Liverpool FC Forum

by **JBG** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:55 pm

Ciggy wrote:One last question JBG where the bleedin hell did you get bob Grumbine and his picture from

Perhaps the question should be where the bleedin hell did Bob get JBG from? :idea

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:29 pm

In the interests of constructive dialogue rather than sticking the boot in when it comes to the original discussion, I've read a passage this morning that sums up most of my concerns about how many of us in the developed world conceptualize people in the developing world:

"Human beings share with many other social animals the ability to discriminate between one's own and other groups, but to legitimize this distinction in terms of moral evaluation is probably uniquely human. The Other [academic-speak for peoples of other cultures/societies] has always been important in order not only to define ourselves as human beings...but also to put forward claims of a moral order.

The Other is frequently portrayed in negative ways in order both to build a positive self-identity and to legitimize one's own superiority and even conquest and domination of the less "civilized." From this comes the widespread idea of the savage or barbaric outsider or stranger. There has been a tendency to describe an "Ignoble" Other in terms of what they lack--depicting them as filthy and ignorant people hardly living better lives than beasts....Such a view has legitimized both physical extermination as well as military conquest and attempts to "civilize" the Other." -- Arne Kalland, "Environmentalism and Images of the Other," 2003

----

My main concern is that depicting peoples of the 3rd World as poor primitives leading pointless lives of desperation serves to justify anything we might wish to do to them. In the past, that involved coming in and taking their resources, herding them onto reserves to open space for settlers, turning them into slaves to do our grunt work for us and waging war on them if they had the temerity to resist. To my mind, establishing a program of 3rd World organ harvesting--whether forced or 'voluntary'--is just a continuation of the Social Darwinian thinking that was used to justify all of our (yes, we did it Canada too) colonial ventures in the past. "We matter more than you" has been one of the most divisive and damaging attitudes in the history of human civilization because it, not only condones, but compels the powerful to run roughshod over the less powerful without a thought to the damage they are doing. The ends justify the means? Not in my book.

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:32 pm

Bad Bob wrote:In the interests of constructive dialogue rather than sticking the boot in when it comes to the original discussion, I've read a passage this morning that sums up most of my concerns about how many of us in the developed world conceptualize people in the developing world:

"Human beings share with many other social animals the ability to discriminate between one's own and other groups, but to legitimize this distinction in terms of moral evaluation is probably uniquely human. The Other [academic-speak for peoples of other cultures/societies] has always been important in order not only to define ourselves as human beings...but also to put forward claims of a moral order.

The Other is frequently portrayed in negative ways in order both to build a positive self-identity and to legitimize one's own superiority and even conquest and domination of the less "civilized." From this comes the widespread idea of the savage or barbaric outsider or stranger. There has been a tendency to describe an "Ignoble" Other in terms of what they lack--depicting them as filthy and ignorant people hardly living better lives than beasts....Such a view has legitimized both physical extermination as well as military conquest and attempts to "civilize" the Other." -- Arne Kalland, "Environmentalism and Images of the Other," 2003

----

My main concern is that depicting peoples of the 3rd World as poor primitives leading pointless lives of desperation serves to justify anything we might wish to do to them. In the past, that involved coming in and taking their resources, herding them onto reserves to open space for settlers, turning them into slaves to do our grunt work for us and waging war on them if they had the temerity to resist. To my mind, establishing a program of 3rd World organ harvesting--whether forced or 'voluntary'--is just a continuation of the Social Darwinian thinking that was used to justify all of our (yes, we did it Canada too) colonial ventures in the past. "We matter more than you" has been one of the most divisive and damaging attitudes in the history of human civilization because it, not only condones, but compels the powerful to run roughshod over the less powerful without a thought to the damage they are doing. The ends justify the means? Not in my book.

Cheers Bob , my head hurts now. :;):

by **aCe'** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:56 pm

Bad Bob wrote:In the interests of constructive dialogue rather than sticking the boot in when it comes to the original discussion, I've read a passage this morning that sums up most of my concerns about how many of us in the developed world conceptualize people in the developing world:

"Human beings share with many other social animals the ability to discriminate between one's own and other groups, but to legitimize this distinction in terms of moral evaluation is probably uniquely human. The Other [academic-speak for peoples of other cultures/societies] has always been important in order not only to define ourselves as human beings...but also to put forward claims of a moral order.

The Other is frequently portrayed in negative ways in order both to build a positive self-identity and to legitimize one's own superiority and even conquest and domination of the less "civilized." From this comes the widespread idea of the savage or barbaric outsider or stranger. There has been a tendency to describe an "Ignoble" Other in terms of what they lack--depicting them as filthy and ignorant people hardly living better lives than beasts....Such a view has legitimized both physical extermination as well as military conquest and attempts to "civilize" the Other." -- Arne Kalland, "Environmentalism and Images of the Other," 2003

