Liverpool FC Forum

[stmichael]

Since Rafa came to this club, a lot of talk has centred around Rafa's vision of turning our side into a model of the side which he created at Valencia. Well looking at where we stand now, I reckon we're already seeing some similarities between Rafa's LFC and his former Valencia. Ok we aren't seeing a direct copy, because it's not possible. We may copy the way we act as a team in defence and certain ideas in attack, but how we play has to be based on this team's strengths. For instance, we don't have a Pablo Aimar, but we do have the passing range and quality of Alonso. Other similarities include the use of a big man upfront with the intention of getting the best out of the midfield players.

It's daft to suggest that the way we use Sissoko-Alonso is a problem, because I think it's about how the whole team acts. We probably want the two of them to collect balls so we can start counter-attacks from the center. For that to happen, we need the wide midfielders and our strikers to do a fine defensive job so we can win the ball where we want to win it. Infact I was having a discussion with my mate the other day on just how the central midfield will pan out next season and what formation we will play. I think if you look at it, with the right additions, we'll have the personnel to play a variety of formations which can only be a good thing.

Last season, we saw Benitez resort to the 4-2-3-1 he was so fond of at Valencia, the best combination being David Abelda and Ruben Baraja occupying the "2" in the middle of midfield. One of the key features of this team saw these 2 hunt as a pack in midfield, and was impressive to watch both for Valencia and sometimes Spain. To the best of my comprehension, the main men in midfield in this system for Liverpool, Alonso and Sissoko, do not really work in this way. However one thing you can say in defence of this is that Albelda and Baraja, if they were compared to any Liverpool players, would probably be compared to Hamman and Gerrard respectively, and perhaps Benitez has something different in mind for Liverpool.

Certainly at the start of the season, it seemed as though Rafa was trying to play with 1 striker, and 5 in midfield. But we just didn't have the attacking midfielders to make it work - the striker was isolated, with few midfielders getting forward to support - something that the 4-5-1 (or 4-2-3-1, whatever you want to call it) requires if it is to be anything more than a defensive formation.

Since Rafa has started playing 2 strikers, we've posed far more of a threat, with the ball sticking up top long enough for the midfield to catch up, and with more width.

Maybe playing a 4-4-2 explains why Momo and Xabi don't "hunt as a pack" - because they need to hold their positions much more, being the only midfielders in the centre of the pitch.

Whether Rafa will decide, following summer signings, to revert to a 4-2-3-1 or not is an interesting question. Clearly he is looking to sign more + better attacking midfielders at the moment.

My question is, if Rafa's Valencia is among the blueprints for his vision, is this "hunting in a pack" way of working in the midfield a thing that Alonso and Momo need to work on if we are to become more successful?

In addition, are there any other useful features that need to be assessed from Valencia or other teams of the past that we know Benitez has in mind for Liverpool when improving the team is an issue?

[tubby]

I think Valencia being a Spanish outfit had more than us. It woul dbe nice if we had Aimar becasue he could really add a lot to the way we play and create chances from nothing.

[Sabre]

In addition, are there any other useful features that need to be assessed from Valencia or other teams of the past that we know Benitez has in mind for Liverpool when improving the team is an issue?

I have some time today so I'm making a good research of Benitez's past, specially Tenerife, Extremadura and Osasuna where he coached. I'll post later about that, but it seems he liked to use the 4-2-3-1, in every team he has been. I've found an interesting quote from Rafa when he was in Valencia "Sissoko s going to be the best player of Valencia in a couple of years".

I'll write more later giving my opinion.

[jonnymac1979]

Sabre, did you read that book on Benitez by Paco Lloret?  I read it in one sitting.  Not the best book in the world but you might want to have a look.

[Sabre]

No I haven't, I'll give it a shot!

[EddieC]

Great post, been a while since I've seen anyhting on here I feel like replying to.

I think the fact Rafa's going for Aurelio & Alves suggests he might be looking to play a 3-5-2 or 3-4-3 more often next season. One things for certain, if he can add these 2 players we'll have a lot more options next season.

Given the times he's tried & failed with 4-2-3-1, I'm not sure if Rafa is convinced this is the system for EPL. For this to work you need all 3 attacking midfielders to at least get into double figures, and only Stevie looks capable of that at the moment. It could work if we can sign a prolific goalscorer, someone who can create his own chances instead of relying on service. I don't think Crouch is the man for this job. He plays well with a partner, but by himself too often the midfield isn't close enough to pick up his flick ons.

