Liverpool FC Forum

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:35 pm

Sabre wrote:Speaking of journos, I think they play an important role. Not certainly in the case of Bigmick, who had concerns on rotation before the first english journo paid attention to it, but yes in terms of making it a "hot topic".

Here, in Spain, we have pundits that talk about the premiership. I don't think anyone would deny that Michael Robinson knows his football, and knows a lot about Liverpool football Club. Marcelino has played in England, Ferrer has played in England... they know what they're talking about.

I had *never* heard mentioning rotation as one of the possible factors to explain why we're not challenging.

I admit that Michael Robinson, when commenting the likes of Gerrard, he'll say the odd, "Gerrard, he has good games and better ones, the odd average game, but if available he must play, the team is stronger with him". Which is a line that implies you always have to play your best, but when making deep analysis, they never deemed the Rafa Style as one of the main problems. If it was such an important factor I guess they'd mention it.

So if a topic isn't that much in what the papers say, quite simply the fans do not pay that much attention to that.

By the same token, I suspect most people who aren't Liverpool fans will take notice of what the likes of Lawrenson says on MOTD, or what some imbecile like Merson shouts about on Sky Sports, and be influenced by their views.

I wasn't aware you were in Spain Sabre, so obviously differences might be apparent - but I think there are agendas here that have been set out, and snowballed in some cases, and will be pursued until such a time as Benitez wins the Premiership.

Rotation, like "zonal marking" is the default topic whenever something doesn't go quite right for us with most of the press over here - and I don't think you can underestimate the influence that has on the general public.

by **maguskwt** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:45 am

bigmick wrote:.

So a fact. We clearly aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back. presumeably nobody would dispute that.

Ok mick these kind of absolute statements are what I have a problem with from you... We aren't winning IS a fact... we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back is not as much a fact as it is an opinion (IMO of course

)... the only games we played extremely well were agains the mancs and chelsea... the other games, we played well but we had our slice of luck. Most of the time it was a case of coming back from behind with one opponent being sent off. Or we played well and created so many chances but we still had to rely on a last gasp winner by gerrard or a penalty just to win a game we dominated or even get a draw. The last couple of games against Spurs and Atletico, we created just as many chances... but whether it was because our luck ran out or whatever, we couldn't finish them off. IMO we've been riding our luck. IMO we've been woeful in the finishing department with Torres injured and Robbie Keane not scoring.

Is it just one of those things (we'll snap out of it etc etc)?

hopefully we will find our finishing touch soon with torres returning and keane finding his shooting boots

is it the players getting tired after playing thirteen matches or whatever it is?

no way

is it that we've started playing against better teams?

against Spurs and Atletico? after beating the mancs and chelsea? No...

is it that the selection against Pompey just slightly wobbled us and since then we haven't managed to right the ship?

after dominating for 70 mins against Spurs and losing the game? the answer is no again. I didn't watch the atletico match but from what i've read it is a similar sort of problem we had against spurs. generating 20 odd attempts on goals and not finishing...

is there no reason whatsoever?

Torres injury, keane not scoring, substitutes like babel and benayoun not stepping up when called upon... we need another experienced and proven striker as backup... like owen...

On reflection though and with the benifit of hindisight, has the styling against Pompey turned out to be a good idea, a bad one or has it had absolutely no effect whatsoever on our subsequent performances?

didn't like the selection against Pompey for that game... but pretty sure there was no effect whatsoever on our subsequent performances and the reason is stated above...

Just my views of course... no hard and absolute facts... :;):

by **bigmick** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 3:23 am

So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

by **maguskwt** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:10 pm

bigmick wrote:So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

You didn't say we were playing worse than we did against Chelsea mick... you said and I quoted above that "We clearly aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back". Now, "a couple of weeks back" can mean the chelsea game... but it wasn't at all specified that way and it implies more the general way we played a couple of weeks back and the way we play now. But if you really meant the chelsea game alone then that's just what I agreed on in my post, that we only played exceptionally well against the mancs and chelsea. But why would anyone compare a single exceptional game to gauge our recent performances? So if you read my post abit more carefully, what I said was that the way we performed against Spurs and AM was not that much different from the games we played against other teams BESIDES the mancs and chelsea. In those games we rode our luck we collected 3 points in most of them. Against Spurs we dominated for 70 mins! we still ended up as losers. So "we aren't playing as well as a couple of weeks back" is not a fact... "we aren't playing as well as against Chelsea and the Mancs" IS a fact... and of course one can point to ANY team and refer to one of their best games and safely say that "they haven't been playing as well as that game"... I just don't see a valid reason to making that point...

and you can keep your little indirect jibes regarding idiots and your honest opinions... just not necessary... :;):

by **Number 9** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 1:36 pm

You are right Maguskwt,i agree!
We have played a lot worse this season than we did against Spurs and Atleti and came away with 3 points!
I dont believe we are playing particularly worse than a few weeks back(Chelsea game aside).The Atleti game for example some of the football we played at times was fantastic and as good as anything we have produced this season,but the final 3rd let us down!
The difference is to me we have not taken our chances lately or some would argue we "have'nt had any luck"!
What I do know is its high time we kicked into gear properly,starting today with a convincing home win against WBA!
Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:27 pm

Number 9 wrote:Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

Or before we lose all belief in him Barry.

