Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

The fecking barsterd it was a Micky special as well. I went into some detail on this notion of us being a worse "team" in some respects now we've got two World Class outfield players as opposed to one, and also the cleverness of arsenal going with youth mixed in with clever signings like Gallas. I'll try that copying trick though. You always fear the worst when you type for ten minutes and then hit quick post, only to see the little green pips go from one to two at a funerial rate. "Don't even think about it you fecking barstard!" is followed by "you c...!" as you get the inevitable page telling you it's not gonna happen. I'll try that copy thing though thanks for that mate.

[Bad Bob]

The fecking barsterd it was a Micky special as well. I went into some detail on this notion of us being a worse "team" in some respects now we've got two World Class outfield players as opposed to one, and also the cleverness of arsenal going with youth mixed in with clever signings like Gallas. I'll try that copying trick though. You always fear the worst when you type for ten minutes and then hit quick post, only to see the little green pips go from one to two at a funerial rate. "Don't even think about it you fecking barstard!" is followed by "you c...!" as you get the inevitable page telling you it's not gonna happen. I'll try that copy thing though thanks for that mate.

That's what the big green arrow in the top left of the browser's for mate!   It'll take you back to the "reply" screen where your post magically awaits resending.  That's why we get so many double posts on here, as people panic when it takes a second or two to load their response and they use the back button to send it out there again.

(Ahh, feck me, I can't believe I'm actually helping Mick post these disquisitions of his! )

[bigmick]

Big green arrow WTF (the first word is where on this occasion) is that Cheers Bob BTW but you'll regret it mate next time I do a massive post

[account deleted by request]

My name is Emlyn
Kemlynite

Offline

Gender:
Posts: 87



   Re: Kewell Back vs. Crewe this weekend
« Reply #102 on: September 12, 2007, 10:48:41 PM » 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: Shaggy Alonso on September 12, 2007, 09:21:44 PM
Really? Didn't know about that now. Could someone shed some light on this?

Physio misdiagnosed his groin injury. They were actually treating his groin rather than the cause of the groin injury. This was around the time that the press was being a bit mischievious and quoted rafa as saying he was fit and ready while Kewell was quoted as saying he was injured. Anyway a physio was sacked and Harry got better...until the injury in the FA Cup final and then another one in the world cup.


RAWK

I haven't given up the search for the original article, but hopefully this shows I haven't got Alzehimers yet

For someone who has hardly played for years he has an incredible number of threads started about him.

[Bad Bob]

Big green arrow WTF (the first word is where on this occasion) is that Cheers Bob BTW but you'll regret it mate next time I do a massive post

Top left of your screen, mate.  It's the back button under the word "File".  It's green on my browser (Firefox) but I'm sure it's blue on internet explorer.  Anyhoo, the next time you try to post and end up getting a screen that says it's timed out or not responding or whatever, just hit that it arrow and it will take you back to the message you were composing.  Then, you can send it again or do what LFC2007 suggests and copy the message (you can always paste it into a Word doc for safe keeping).  Happy posting, mate!

[Kharhaz]

Big green arrow WTF (the first word is where on this occasion) is that Cheers Bob BTW but you'll regret it mate next time I do a massive post

Top left of your screen, mate.  It's the back button under the word "File".  It's green on my browser (Firefox) but I'm sure it's blue on internet explorer.  Anyhoo, the next time you try to post and end up getting a screen that says it's timed out or not responding or whatever, just hit that it arrow and it will take you back to the message you were composing.  Then, you can send it again or do what LFC2007 suggests and copy the message (you can always paste it into a Word doc for safe keeping).  Happy posting, mate!

Or just pop the cork into ya bottle of wine and call it a night !

[bigmick]

Or just pop the cork into ya bottle of wine and call it a night !

Now there's an idea, I could murder a bit of kip.  That said, it's just gone 20 past four on Tuesday afternoon here mate and even I aren't that lazy.

[Penguins]

Fergie did have a fantastic head start...not much exageration there IMO...

2001/2002 English Premier Table

  P HW HD HL HGF HGA AW AD AL AGF AGA Points GD
Arsenal 38 12 4 3 42 25 14 5 0 37 11 87 +43
Liverpool 38 12 5 2 33 14 12 3 4 34 16 80 +37
Man Utd 38 11 2 6 40 17 13 3 3 47 28 77 +42

So I think we can say in 2002 we had caught up on the mancs, even with all there experienced players. The fact that we didn't kick on and they did is for another thread and another discussion.

