I feel I must have seen something those fans hadn't, because he took the basis of that performance and built on it at St James'. He was excellent.

As well as his tackling and closing down, he could have scored three goals and had three assists, but for some remarkable goalkeeping from Shay Given and an unjust offside flag when he presented Ngog with an unmissable chance to make it 6-1. As it was, he produced one of the passes of the season for Gerrard's second, as part of a wonderful one-two.

It also irks me that Liverpool were again described as deploying two holding midfielders. Maybe it's just the term, because when other teams play central midfielders they are just that; but Liverpool's are ‘holding', which implies negativity and caution.

Lucas is far from a holding midfielder. He is a box-to-box midfielder who can get ahead of play, albeit one a little lacking in confidence earlier this season, which may have made him a little less ambitious in his forward movements.

Xabi Alonso is also not a holding midfielder, unless he's paired with Steven Gerrard (in which case it's far from two holding midfielders!). And even then, the Spaniard can carve teams apart with one pass from his own half, and score goals from open play, so it's not like he's in the mould of Claude Makelele.

The only true holding midfielder is Mascherano, and outstanding he is at it, too. Even then, the Argentine was in Newcastle's box to set Benayoun free to create the first goal, so it's not like his role is inflexible and he cannot join attacks. (Damien Plessis is another who most holds, but is of course only at the fringes of the first-team squad at this stage.)

And harking back to another of my bugbears, how outstanding does Steven Gerrard have to be and how many goals does he have to score when playing in the hole to stop being labelled a mere ‘midfielder'? Was Kuyt really the ‘lone striker' at Newcastle? On another day, Gerrard might have had a dozen goals himself from his free attacking role.

So much of the criticism of Liverpool, which continues despite pole position, is about misconceptions. For some people, nothing Benítez does will ever be right. They are like hawks waiting to swoop.

Zonal marking was criticised again, yet it's still worked very well this season, bar a few inevitable blips. If Newcastle were an advert for man-marking, then no thanks! And how did Chelsea's man-marking work out this weekend? It led to conceding two costly goals.

With Rafa's team selections constantly questioned, some of his signings written off, his zonal marking system derided, his substitutions criticised, his man-management castigated, his style branded as too cautious and the strength of his squad doubted, you'd think Liverpool were in the relegation zone, not sitting clear at the top of the Premier League and imperious in Europe – despite the prolonged absence of his main striker, Fernando Torres, who has only started seven league games, and limped off very early in one of those (and naturally lacked sharpness in others).

If Benítez choses to change the system or the personnel, it's with good reason, and not to prove a point or show how clever he is. It's to win games.

I was obviously irritated by the constant talk of Robbie Keane being 'dropped' for the trip to Newcastle, and the regular shots of him on the bench, even when Liverpool were 5-1 up. I'm sorry, but the story was Liverpool winning in style, nothing else.

Keane had run himself into the ground against Bolton, and while more confident as a result of that game, his sharpness could easily have been blunted. Kuyt, whose energy seems boundless and who was taken off on Boxing Day, may not have scored at St James', but look again at how he physically bossed Collocini, and how many chances he was involved in, and you can see why, tactically speaking, it was spot-on.

Against Arsenal, Rafa was criticised for taking Keane off, then in the next game the striker scored two more goals. Against Newcastle Rafa was criticised for omitting him when on top form, yet the Reds scored five away from home. So is the manager not getting things right more often than wrong?

It must be hard for the player, but equally, he's at a massive club, and all of the ‘big four' employ a rotation policy. That's life at the top.

And of course, he can look at the league table and take pride at the part he has played in getting his boyhood favourites three points clear, and know that his good form will help him start more games in the future, even if not the one immediately after a tireless display.

There's a long way to go, and the pressure will mount on the club. But confidence can be taken from the fact that 18 games have been won and only one lost this season (excluding the Carling Cup); the way the goals are being shared around in the absence of Torres; the continued miserly defending, no matter who is in the side; and most of all, that the club are motoring on all major fronts.

Keep it going, and it really could be the season to be merry.

--------------------------------------------------

Although a little too happy clappy for my taste, I think he makes quite a few good points with this latest effort, and addresses some of the points that we discuss endlessly on here. Certainly a huge improvement on some of his fact/fiction efforts earlier in the season.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:34 pm

Ah S@int I can't be bothered reading it mate TBH. I'll take your word for it, I'm sure it's excellent.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:36 pm

I'm just glad I didn't spend all day writing it like that poor bugger Tomkins did then

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:45 pm

I'm going to guess what's in it, without reading it. It's more fun. I should think he is saying that despite what people claim, we are actually rotating more than last season and in any case, the only reason we rotated previously and it didn't work was because Lucas was younger, we didn't have Riera or Keane etc etc. There has been no change of policy, in actual fact the policy was right all along it's only now that we have the right players that it's working.