The truth is scoring 2 or 3 or even 4 against W.B.A. proves nothing, but would be a big boost to both the confidence of Keane and to the team that THEY CAN SCORE GOALS. We need to see chances created and scored on a regular basis before we can start to relax a little.

We have so far shown that without Torres we are pretty toothless up front, which unless we buy at Christmas means at the very least Torres can't be rotated at all, and careful planning will be needed when Torres needs a rest, EVEN IF Keane starts scoring.

by **Number 9** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 6:12 pm

s@int wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

Or before we lose all belief in him Barry.

The truth is scoring 2 or 3 or even 4 against W.B.A. proves nothing, but would be a big boost to both the confidence of Keane and to the team that THEY CAN SCORE GOALS. We need to see chances created and scored on a regular basis before we can start to relax a little.

We have so far shown that without Torres we are pretty toothless up front, which unless we buy at Christmas means at the very least Torres can't be rotated at all, and careful planning will be needed when Torres needs a rest, EVEN IF Keane starts scoring.

Yeah mate I would love to see him get a couple today!
His lack of confidence is the biggest factor in his drought I reckon...Lets hope todays the day he kickstarts his LFC career!
Been saying that for weeks now though!

by **bigmick** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 7:30 pm

maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

You didn't say we were playing worse than we did against Chelsea mick... you said and I quoted above that "We clearly aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back". Now, "a couple of weeks back" can mean the chelsea game... but it wasn't at all specified that way and it implies more the general way we played a couple of weeks back and the way we play now. But if you really meant the chelsea game alone then that's just what I agreed on in my post, that we only played exceptionally well against the mancs and chelsea. But why would anyone compare a single exceptional game to gauge our recent performances? So if you read my post abit more carefully, what I said was that the way we performed against Spurs and AM was not that much different from the games we played against other teams BESIDES the mancs and chelsea. In those games we rode our luck we collected 3 points in most of them. Against Spurs we dominated for 70 mins! we still ended up as losers. So "we aren't playing as well as a couple of weeks back" is not a fact... "we aren't playing as well as against Chelsea and the Mancs" IS a fact... and of course one can point to ANY team and refer to one of their best games and safely say that "they haven't been playing as well as that game"... I just don't see a valid reason to making that point...

and you can keep your little indirect jibes regarding idiots and your honest opinions... just not necessary...

The thing that is totally unnecessary, is picking a silly argument over a fairly innocuous statement. "we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back" is as near to a fact as your going to get. You disputed this despite freely admitting that you hadn't seen our most recent performance, merely read the comments on here. If you had actually seen the performance against Athletico, my suspicion is you wouldn't be disputing the statement, but the fact that you are willing to enter into an argument with somebody who actually did, says it all.

In future I shall let all your comments and observations pass without entering into any debate. I have neither the time nor the inclination to debate with people who are offering opinions on performances which they haven't even seen. Go ahead and have the final word, I'm going to catch the rest of the match. I have wasted too much time on this already.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:32 pm

Number 9 wrote:Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

nice one Barry

by **Number 9** » Sat Nov 08, 2008 8:34 pm

s@int wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

nice one Barry

Delighted for him mate!

by **Igor Zidane** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 1:28 am

Wholesale changes for the spurs game i should imagine , and do we care?

by **maguskwt** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:06 am

bigmick wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
bigmick wrote:So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

You didn't say we were playing worse than we did against Chelsea mick... you said and I quoted above that "We clearly aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back". Now, "a couple of weeks back" can mean the chelsea game... but it wasn't at all specified that way and it implies more the general way we played a couple of weeks back and the way we play now. But if you really meant the chelsea game alone then that's just what I agreed on in my post, that we only played exceptionally well against the mancs and chelsea. But why would anyone compare a single exceptional game to gauge our recent performances? So if you read my post abit more carefully, what I said was that the way we performed against Spurs and AM was not that much different from the games we played against other teams BESIDES the mancs and chelsea. In those games we rode our luck we collected 3 points in most of them. Against Spurs we dominated for 70 mins! we still ended up as losers. So "we aren't playing as well as a couple of weeks back" is not a fact... "we aren't playing as well as against Chelsea and the Mancs" IS a fact... and of course one can point to ANY team and refer to one of their best games and safely say that "they haven't been playing as well as that game"... I just don't see a valid reason to making that point...

and you can keep your little indirect jibes regarding idiots and your honest opinions... just not necessary...

The thing that is totally unnecessary, is picking a silly argument over a fairly innocuous statement. "we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks back" is as near to a fact as your going to get. You disputed this despite freely admitting that you hadn't seen our most recent performance, merely read the comments on here. If you had actually seen the performance against Athletico, my suspicion is you wouldn't be disputing the statement, but the fact that you are willing to enter into an argument with somebody who actually did, says it all.