----

My main concern is that depicting peoples of the 3rd World as poor primitives leading pointless lives of desperation serves to justify anything we might wish to do to them. In the past, that involved coming in and taking their resources, herding them onto reserves to open space for settlers, turning them into slaves to do our grunt work for us and waging war on them if they had the temerity to resist. To my mind, establishing a program of 3rd World organ harvesting--whether forced or 'voluntary'--is just a continuation of the Social Darwinian thinking that was used to justify all of our (yes, we did it Canada too) colonial ventures in the past. "We matter more than you" has been one of the most divisive and damaging attitudes in the history of human civilization because it, not only condones, but compels the powerful to run roughshod over the less powerful without a thought to the damage they are doing. The ends justify the means? Not in my book.

well put...
:bowdown

by **Effes** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:09 pm

Yea, but we could use organs from say camel jockeys couldn't
we - they're put out to pasture at about 9 years old.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:53 pm

So basically what you are saying Bob is that the dead have rights and that is more important than the fact that these rights can and will lead to even more deaths. The Argentinians trapped in the Andes obviously didn't agree. (I am not arguing we should fkn eat them before anyone starts)

If you and your family were starving, and next door there was a field full of food rotting because the owner had died and there was no one to gather the food in, I take it that you would watch your family die rather than infringe on your dead neighbours rights and take some food?

There are millions of people dying in Africa every year, their bodies just thrown into mass graves, and you would rather respect the rights of the dead than use their organs to save countless lives around the world? Yet people find it quite acceptable to end life almost before its begun with experiments on embrio's and abortion.

A dead body is a dead body, if its got cholera or whichever contagious disease the body is burned, the dead persons wishes and rights arn't considered, because its a threat to life. Similarly if a dead body can be used to save lives IT SHOULD BE.

While I find your view admirable, I also find it distasteful that ANYONE would wish to see pain, suffering and death in thousands of people because of some outdated view of morality and the rights of the dead.

The West wont provide the starving Africans with the money to change things significantly now or in the forseable future, so its a vicious cycle of death. Better to use those bodies for something of value rather than rotting in some mass pit. While the money their families/towns/villages/government would receive could be used to improve things in a substantial way.

Death and nothing on the one hand....... life for thousands and a future for millions on the other. I know which I think is the most humane.

Yes its morbid to think of surgeons standing by waiting of people to die before they gather the harvest, but people are just standing by waiting of these people to die anyway.

Someone commits suicide and everyone says "what a waste of a life", some body rotting in a grave is also a waste if it could be used to save lives.

Once you are dead you are dead and all that is left is the chance of life for someone else, but you would rather honour the dead at the expense of the living.

Maybe we should turn the clock back and say all bodies are sacrosanct and shouldn't be touched. So no experiments, no post mortums, no organ transplants , no blood transfusions.

When we die our bodies are allowed to be dissected, our organs removed weighed analysed, but make sure you put all the bits back before we are buried because ? What fkn difference does it make , your fkn dead and unlikely to ever need those organs again.

Anyway you can see it whichever way you want, personally I am pro life not pro death. If you think its barbaric to treat the dead in such an unseemly manner, I see the forced deaths of thousands of people because of sentiment as barbaric.

by **Roger Red Hat** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 5:56 pm

if my printer toner runs out I send it off and someone refills it and it gets recycled.

why not recycle humans?

by **supersub** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:00 pm

there is no white toner refill and therefore can't be recycled ;end result extinction of the white toner

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:11 pm

And just as an addendum, I am not racist or fascist, and anyone who has read my posts over the last few years will know that. I have condemned racism on here a number of times. This is not about race or exploiting the 3rd world for the benefit of the West, this is about using readily available resources to benefit mankind. Just because I dislike the odd Spaniard doesn't mean I am rascist.

by **taff** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:13 pm

Shame your not a fascist you could make the trains run on time while hunting organs

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:18 pm

taff wrote:Shame your not a fascist you could make the trains run on time while hunting organs

What trains, they closed our station in the early seventies, maybe I should travel to Wales, I hear they have a ready source of trains I could hunt down.

by **Number 9** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:23 pm

Sabre wrote:
JBG wrote:
Sabre wrote:JBG for Spanish president. I'd kick myself Zapatero in the áss to put this man on charge of old España.

Yes, Id see myself as a cross between Franco and Phillip II.

My first edict would be to ban Spanish school children coming to Ireland to learn English, cloggging up our streets and making it impossible to get a quarter pounder in McDonalds in peace and to mandate the free transfers of Xavi, Lionel Messi and Diego Capel to Liverpool!

Nice call red37! but I have to comment this.

Being in Dundrum, Dublin, 2 summers in 1990 and 1991, I must say I feel... TOTAL SYMPATHY with your comment

I was ashamed back then of how noisy we Spaniards can be in a bus or in Mc Donalds.

WTF brought you to Dundrum?

Of all the places to visit in the Republic of Ireland(there are many great ones) you chooses to go there?
Not exactly much happens there,I was working there on and off a few times last year!

Why did you go there Sabre?

by **jonsnow** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:23 pm

I agree with S@int in all this.

by **SupitsJonF** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:26 pm

Everyone, relax.

by **taff** » Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:35 pm

s@int wrote:
taff wrote:Shame your not a fascist you could make the trains run on time while hunting organs

What trains, they closed our station in the early seventies, maybe I should travel to Wales, I hear they have a ready source of trains I could hunt down.

did they close down irony at the same time

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