In an ideal world Rafa would love to play 4-2-3-1, as it's the system he's used wherever he's been, but I think next season we can expect to only see it used in Europe, where it seems to have worked quite well. Back at home I expect to see 4-4-2 with some genuine width, or the 3-5-2 I mentioned if we get the right players.

[red37]

id go with that

[stmichael]

Given the times he's tried & failed with 4-2-3-1, I'm not sure if Rafa is convinced this is the system for EPL. For this to work you need all 3 attacking midfielders to at least get into double figures, and only Stevie looks capable of that at the moment. It could work if we can sign a prolific goalscorer, someone who can create his own chances instead of relying on service. I don't think Crouch is the man for this job. He plays well with a partner, but by himself too often the midfield isn't close enough to pick up his flick ons.

In an ideal world Rafa would love to play 4-2-3-1, as it's the system he's used wherever he's been, but I think next season we can expect to only see it used in Europe, where it seems to have worked quite well. Back at home I expect to see 4-4-2 with some genuine width, or the 3-5-2 I mentioned if we get the right players.

Benitez´s sides have ALWAYS been focused on a kick-a$$, hard midfield and a stingy defense. Notice the lack of top strikers in both teams. Sure they are nice, but in his philosophy you´re better off spending butching up your midfield than splurging on strikers.

Already we can see enormous comparisons between the 2 sides...Valencia were more clinical than us, we are incredibly profligate in comparison...but the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 2 sides are in similar areas of the elevens...

Rafa's first 2 seasons at Valencia were characterised by low goal tallies at both ends of the field..in his third Mista banged in 20+ goals I think and they raced to the title with nearly 80 goals...

Lets hope we can sign a 20+man in the summer or Robbie gets back to his best cos there's no way on God's Earth any of the others are gonna crack off a shedload of goals next season and I'd be surprised if Gerrard ever has such a prolific season as the last one in the rest of his Liverpool career.

[metalhead]

I think in some aspects, we are becoming similar to Valencia. For example, techniques. Rafa is buying alot of technical players like zenden,garcia,alonso etc... and we are linked with more latin players who are known with technical abilities. He is creating, like what he did in Valencia a more type of quick passes, high tempo and counter attacks. He wants to copy this aspect in Liverpool. He is bringing Aurelio, who is known as a more attacking full back to be used in a counter attack role and could feed beautiful crosses to the "big" man.

I agree that Rafa was trying to play 1 attacked 5 midfield at the first of the season, and it didnt work because the lack of attacking midfielders we had in the squad. But look at Zenden, in one of the games, i forgot against who, he was used as an attacking midfielder and he did well delivering fast balls to the striker (crouch). That is why i think Zenden is an option, even if we have gonzalez and kewell playing on the left, zenden can be an option as an attacking midfielder.

I always prefer  4-4-2 formation, because it would make it easier for the team to play with higher tempo and direct passes. It will also help the attack even more with the link up play between the 2 strikers.

[stmichael]

Rafa builds a team, but not necessarily by starting "from the back". Yes, the first focus is to get the defence/team organised. But that is different to building a team "line by line", starting with the defenders. The danger if you start with the defenders is that you will have everyone playing to the defenders' strengths. Basically you will end up where most of the lesser sides end up - they put 8 men behind the ball and rely on two strikers to come up with some attacking moves on their own.

We're not like that. I enjoy watching us win the ball high up the pitch. We get our opponents "trapped", they give the ball away and we start a counter-attack. That is because the team operates well together, as a unit. Very much like Valencia used to do under Rafa.

We're getting there, inch by inch.

[metalhead]

Rafa builds a team, but not necessarily by starting "from the back". Yes, the first focus is to get the defence/team organised. But that is different to building a team "line by line", starting with the defenders. The danger if you start with the defenders is that you will have everyone playing to the defenders' strengths. Basically you will end up where most of the lesser sides end up - they put 8 men behind the ball and rely on two strikers to come up with some attacking moves on their own.

We're not like that. I enjoy watching us win the ball high up the pitch. We get our opponents "trapped", they give the ball away and we start a counter-attack. That is because the team operates well together, as a unit. Very much like Valencia used to do under Rafa.

We're getting there, inch by inch.

hmm..i see your point

that is why crouch was bought right? Crouch's main role was to hold up the ball and bring the midfield forward, mostly against lesser side and this caused alot of problems to opponents.

your spot on, on Liverpool acting like a unit, Rafa built the team that way.