Now we are talking of a max of 2003-2008 not 1992 - 2008

My argument is with this by Tompkins:-

Again, Ferguson hasn’t had to spend as much between 2004 and the present day because of players like Giggs, Scholes and Neville, who only came into the team five-ten years after Ferguson took charge.

What I am saying is Neither did Rafa because of Gerrard,Carra,Hamann,Riise,Finnan,Hyypia,Kewell

and this :-

From the Houllier era we only had the legacy of Gerrard and Carra, that could be counted as key player, the other players are either decent or good but not key ones, not match winners. It's a fact we didn't have those match winners back then

Thats rubbish.....Matchwinners - we had three when Rafa took over Kewell, Gerrard, Owen. We only have two now Gerrard and Torres with Kewell down as a possible.

Remember it was It wasn't Houlliers fault that Kewell was injured and the injury was misdiagnosed and became much worse. (edited to keep leon smiling)

I think Gerrard, Carra and Hyypia could be counted as key players since Rafa has been here, and maybe Finnan too seeing as Rafa has never managed to find an adequate replacement for him till this season. Hamann was a key player in two finals under Rafa too don't forget.

I don't think its reasonable to ignore or dismiss players of that quality when assessing just what Rafa had to to start with. He didn't start with nothing he started with a team that had just come 4th from the top while the mancs finished 3rd not top.

What I am saying but obviously not very well or clearly is that Rafa had a reasonable team with some very good players when he took over, not a load of cr@p that were worthless. Which seems to be the point that Tompkins and Sabre seem to be making.

Well, even if we "might" have caught up 2002 Houllier spent £50 million and improved our team 0% in his final 2 years.

Manure only got Ronaldo, Saha, Rooney while Houiller got
Diouf, Diao, Cheyrou etc etc.
Maybe that helped them just a little....?

And I obviously see things differently about how things are and not "what might be" as Gerrard in my eyes were the only
match winner we had.
Putting blame on a physio or whatever doesn't change the fact the kewell never was a key player since 2003/2004.
And even when Kewell has played he has like 3 goals in 50 games? Stop thinking Leeds and think now when it comes to him!
A player never available can never be a key player. At least I think so. And please, Owen? Was that a joke?
A match winner he might had been but never gave Rafa a chance for his Liverpool team. Can not be counted as key player Rafa inherited since he was gone before Rafa could do anything.

And about the team he inherited....
First of all there was almost no money available since Houllier already had spent the summer budget. One more important fact of note. The players outside the 1st 11 were of very poor quality which meant the depth of the squad had to be fixed.

1. Dudek. 1 great game and all is forgiven. Is that it? Forget about his poor PL displays through the years and many fans already said before the final he was just not stable or good enough. Reina is the 1st goalie in like 15 years which has been good enough.

2. Finnan. Sure, he has been solid and mr dependable over the years, but I still think this "best rb in the league 15 years running" is over the top. He is very solid defensivly but offers very little going forward and his pace is so so. Also he was 28 already at the time so a replacement has been needed since.
Rafa's 1st choice like always was not allowed to come though.

3. Carra sure has a big Liverpool heart and reads the plays well defensivly, but there has to be some reason why he has always been outside of the English starting 11. I don't buy that it's just beacuse of dislike and hate etc. he is only bested by Momo in his woeful passing and only by Kuyt for his lack of pace. Not only that not until Rafa took over did he became a "key player" which is conviniently forgotten.
Not until Rafa moved him to the center did his best qualities show. I credit rafa for making Carra such a good player for us.

4. Hyppia was a good buy and has served us well. Sure, he like Carra was also a player good enough, but was already 30 years by then!
That meant he couldn't be counted on in Rafa's future team. That he is still is here now I put down to injures and not enough money to buy a CB. And with Hyppia and Carra you do get a nice defensive combo but both have 0 pace which force us to play further back. Making Hyppia a key player is a stretch.
Just because he pulls on a Liverpool sweater doesn't make him world class.

5. Risse is a decent player but has been in decline the last couple of seasons and if the funds were there I'm sure he'd be long gone.

