Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:04 pm

It's funny how we all remember the Valencia team being so great (I do as well I must admit) but the lads who know their Spanish football are always urging caution when discussing them. It's probably worth considering that the Liverpool team(s) which they played off the park were fairly average in comparison to the one today.

Probably more than Valencia, I think we are starting to resemble a Mourinho team. The Porto side which won the Champions league had that stickability, as well a sprinkling of really good players. Ultimately it's all about finding a way to win football matches, even when things conspire against you you find a way to win. Right now we have the knack, and it's a good thing to see. The next big tester for us is going to be when we lose one, how do we bounce back and will a blip become a bliiiiiip. My hunch is we aren't going to win it by twelve points or anything, so sooner or later we are going to be involved in a dogfight. The variable then is going to be can we stay in the fight, or will we strive but ultimately fall short.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:08 pm

At the end of the day, Rafa builds a team, but not necessarily by starting "from the back". Yes, the first focus is to get the defence/team organised. But that is different to building a team "line by line", starting with the defenders. The danger if you start with the defenders is that you will have everyone playing to the defenders' strengths. Basically you will end up where most of the lesser sides end up - they put 8 men behind the ball and rely on two strikers to come up with some attacking moves on their own.

We're not like that. I enjoy watching us win the ball high up the pitch. We get our opponents "trapped", they give the ball away and we start a counter-attack. That is because the team operates well together, as a unit. Very much like Valencia used to do under Rafa.

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:16 pm

Another interesting angle St Mick which will no doubt get some debate is whether once Torres comes back, we should stick with the same team except swap Torres for Keane. Last season against the better teams the system ended up looking a bit toothless, but given the resurgence of Alonso I just wonder whether having effectively two sitters with Gerrard advanced further forward will once more feature in Rafa's plans. Personally I would revert back to the 4-4-2, but it's by no means clear cut and will become even more closely debated if keane continues not to score in the league.

Strikers which don't score goals ain't worth a light. Heskey wasn't and Kuyt wasn't. All the running around in the World doesn't compensate for not putting the ball in the onion bag.

Totally different for Kuyt now, he plays wide right and therefore the odd bonus goal here and there is fine. Keane though must score if we are to prosper and he's going to occupy one of the striker slots, simple as that really.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 12:45 pm

bigmick wrote:Another interesting angle St Mick which will no doubt get some debate is whether once Torres comes back, we should stick with the same team except swap Torres for Keane. Last season against the better teams the system ended up looking a bit toothless, but given the resurgence of Alonso I just wonder whether having effectively two sitters with Gerrard advanced further forward will once more feature in Rafa's plans. Personally I would revert back to the 4-4-2, but it's by no means clear cut and will become even more closely debated if keane continues not to score in the league.

Strikers which don't score goals ain't worth a light. Heskey wasn't and Kuyt wasn't. All the running around in the World doesn't compensate for not putting the ball in the onion bag.

Totally different for Kuyt now, he plays wide right and therefore the odd bonus goal here and there is fine. Keane though must score if we are to prosper and he's going to occupy one of the striker slots, simple as that really.

Benitez´s sides have ALWAYS been focused on a kick-a$$, hard midfield and a stingy defense. Notice the lack of top strikers in both teams up until the arrival of Torres at Liverpool. In his philosophy you're better off spending butching up your midfield than splurging on strikers.

If I remember rightly Rafa's first 2 seasons at Valencia were characterised by low goal tallies at both ends of the field, then in his third Mista banged in 20+ goals I think and they raced to the title with nearly 80 goals. We were pretty much the same. Where as we always defended well but struggled to score enough goals that has almost changed full circle in the last year or so. Last season we scored more goals than any other side in all competitions.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:07 pm

bigmick wrote:It's funny how we all remember the Valencia team being so great (I do as well I must admit) but the lads who know their Spanish football are always urging caution when discussing them. It's probably worth considering that the Liverpool team(s) which they played off the park were fairly average in comparison to the one today.

Probably more than Valencia, I think we are starting to resemble a Mourinho team. The Porto side which won the Champions league had that stickability, as well a sprinkling of really good players. Ultimately it's all about finding a way to win football matches, even when things conspire against you you find a way to win. Right now we have the knack, and it's a good thing to see. The next big tester for us is going to be when we lose one, how do we bounce back and will a blip become a bliiiiiip. My hunch is we aren't going to win it by twelve points or anything, so sooner or later we are going to be involved in a dogfight. The variable then is going to be can we stay in the fight, or will we strive but ultimately fall short.