In future I shall let all your comments and observations pass without entering into any debate. I have neither the time nor the inclination to debate with people who are offering opinions on performances which they haven't even seen. Go ahead and have the final word, I'm going to catch the rest of the match. I have wasted too much time on this already.

well mick isn't your post a generator for a discussion? and I offered just that - my view in response to your post FOR DISCUSSION... I never intended it as picking an argument over an "innocuous statement". I merely added an objection in my post because your post in my view meant as if all of a sudden we were playing badly which is not the case. It was a counter point. Yes I admit I missed the AM game but all the respected posters on here (not the knee-jerkers) as well as newspapers and websites said we had plenty of chances. Maybe we played badly and still had plenty of chances. Maybe we played so well and couldn't finish off the game. But that was besides the point because my point was not that we've been playing well and we CONTINUE to play well. My point was that besides the man u and the chelsea games, where we played exceptionally well, we've been playing more or less in a similar fashion creating plenty of chances but then failing to put away most of them, yet we got maximum points in our earlier games and we got found out against spurs and AM which is a VALID POINT even you must admit that. We didn't necessarily dip in form or improve our form. Number 9 who I respect as a very balanced poster already agreed to my view. For the record I am not blindly picking an argument with you here. I'm providing a valid counter point for one of your points. If this is not a discussion I don't know what is. And it is your prerogative not to answer my post if you wish so... I don't care and I'm not waiting in front of the computer for you to be replying my posts. But if anyone puts out a post which interests me I WILL respond to it with my view and my own counterpoints.

Regards

by **maguskwt** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 2:21 am

Number 9 wrote:
s@int wrote:
Number 9 wrote:Time Robbie Keane banged a couple in before he looses all belief in himself!

nice one Barry

Delighted for him mate!

yup a nice prediction and 2 classy finishes. I said in the keane forum that he has talent, above that of Kuyt, and his finishes today proved that. I'm one of the Kuyt supporters on here but I must say that if Kuyt was given the same chances that Keane had today, he MIGHT not have scored them.

by **Number 9** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:34 am

bigmick wrote:So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

He's right Mick and you are wrong..no need for a big long post that confuses 90% of the board!
We aint been playing any worse than the games we won earlier in the season,in fact i would say we have been better mostly in terms of pure football.BUT the ball was just not going in against Spurs or A Madrid.
To say we are or were(before today) playing badly or worse due to anything whether it be rotation,styling,dirky boy or anything else is just bullsh'it!
Sometimes i feel you are too obsessed with your own predictions and ideas to give a balanced view on the facts!I have loved reading your posts for a few years now but TBH the last few in this thread have been absolute bull mate!

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 09, 2008 4:57 am

Number 9 wrote:
bigmick wrote:So you are disputing the "fact" that we aren't playing as well as we were a couple of weeks ago? Did you see the performance against Chelsea by any chance? I can't help thinking that you are just trying to pick an argument here Magus. If it makes you happier though, I am more than willing to concede that the view that we played better against Chelsea than we have in the three subsequent games, is my opinion and not a fact. I would also venture however that anybody who doesn't agree with that (and I'm not asking for a reason here, simply an honest appraisal of the three performances) is as far as the game of association football is concerned, an idiot (IMHO of course).

He's right Mick and you are wrong..no need for a big long post that confuses 90% of the board!
We aint been playing any worse than the games we won earlier in the season,in fact i would say we have been better mostly in terms of pure football.BUT the ball was just not going in against Spurs or A Madrid.
To say we are or were(before today) playing badly or worse due to anything whether it be rotation,styling,dirky boy or anything else is just bullsh'it!
Sometimes i feel you are too obsessed with your own predictions and ideas to give a balanced view on the facts!I have loved reading your posts for a few years now but TBH the last few in this thread have been absolute bull mate!

Barry.

So lets get this straight. We aren't actually debating any causes for our performances over the games I questioned in my post two pages back. We are actually saying that in all seriousness there was no dip in our form whatsoever. We're not even making the assumption that it's nothing to do with styling or rotation (which is a perfectly reasonable point of view to have, most everyone on the forum would agree I should think), we are actually saying that there was no deterioration in performance. None, nil.

Our performances against Athletico Madrid, Spurs, and Portsmouth were broadly in line with all our other performances all season, with the exception of Man Utd and Chelsea? Although I totally disagree with that Barry, at least you did see the game against Athletico Madrid and didn't make the assumption based on what you'd read on here that it was "very similar to the Spurs performance". The reality is of course the two performances were completely and utterly different, like chalk and cheese (not a fact, just my opinion having seen both games).

Now if we are going to debate the effects of rotation, claim there is no effect infact, then fair enough. I didn't even claim myself that the reason our form had dipped was totally down to rotation.

Consider though that this particular point which this poster is disputing, is nothing to do with that. His point is, we weren't playing any worse than two weeks previously. Given that two weeks previously we went to Chelsea and played them off the park, and given THE FACT that he freely admits to not having seen the most recent performance, I can't take his point of view seriously.

Anyways enough. If you think we played equally as well against Pompey, Spurs and Athletico Madrid as we had previous to those games, then we'll just have to agree to differ.

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