6. Smicer was already 31 and a non factor since it was his final year and had no future. A decent player, nothing more.

7. Kewell I have already said my piece about. A non factor with all his injuries. Physio or no physio, I don't blame rafa for ruining this "star player".

8. Gerrard now like then a great player who singlehandedly got us 4th that year. 6-7th place without him which says everything!

9. Hamann. Exactly like Hyppia. Had been a nice player for us but he was 30 already fgs! No player for the future and it was obvious for Rafa that Gerrard was the only CM we had good enough going forward.

10. Baros. Sure, no worse that Kuyt. But then again Kuyt isn't good enough either.

11. Cisse. A horrible buy at £14 M! and even tough he has pace and knows how to head at least that is way too much money. No worse that Kuyt. But then again....


Le tallec and Pongolle, decent players, but just a disaster at overpaying for 2 teenagers.

Cheyrou. ZZZ. Waste of space and wages. Traore...? Diao..?
Diouf...?

Is it even worth mentioning any other players?

And one thing I am strongly opposed is those who say our current squad is just as strong as anyone. Always overvaluing the players cause they wear the red sweater. Objectivness please!

Comparing with the other top teams:

Reina is a very good goalie but I think all but Arsenal have a comparable one.

Our defense is not getting younger and is beyond any doubt the worst going forward since noone can pass (besides Agger) and noone has pace (besides Agger). Carra is 30, Hyppia 34, Finnan 32 etc, Aurelio 30 etc. Do we have any replacements? Agger... then nothing. Other team are much better at playing themselves out from defense with ease.
Take away our fullbacks and let our CB's do the plays is a recipe for disaster with no Agger.

We may have the best centre midfield but what does that help when our wingers are beyond any doubt the worst.
Took awhile for some to realise that Momo wasn't the next Viera and can't be dependant on any more. Alonso hasn't been good for almost 2 years now or produced the same form since then. Mash is great at defending but only Gerrard produce going forward from our CM. Babel is no winger. Benayoun is no winger. We desperately need real wingers who produce since we get little offense from the middle.
Pennant won't get us to the promised land...
Altogther we do not have the best midfield compared to the other 3. Those one on the flanks aren't less important than the center!

And our strikers...
It's it obvious we only have 1 starter and that is Torres.
Crouch is good as a sub since he offers different things and helps to change things late in the game. Kuyt and Voronin are just not anywhere near good enough. 4th best without a doubt even if we might have the best one. But that will get us nowhere.

But sure, why not sack Rafa and expect another 5 year plan, with the same funds. Since we are Liverpool football club it must be the manager and not that our rival clubs gets millions more each game and can spend milliions more each summer.

Money means nothing and with O'Niell and Klinsmann we can sure do better than Rafa has done....

For all Rafa's faults nice and slow is the way forward. It isn't his fault it was 18 years ago now. Let us at least see what he is trying to build. This summer was the 1st time ever he got 1st choice players fgs! How many times have you heard before Torres that another manager admitted they were also interested in a player we bought??
15 million a season before that had to be enough to both increase the quality of the squad and the depth. That is pocket money these days.
Now that he could spend a little more letting the players adapt is not acceptable, only instant success is good enough it seems.

[66-1112520797]

It amazes me how people STILL blame Houllier, and its like the rose brigade still blame him for Rafa's downfalls.

Rafa has been here four years, spent "Loads a money" inherited some really good players, players that he still uses today. Riise, Finnan, Hyypia, Carra, Hamman, Gerrard and Kewell ?  .

Yet we're still nowhere nearer winning the league than when we were with Houllier in charge. FACT.

[Penguins]

It amazes me how people STILL blame Houllier, and its like the rose brigade still blame him for Rafa's downfalls.

Rafa has been here four years, spent "Loads a money" inherited some really good players, players that he still uses today. Riise, Finnan, Hyypia, Carra, Hamman, Gerrard and Kewell ?  .

Yet we're still nowhere nearer winning the league than when we were with Houllier in charge. FACT.

Calling Risse a really good player makes me wonder what standards you set....

And the age of those really good players??
All of them except Gerrard closer to 30 than 25 which says everything.

With no way of us getting a PL title the 1st 2-3 years with Rafa in charge all but Carra and Gerrard will not be of use when the time comes to fight for the title. Kewell does not count when he is never available. For example having world class like Torres helps nothing if he is injured 9 months a year.