I agree we probably won't win the league comfortably (if we manage to win it!) but I think if we are there or there abouts come March,I have no fears of us bottling it. Once every game becomes a must win cup tie, I have every confidence in the team pulling out all the stops and winning. Its the games when we dont know whether to gamble or stick that we have seemed to have problems with in the past.

I have no problem with games against the top sides when we score and try to hold what we have, but against some of the lesser sides last season I thought we were too cautious once we had got the first goal. Didn't know whether to hold what we had or go for the all important second goal and got caught between two stools.

This season I think we have added a much more positive outlook to our game both on the pitch but especially from Rafa. His subs have been aggressive and I think we are reaping the rewards for a much more attacking mindset. Last season we were all upset or at the very least baffled by some of his subs. This season they have been positive and have certainly sent a message out to the team to go for the WIN.

As for Valencia, I only really remember the 2-0 defeat away from home, and to be honest apart from the crazy notion of playing Diao at CB we more than matched them. Second half we were at least as good as them if not better, at least until we went down to 10 men.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:19 pm

Funnily enough, Riera has said today in Marca that this Liverpool reminds him of Valencia, in the sense that, playing against them, it's difficult to make harm.

Well, I agree that's a common factor between the two teams.

But was stronger that Valencia? No (1). Was different? Yes. We never had a "creative second striker" a la Piojo López or Aimar for instance in this team, Gerrard has very own personal style, more complete as a footballer than the Argie, and the soul of the team is different, so is our football.

What I'm heading to is that if we keep our progress, and we keep improving, we won't be I think a Barcelona-esque team of multiple passing, but more, as a fellow mate says above, a Mourinho-esque team, with few errors, and lots of victories. I don't like to say that Rafa's style is Mourinho's, because I think Rafa has his very own book and this book is richer than the Portuguese, I'm talking about a similarity between the solidness of Mourinho's Chelsea and us. (Rafa had a lot of work to do to catch up Chelsea's power)

(1)

http://elmundodeporte.elmundo.es/elmundo....es.html

It was similar to us. Some players like Angulo (a simply decent and worker RM) are no better than Kuyt. Their up-front line didn't have a Torres at his best, but had Carew, Adrian Ilie, Juan Sanchez and Salva Ballesta. They were all good and Valencia had depth there to rotate.

Baraja and Albelda were a worse pairing than Mascherano and Alonso, but not by a mile. In defence they had Pellegrino, who was strong in Spain believe it or not, and Ayala, Marchena didn't play that much back then. Angloma and Carboni were great defenders too, and Aimar and Kily Gonzalez had loads of quality, especially the former. It was a good squad to be honest, but not better than ours. Ours is better all round.

After watching closely that squad (memory sometimes fails), I think we are stronger than them now as a squad, but not in 2005.

The similarities lie, in stressing the importance of collective defence, and stressing the importance of counter attack, but our football was and will be different as the soul of the team is different.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:40 pm

Sabre wrote:The similarities lie, in stressing the importance of collective defence, and stressing the importance of counter attack, but our football was and will be different as the soul of the team is different.

I agree, although to call Valencia a counter-attacking team would be incorrect imo. From what I saw of them they controlled games and passed teams off the park, while holding a high defensive line, but if a team did mount an attack and it broke down, they had pace in the wide areas to hurt teams. Obviously we've always genuinely lacked pace in the side, both out wide and up front until recent times with the acquisitions of Torres and Babel. In the past, Cisse and Gerrard were the only players in the team with any real pace and even then, Cisse didn't know how to utilise this pace and ran offside every two minutes.

Being able to launch counter attacks when appropriate, and being a strictly counter-attacking team are completely different. For example under Houllier we were predominantly a counter attacking side, defending deep and with an exceptionally quick striker making us deadly on the counter (but also making us quite one-dimensional). Benitez's Valencia were a good footballing side playing possession football, but also knew how to break quickly.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:45 pm

I think that correction you make is relevant, st michael. You're right, they weren't strictly counter attacking, they wouldn't sit back and wait the likes of Numancia and Osasuna.

But against medium-top teams of the liga away (Atleticos, Sevillas, Deportivos) and against top teams, I would say that their main option was the counter-attack. That is, they were keen and felt comfortable on counter attacking, but they were able to control games when required aswell.

by **johnymarcu** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 3:11 pm

There is a interview to Riera when he speaks about this matter

It is in spanish sorry... if anyone needs a transalation say to me! :;):

http://www.marca.com/edicion....75.html

by **stmichael** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:07 pm

Sabre wrote:I think that correction you make is relevant, st michael. You're right, they weren't strictly counter attacking, they wouldn't sit back and wait the likes of Numancia and Osasuna.