He probably mentions the fact that the under 14's are unbeaten this season, and the star striker who was snapped up from a Lithuanian team last season is absolutely flying. The whole team is littered with superstars in the making, and in eight years time we'll be flying. No doubt he agrees with the leaving out of Keane, "tactical masterstroke" and all that. Despite me predicting on here that it was only a matter of time before someone claimed that keanes recent form is actually BECAUSE of the way Rafa has handled him, to my disappointment nobody has yet to the best of my knowledge. If Tompkins hasn't here, he will soon you mark my words.

What else? Well he probably says that in Lucas and Babel they are superstars on the cusp of greatness, and accuses those who have said that we have previously overdone the rotation were also against zonal marking, that's one of his favourites.

And he probably thinks that if we don't win the league this season, we will over the next ten years or so. Good luck to the bloke, good post.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:48 pm

Whatever happened to his classic in the season when we came fourth I think it was. You know the one where he said that if the league games were over two legs, and you recaulculated the points based on such a scenario, we would actually be champions

You gotta love the bloke you really do.

by **bigmick** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:57 pm

I've just read it, and to be fair to him it's one of his better efforts. There aren't any really funny bits in from what I could see which is something of a disappointment if I'm honest. Anyway good luck to the bloke, and in the unlikely event that he ever logs on here, I hope he has a happy new year.

by **Ciggy** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:00 am

bigmick wrote:I've just read it, and to be fair to him it's one of his better efforts. There aren't any really funny bits in from what I could see which is something of a disappointment if I'm honest. Anyway good luck to the bloke, and in the unlikely event that he ever logs on here, I hope he has a happy new year.

He logged on here once and gave St Mick a bollockin for copying & pasting his posts :laugh:

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:13 am

s@int wrote:With Rafa's team selections constantly questioned, some of his signings written off, his zonal marking system derided, his substitutions criticised, his man-management castigated, his style branded as too cautious and the strength of his squad doubted, you'd think Liverpool were in the relegation zone, not sitting clear at the top of the Premier League and imperious in Europe – despite the prolonged absence of his main striker, Fernando Torres, who has only started seven league games, and limped off very early in one of those (and naturally lacked sharpness in others).

If Benítez choses to change the system or the personnel, it's with good reason, and not to prove a point or show how clever he is. It's to win games.

To be honest, I think he has been reading on here and this bit's aimed at Stu.

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:31 am

With all due respect Bigmick, it wouldn't take much more effort to actually read the article rather than guessing and posting

Xabi Alonso is also not a holding midfielder, unless he's paired with Steven Gerrard (in which case it's far from two holding midfielders!). And even then, the Spaniard can carve teams apart with one pass from his own half, and score goals from open play, so it's not like he's in the mould of Claude Makelele.

The only true holding midfielder is Mascherano, and outstanding he is at it, too. Even then, the Argentine was in Newcastle's box to set Benayoun free to create the first goal, so it's not like his role is inflexible and he cannot join attacks. (Damien Plessis is another who most holds, but is of course only at the fringes of the first-team squad at this stage.)

See? here he admits this season Xabi's role has changed most of the games, a fact that you were among the first to spot this season, and you were the first to ASK for it yesteryear.

And with hindsight, I must say you were right in that demand.

So, if it's not much to ask, do read it mate, I'm sure your contribution will be healthy to the thread.

Newcastle away was the perfect example of why some degree of rotation is vital, particularly with the way the Reds play. Yes, there's no league game for a while now, but this away fixture, against a Newcastle side rejuvenated at home, came just 43 hours after the Bolton game ended. If you can't even freshen things up over the hectic festive programme, when can you?

Yes, you might have to face a question like the one I highlight, but in the other hand, you must be tired of Sabre's old points in the rotation thread. Try this Tompkins question instead.

I'm sure it will be as fun as guessing what he said!

I've just read it,

Ooops, just read you already read it. Nice one

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:54 am

Sabre wrote:
Newcastle away was the perfect example of why some degree of rotation is vital, particularly with the way the Reds play. Yes, there's no league game for a while now, but this away fixture, against a Newcastle side rejuvenated at home, came just 43 hours after the Bolton game ended. If you can't even freshen things up over the hectic festive programme, when can you?

Yes, you might have to face a question like the one I highlight, but in the other hand, you must be tired of Sabre's old points in the rotation thread. Try this Tompkins question instead.