That means besides Gerrard and Carra a title winning squad would had to be build from the ground up since nothing else was there!
15 million a year to get a title winning squad arund 20 players?
You sure are a joker.

And Houllier was awful the last 2 seasons. FACT
We won jack all and he spent 50 million on and we moved 0 forward as a club.

[66-1112520797]

Calling Risse a really good player makes me wonder what standards you set....

Well he still gets alot of playing time under Rafa.

And the age of those really good players??
All of them except Gerrard closer to 30 than 25 which says everything.

So what, your now blaming Houllier for ageing players, f.uck in ell. Rafa still had those players in there prime a few years back. But lets blame Houllier and nature because people get older year by year.

With no way of us getting a PL title the 1st 2-3 years with Rafa in charge all but Carra and Gerrard will not be of use when the time comes to fight for the title. Kewell does not count when he is never available. For example having world class like Torres helps nothing if he is injured 9 months a year.

I'm even wondering if carra of Gerrard will see a title.

15 million a year to get a title winning squad arund 20 players?
You sure are a joker.

That sum you've produced out of your @rsehole, equates to spending 60 million in his tenure, try looking closer at 150 million, then you'll see who the joker is.

And Houllier was awful the last 2 seasons. FACT
We won jack all and he spent 50 million on  and we moved 0 forward as a club. 
Back to top

Coming to the end of his reign as Liverpool manager Houllier did lose the plot, and he did waste money. Comparisons, if these rumours are true about Rafa's future that they could be his last as manager of LFC. So four years down the track when we get some other bloke in charge, it'll be okay to blame Rafa for our future mangers downfall, is that right ?
I'm sure we can all play the blame game and bury our heads in the sand and say Rafa spent 10 milion on Kuyt, 11 on Babel, 6.3 on Morientes blah blah blah blah blah.
Instead of trying to address the situation at the present point in time, we can all blame the manager before him, YAY !

[bigmick]

Yes trying to blame the previous management for the current situation is just plain daft. If it were the case that Rafa had had to rebuild the whole starting eleven (in a similar fashion to the way Wenger has now got a completely different team to the one which went the whole season unbeaten three seasons ago) I could understand the gripe, but he hasn't so it doesn't make sense. As has been stated many times, at least three or four out of every team he fields even today was left for him so there's no case to answer. It could equally be argued (although it's feck all to do with Houllier) that Rafa has been fortunate to have at his disposal the best midfielder in the Premiership over his whole tenure, and he didn't have to break the bank to get him either.

Another point surely, is that as we are constantly reminded whenever anyone dares to criticise, we achieved a record points total two years ago. Now if people are going to bandy about such facts, they must surely take it on the chin when the question is asked whether in that case we have gone backwards since those heady days. Clearly, whatever has happened between the Champions League win, the FA Cup win, the record points total and now, is nothing to do with any previous management so I wish people would just let that go.

This is why I keep going on about direction. With the greatest respect to all of us on here, people can make excuses or can criticise all they want and although we can disagree with each other, it makes no difference really. Within the club though, if we are deluding ourselves within the inner sanctum that we haven't made some very serious mistakes then we are in deeper trouble than it looks. Just for once, even if not publicly I'd like the management top learn from a few mistakes and take action so as to minimise the risk of them happening again. If we really are going to proceed with a "we wuz unlucky", "it's just because we missed a few chances", "the refs robbed us", "we dominated every game we played in", "it was the injuries" mantra, then we are going to be in a dark hole for a very long time indeed.

For my part, I thought for a long time when we played against arsenal at Home that were going to hold on for a win. Lets be perfectly honest though, there was a chasm between the two teams on the day. Disloyal to admit that? maybe but that's how I saw it. Put it this way, if we were to play them ten times at the moment, how many would we win? Unlucky against man Utd? Not for me. They actually reminded me of the good Liverpool teams of the eighties. Came, saw, got the job done. I got the distinct impression they had us covered and that if we'd have scored, they'd have scored again.