But against medium-top teams of the liga away (Atleticos, Sevillas, Deportivos) and against top teams, I would say that their main option was the counter-attack. That is, they were keen and felt comfortable on counter attacking, but they were able to control games when required aswell.

With the introduction of wingers and more attacking fullbacks this summer, many sense that we're now going for the jugular. Having said that, none of these new lads look likely to shirk their defensive responsibilty..

The Premiership's a different kettle of fish to La Liga, which "could" make it harder to impliment those attacking tactical adjustments, though United and Arsenal don't seem to have any problems blowing teams away with attacking panache when they reaslly want to.

So which is the way under Rafa?? Will we ever see the brilliance we saw from Valencia at Anfield?? Or will we continue to be just that "bit" more easy on the eye than Houllier's Liverpool? I'm pleased to say that I think we're moving towards the former.

by **Fowler_E7** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:13 pm

that valencia team, had Carboni, Curru Torres, Kily Gonzalez, Rufete and Vicente playing fullback and the wing. I dont think we have that depth of quality out wide in our side, though we are stronger in the other positions

by **Avi Cohen** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:29 pm

It scares me when people talk about the Valencia model. Okay, the outplayed us with some fantastic football a few years ago but on the whole they weren't the most exciting to watch.

I love Rafa but hate his 'don't concede' mentality. It's not attractive to watch. Just looking at the stats of his Valencia reign, the top scorers record won't quake the boots of any Scum or Chelski defender...

2000/2001 Juan Sanchez 12
2001/2002 Ruben Baraja 7
2002/2003 John Carew / Aimar / Fabio Aurelio 8.

by **stmichael** » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:02 pm

Avi Cohen wrote:Just looking at the stats of his Valencia reign, the top scorers record won't quake the boots of any Scum or Chelski defender...

2000/2001 Juan Sanchez 12
2001/2002 Ruben Baraja 7
2002/2003 John Carew / Aimar / Fabio Aurelio 8

get him upfront instead of keane

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:30 pm

I read a nice little article concerning Fabio Aurelio in the Independent . Good insight into the lad an seems a really decent an honest lad to me. Bit of a worry though that hes another one with only 12 months of his contract left

Didnt know where to post it but seeing as he goes on a bit about Valencia an Rafa ive put it in here , Sorry if its already been put somewhere else.

Fabio Aurelio: action replay

Tuesday November 25 2008

Liverpool's Brazilian full-back played under his manager, Rafael Benitez, when Valencia ended a 31-year wait for La Liga glory. He tells Ian Herbert how Anfield can learn from that experience in their 19th season of agony

He's the player who doesn't get mobbed when he's strolling with his family along Otterspool Promenade on the banks of the Mersey – his son's well-established Scouse accent giving the lie to any impression that dad might be a Brazilian international and Liverpool full-back. Fabio Aurelio's presence hardly screams "superstar" either, as he arrives on a bitter autumnal day at a school in the south of the city. No Rolex the size of a brick, no Latin American personality, just jeans as modest as the shoes and, as he moves around a sports hall filled with children whose troubles put football into its proper context, a slight sense that he is pleased to have received the invitation.

Appearances can be deceptive, of course. Though the Kop end has not been known to yearn for a "team of Fabios" – the song it reserves for one James Carragher, who lines up alongside him – Aurelio is the man perhaps best placed to answer the Premier League's most burning question: does Rafael Benitez truly have what it takes to deliver the title to Liverpool in May, 19 years after they last won one?

Aurelio is not among the knot of Spanish speakers like Pepe Reina, Xabi Alonso and Javier Mascherano, whom you will find in fast, animated conversation with Benitez at airports during Liverpool's Champions League journeys, but he has watched him at close quarters for longer than any player. It is seven years since Benitez made Aurelio one of his first signings at Valencia and so convinced was the Liverpool manager by what he had to offer that within two years of arriving at Anfield he had shipped him over here, too. It means that Aurelio has seen the changes in Benitez since he arrived at the Mestalla, fresh from having taken modest Tenerife into Liga 1. It also furnishes him with first-hand experience of the Liverpool manager's two titles at Valencia. Can he do it again?

Aurelio's answer is yes, of course. But in the 29-year-old's recollections of how Benitez secured Valencia's legendary 2000-01 La Liga title, a pinnacle the club had waited 31 years for, he has grounds for observing that Liverpool would be served well by other teams setting the pace. "We were running from the back in 2001 and that was good for us," Aurelio recalls. "Nobody is expecting you to fight for the title so you don't have the pressure that the teams at the top of the table have – to win every game. If you're top, you have to win, or otherwise you come down one position, or two positions. That was good for us at Valencia and maybe there are lessons for us now, at Liverpool."