"Resting" Alonso was one thing, Riera even. As it turned out, we could probably have rested Gerrard as well and still won the game. We could certainly have stuck Leon in goal and still won it, but I guess we weren't to know that before the game.

There are two points though with the omission of keane which make it totally different to the other players (with the obvious discalaimer here that we are making the assumption he isn't injured).

Firstly, it's worth pointing out that previous to the two games which preceded the Newcastle game, he had been rested/rotated/sat on his erse/taught a lesson for two consecutive matches. Now whilst I accept that I'm not at Melwood, not privvy to his body fat ratio index and all that old nonsense, I would argue that the chances of Keane being "tired" or "jaded" or "lacking sharpness" after a cruisy Home win against Bolton are somewhere close to zero. If he was any of those "fatigue" words after two games in three weeks or whatever he's played, and after a season where he's barely completed a full 90 minutes throughout it's whole course, then we should look at a new fitness trainer. Failing that we should put him on the same fitness regime as Kuyt, or Gerrard, or Carragher who seem to be able to play every game no bother.

Anyhow, that is not the main reason why IMHo it was silly to drop Keane. It was silly to drop him, as I've said probably twenty five times now, because he was in the beginning of a rich vein of scoring and it would have made sense to let him continue it. Infact, once we had seen how bad Newcastle were, it would have made sense to get him on sharpish as I'm fairly certain that given half an hour or so he would have scored a goal. Any genuine striker playing for us would have scored a goal against them. But? Yes, I know.

by **Sabre** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:18 am

I always agreed the notion that a striker that is in fire should play.

But, one thing is that one sunday, Keane scores twice, and the next sunday, Keane doesn't play. That would be strange for me, or what some people call silly.

But a game in 43 hours, is a different situation, and this is where we seem to disagree (1). I don't think Keane's confidence, assuming the communication with his manager is normal, has gone down one iota. Similarly, if he played yesterday and was rested against Preston, he wouldn't stop being confident and feeling like scoring.

So you see, I agree the notion, but not under all the circunstances, and this is where we agree to disagree and no problem. But I wanted to make clear I understand and agree the notion that a player in a good streak must be used, under normal circunstances.

This was a Crimbo special.

(1) P.S. Of course, I understand it IF Keane ended very tired, not using Kuyt for the sake of giving him minutes. Keane is better option than Kuyt, but Keane at his 70% might not be.

by **Zidane** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:53 am

Nice read.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:59 am

One thing I am curious about Mick. We won 5-1 in our last game ...... should we rotate and bring back Keane, Alonso and Riera or stick with the team that won so convincingly and has confidence and momentum behind them ?

by **bigmick** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:07 am

s@int wrote:One thing I am curious about Mick. We won 5-1 in our last game ...... should we rotate and bring back Keane, Alonso and Riera or stick with the team that won so convincingly and has confidence and momentum behind them ?

Good point S@int

I think we should probably not play Torres if fit either as it would disrupt our fluency.

Probably the best way of looking at it, is that if we were to play teams of a similar ilk to Newcastle as they were against us from here on in, we are already champions. Infact not only are we already Champions, but I want a game before the seasons out

This is the thing which I don't get about the "but we won 5-1" argument that I've had over the last few days. Beating Newcastle 5-1 confirms that we didn't lose any points as a result of the styling on this occasion. We didn't though gain from it as far as our 20 million quid striker is concerned. Time will tell if that is an opportunity wasted or an irrelevence.

I fear we may find out fairly soon S@int, as I have a hunch we are about to leave the "seen the light" phase and move into what will become known as the "dimmer switch" era.

by **fivecups** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:13 am

Fantastic read. Tomkins has the knack of often writing what I think but am unable to articulate.

I'm happy as f*ck at the minute. I always felt that if we were in contention this season come April that would be progress and I would be happy - looks like we're going to achieve that and possibly more. We've only lost match so far - and we should have won it. Until Christmas I thought we we're lacking a really dominant victory. We've now had 2 against Bolton and especially Newcastle. 5-1 away from home. Superb against a resurgent side whose home form prior to our match was WWDDW.

I like many others couldn't believe Keane didn't start on Sunday - I perceived it as a gamble. With the benefit of hindsight there was no gamble at all. We could have played that match a hundred times with our starting 11 and won every time. I didn't realise that before the match but that's why I'm not manager of a premiership club. I don't think it will knock Robbie's confidence that much either. He's still scored 3 goals in his last 2 games. The whole club will be engulfed in confidence at the minute and when he next plays he'll believe he can score a hatful.

With recent performances I'm starting to believe we can actually win the league. It's been a long time since I felt like that at this stage of the season. So, I'm going to enjoy it to f*ck!.

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