It hurts me to say that, but it's the truth and in my view we are deluding ourselves if we think otherwise. To be perfectly honest, it bores me all this sh!t about whose fault it is as well. Make it my fault if you want but I'll tell you this, until we look at the situation objectively and admit the reality of it, we'll never close that gap. Rafa can stay if he wants, fair play to the fella. So long as he stops fecking around with the team, the formation, the positions etc etc and when he buys players he makes an attempt top build a first team, he can stay as long as he wants for me. Step one though of closing the gap between us and the top two (and there'll be a gap between us and third by the seasons end) is honest appraisal. If we don't see and accept where we are going wrong we'll keep doing it, and that is truly a road to absolutely nowhere.

[Big Niall]

I think Rafa is better than Houllier (who wouldn't be) but he has spent a lot of money and has us no nearer winning the league. I think he is far behind of the other three as

Ferguson - won about nine leagues - nuff said
Mourinho - won two in just three years, second other year, unbeaten at home

Wenger - has built some great flair winning teams for very little net spend(i.e. take his sales into account). Arsenal are better than LFC but how much did all those young unheard of Africans cost?

All three are much better than Rafa, the only Rafa defence is his cup win which Wenger hasn't had - but luck plays a big part in cup success.

[tubby]

Forget all these stats the figures of who spent what. The fact of the matter remains that we all thought that Rafa for all his tactical genius would be able to win the league on a semi limited budget  but we have all seen that in the world of football managers he is just as human as the rest of them and is prone to errors in judgment. No doubt the added cash available he ahd in the summer would bring on extra preassure. So what now? Sack him? No that would be silly and a new manager would expect to buy a few new players anyway.

HE SHOULD BE GIVEN LOADS OF MONEY TO SPLASH OUT ON WHOEVER HE WANTS

At least that’s one thing we havent tried anyway and quite frankly im sick of watching us go for the 2nd best option that’s available to us and having out title ambitions thrown out the window only a few months into the season. Some will say it was over last weekend but in my eyes it was over before it had even started.

[account deleted by request]

TOMKINS: IN PRAISE OF A WORLD-CLASS SPANIARD
Paul Eaton 08 January 2008 
  It's an end of the pitch where the difference is made, and an area where Benítez got it spot-on when winning La Liga. Get it right in this position, and you can win trophies and titles. 


Yes, step forward Pepe Reina: to my mind quite possibly the best goalkeeper Liverpool have ever had. (Oh, and that lad Torres isn't bad either, at the other end of the pitch.)
 
I've heard Benítez say that praise can weaken you, and in many ways that is true; certainly when it comes to the first flush of success. But on the whole he doesn't buy weak characters who are prone to having their heads turned by a few kind words. And while Torres is winning the headlines, Reina, with a phenomenal 49 clean sheets in 87 Premiership matches, deserves all the plaudits that come his way.
 
If a striker had 49 goals from 87 games (plus plenty more in the Champions League) you'd call him world-class. But of course, a keeper can obviously only keep a maximum of one clean sheet per game, not to mention that in some matches he will have no chance of stopping a goal. So to have a rate far better than one every two games is outstanding. (Then again, he could get a clean sheet without ever making a save but I imagine such instances are rare.)
 
Reina will be the first to admit that the defence, midfield and even attack play their part, but they'd also point out how much they can relax with him behind them.
 
For me, he mixes Grobbelaar's gymnastic agility with Clemence's concentration and composure. But he also –– and this is a crucial distinction over any of his forebears –– has a fair bit of Jan Molby's ability with the ball at his feet. His inch-perfect passing from the back, along with his super-quick thinking, is a big factor in turning defence into attack. It sets him apart from the rest.
 
While he's no midget, the only thing he lacks to make him truly invincible is the really imposing frame of a taller keeper such as David James. (Or, indeed, the girth of Molby: with which he could quite literally fill the goal.)
 
Last season Reina made a couple of bad mistakes, as do all keepers, but Petr Cech has made as many gaffs in his last two games as did Reina all season. Over his two and a half seasons, the Spanish keeper has made precious few serious errors, and is on course for his third successive pair of Golden Gloves for the most clean sheets.
 
Let's also not forget the manager's role in organising the defence at set-pieces. Despite a couple of goals conceded from free-kicks recently, for the first time in the league this season (a situation not helped by the absence of Hyypia as well as Agger to injury, and Crouch to suspension, and also due to some poor clearances more than marking issues). The zonal marking system still has a remarkable record for the Reds. Chelsea have been leaking goals from bad man-marking, United conceded two in one game at West Ham, and Spurs have conceded five in their last two matches.
 