Benitez was a different individual – less calm, more authoritative – back then. "He needed to show authority and was more authoritative as he was coming from a lowly team to a top team that hadn't won the league for so long. I clearly see him here as calmer."

Benitez was more determined to intrude in aspects of the Valencia players' lives where he was not always wanted – his insistence that they eat their rice plain, rather than seasoned with vegetables was a source of controversy in the rice-producing environs of Valencia. But for all that intensity, unwelcome at times, Aurelio presents the events of a freezing night in the shadow of Barcelona's Montjuic mountain, in December 2001, as evidence that Benitez will also show grace under pressure if and when the pips start to squeak for Liverpool, this spring.

"We were playing the local side, Espanyol," he recalls, "and there were question marks because the team wasn't very good and we found ourselves losing 2-0." He is actually understating it. Benitez faced the sack if the side he had just taken over lost, having battled through a snowstorm to reach the stadium late. Aurelio insists Benitez said nothing particularly memorable at half-time – "there was no shouting, nothing special I remember apart from, 'You can go out and do it" – but the events of the 45 minutes which followed changed everything. "We won 3-2 and everybody remembers that, because after that we went up and away and won the league," Aurelio says. "The pressure on him [Benitez] was amazing and if you've overcome that maybe you can overcome anything."

Just as Benitez – the man who bluntly told Aurelio when he arrived from Sao Paulo's Morumbi stadium that he must put aside his Brazilian wing-back instincts and learn to defend better – has faced undoubted tribulations on Merseyside, Aurelio has struggled too, his development stunted by two hateful injuries. Such was the force of the Achilles tendon snap he suffered in a Champions League game against PSV Eindhoven in April last year that video replays show him looking behind him to discover the source of what he believed had hit him. It was the end of his season and, having re-established himself as Liverpool's first-choice left-back, he also found the last campaign ended prematurely by a torn abductor muscle in that fateful Champions League semi-final first leg with Chelsea at Anfield. "They've been some of my hardest times in the game," says Aurelio, whose 2003-4 campaign with Valencia was also cut short – by a broken leg.

He has borne these troubles with the kind of forbearance and good nature which make him one of Liverpool's most receptive players when it comes to events like the recent launch of the club's "Respect 4 All" disability coaching centre in south Liverpool. The centre, for children aged 12 to 16 of all nationalities and ethnicities with learning and physical disabilities and visual impairments, has recently received €140,000 of funding from the Premier League and Professional Footballers' Association Community Fund, and was being supported through the Premier League's "Creating Chances" programme.

Aurelio weaves around the hall, joining in with wheelchair football, football for the visually impaired, who use a ball which emits a noise, and takes up a place in a goal as a queue of children with learning difficulties prepare to test him out. "It can be difficult just when your children have a small cold," says Aurelio, reflecting on it all. "To see the problems these children have come through is a tribute to those who have worked with them."

The importance of Aurelio's family, who are settled in Woolton, to the south of the city, is all the greater because of the personal tragedy he encountered as he was preparing to leave Brazil to make his way in Europe. His father, Mario, died in a car crash in March 2000, which meant he never lived to see his son – then aged 20 – play in the Olympics for Emerson Leao's Brazil side that year, nor enjoy his success at the Mestalla.

"It had always been a dream for my father to see me playing for a European club. There have been many times things I have wished he could have seen," he reflects.

At least Aurelio's development, making his debut for Sao Paulo in 1997, aged 17, helped him buy Mario, a plastics worker, a better home before he died. The absence of cash certainly made for long bus trips home from the Morumbi. "I had a godfather, Jose du Prado, who was the one who helped me and my family a lot and my parents did all that they could," he says.

Visits to Brazil are limited to the close season, though Aurelio's mother, Neide, is in Europe more often, either to see him, or his sister, who is married to Real Betis' Brazilian midfielder Edu. Aurelio and his wife, Elaine, married three months before his father died and, though adapting to a European life took them time, he finds his Spanish-born children – Fabio, seven next month, and two-year-old Victoria – take everything in their stride. "They amaze me," he says.

With one year left on his contract, Aurelio hopes he can continue a career on Merseyside which has not always demonstrated the attacking wing play and eye for the spectacular goal – a spectacular volley brought his only goal for Liverpool at Bolton last March –which Benitez has always seen in him.

For now, the key is to remember the lessons of 2001, he believes. "The fans here are amazing but it is a long way if you are fighting for the title. We know the pressure we have because of the time Liverpool has waited, but we have to keep our feet on the floor as we are doing now – and wait."

by **Ciggy** » Tue Nov 25, 2008 9:40 pm

Good article that Nan, Fabio sounds really down to earth.

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