It's very difficult to foretell who will be a success, and to what degree. I've been wrong about players before, as I'm sure everyone has. I felt Cissé and Morientes could succeed; I still don't think either were ‘failures', given that the former scored a decent amount of goals and played a part in the European and FA Cup successes, as well as the 82-point league haul, while Morientes played his part in the latter two of those three achievements. But Cissé never lived up to his price tag and potential, and Morientes never lived up to his reputation.
 
But with Fernando Torres I felt the most certain I've ever been of any player succeeding. Having said that, I still thought it would take him longer than it has to settle. So that's been a bonus. Other big signings, like Collymore, Clough and Diouf started brightly only to ultimately fail, but no-one has started their Liverpool career this well for years, spread over half a season. And it's no fluke.
 
I feared I might have gone too far over the summer in comparing him with Thierry Henry, and while they are different players (despite some similarities), Torres has the ability merit the comparison. Now he has to show the Frenchman's consistency, season after season.
 
The Christmas period, and the Manchester City game in particular, has perhaps shown one of the toughest parts of adapting to life in England: lots of games in quick succession. Even Sam Allardyce, a stereotypically old-style English centre-half from the ‘70s and ‘80s as a player, but one who tries to adopt an enlightened modern approach as a manager, says that there is too much football played at this time of year, and that you wouldn't ask the same of racehorses.
 
Being a striker is all about lots of movement, whereas being a defender is often about taking a few steps here and there; reading the game, rather than running. So strikers feel it more. While Torres coped well on the whole, scoring three goals in four festive games, he wasn't as devastating as he can be.
 
Of all Torres' many qualities, my favourite aspect of his game is the way he takes the ball onto his left side, despite being right-footed. Sometimes he'll do it to get away a left-foot shot, other times he'll still use his right foot. When he does use his left, he can score goals, as he has against Derby, Reading and Fulham.
 
One-footedness, and a proclivity to do anything possible to use the favoured foot, is a weakness in football. Some can get away with it: Patrik Berger was perhaps the best I've seen when it comes to a Liverpool player somehow working space to shoot on his favoured side, but if he'd used his right foot as well, he'd have been even better.
 
Torres' very first Liverpool goal, against Chelsea, summed up his unpredictability: the position of the ball clearly favoured a left-foot shot. But the problem was that doing so would take the ball closer to Cech, and any curl would possibly take it wide of the post; a right-foot shot could have the ball curl past the keeper and in towards the far post. Which is what he did. To perfection.
 
At the time I feared the finish (unlike the way he beat the defender) was less a clever decision and more a case of the Spaniard wanting it on his favoured foot. But the more I see of him, the more assured I am that it was sublime thinking, and that he'll always use the foot that the situation requires. For me, this is one of the most important things in a striker. It makes him impossible to suss out. While Torres' form may dip from time to time, he's as far from a one-dimensional forward as you can get.
 
How many times has he faced a defender and turned him square-on, only to breeze past him to the left? As well as the Chelsea goal, there was the run for the opening goal against Portsmouth, and the superb individual strike at Pride Park. The defenders know that they must stop him running onto his right foot, as he can do what he did in Marseilles: drift past players in the blink of an eye and finish with supreme accuracy. But that leaves them open to a left-side burst.
 
The willingness to use his left foot not only bamboozles defenders, but it also doesn't allow keepers to set themselves. His goal against Fulham came from an early left-foot shot. Against Derby at Anfield he also pulled a shot back across the keeper with his left foot.
 
Sixteen goals at the halfway point for a player who doesn't take penalties (unlike the others in the top-scorers' chart) is a great return, particularly as he's also missed quite a few games through injury.
 
I had a lot of correspondence about Torres over the summer, with fans expressing their doubts. But for me there was never any question he was the real deal. The comparisons with Morientes were as lame as you could get: both talented Spanish strikers called Fernando, but one infinitely more suited to English football.
 
Sometimes you have to pay a lot of money for top quality. But even at £20m, Fernando Torres looks a bargain. Other times you can find a gem for a far cheaper fee, as was the case with Pepe Reina, at just £6m. With these two young Spaniards, the Reds' should have years of success at both ends of the pitch.

A much better article by Tompkins, or maybe its just that I agree with most of this one