[Scottbot]

Certainly at the start of the season, it seemed as though Rafa was trying to play with 1 striker, and 5 in midfield. But we just didn't have the attacking midfielders to make it work - the striker was isolated, with few midfielders getting forward to support - something that the 4-5-1 (or 4-2-3-1, whatever you want to call it) requires if it is to be anything more than a defensive formation.

Decent post Saint. I get the impression that Rafa would still like to play with just the one up front for much of the time but you're right when you say we don't quite have the personnel to make it work. However i don't think it is all about having the midfielders to do the job. If you look at our front men the only man who really fits the bill to play as the lone man is Crouch but i have always felt he is a bit of a sitting duck when he's up on his own. He does a decent job holding the ball up and of course he will always win plenty of flick-ons if the midfielders get beyond him often enough. However, Crouch clearly looks more comfortable with a partner (most strikers do) and i think he lacks the mobility to cause enough problems for the opposition centre-backs. It's relatively easy for one to get tight and challenge for headers while the other simply has to drop off and pick up the bits and pieces. For me a lone striker has to be able to do a bit of everything. He needs to be strong, mobile, use the ball intelligently, attack the ball in the box and he needs to be a good finisher. Drogba gets a lot of grief from fans (especially on here) but he plays the role better than Crouch. He is VERY effective (as Heskey could and should have been) for Chelsea and is key to the way they play. Not the prettiest of players and he is guilty of some shocking misses but a real handful when he is on song.

I do think Crouch can be effective as a lone front man but if you want him to do the job then i think you're right when you say the midfield needs to change. My preference for 4-5-1 (or 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1) is to play with two genuine wingers who's strength is dribbling with the ball and running at full-backs. Crouch would be a far more effective target man if he had the likes of Duff and Robben running at players, getting past the full-backs and forcing the centre-halfs out towards their own flank (which is the last place they ever want to be.)

My guess is that Rafa will sign a striker who can do that 'bit of everything' and also get himself someone like Pennant to come in and run at defenders. Kuyt looks like he has the attributes to play lone striker but having watched more of him this season, i really like David Villa who is made for the role. If we have (had) the money i'd love to see Pennant in on the cheap and then break the bank for Villa (unlikely i know    )

[Bad Bob]

Having never had the pleasure of watching Valencia play under Rafa, I'll reserve comment rather than talk out of my a.rse on this one.

I do wonder, though, how the Steven Gerrard factor changes the whole equation?  St. Mike, you drew a parallel between Stevie and Barraja but did Barraja ever have the freedom going forward that Stevie now enjoys?  My own feeling is that Stevie's a different animal to the players Rafa's coached in the past and thus requires some special accommodations.  Throw in the pace of the English game and the tried-and-true formula of 4-4-2 success in the Prem and I can see Rafa adjusting his master plan somewhat long term.

Now, had Gerrard skipped off to Chelsea last summer we may well have seen Rafa pour all of the proceeds into buying the needed players to create Valencia Mark II.  It would certainly be interesting to see that parallel-universe Liverpool in action! (Not that I'm sorry that Stevie stayed, mind...)   

[Sabre]

Good thread.

Well I spent a good time reading google but didn't find much info about his past tactics and methods (before Valencia), just some notes in Tenerife spell, where he seemed to stick to the very same ideas he's applying now. First of all, and I'm not being a fan, but I think that we've reached further than Valencia as a team. Yes, if I had to bet money in a match between Liverpool and Benitez's Valencia I'd bet for Liverpool.

There are similarities though. An important factor, rotations. Rotations were discussed earlier this season precisely when we weren't playing well at the start of the season. Many questioned the rotations, saying that there are players that should not be rested. Rafa proved them wrong. He used them at Valencia, he's using them here. That's a similarity and I think he's going to stick with it. The result is that we've ended the season very well, the sensation that we had at some point of being knackered wasn't real, if the season had even more games, the better for us, the distance to Chelsea would be even shorter.

Another similarity with Valencia is that when he won the league there, he also had a bad start, just as we did. He was questioned, there were painting in the walls protesting against him, and some people asked him to be sacked (Valencia is not a model club when it comes to patience, they're crowd are impatient). He boosted as he has done here, and he won the league barely. The difference is that Chelsea has been quite solid this season, or perhaps that the mid-low table teams of Spanish league are more cheeky than the english ones when they face the leader of the table. But the progress has been similar. Slow start, big boost, ending of the season with a lot of fuel. Rotations have been and will be a key tactic of Rafa. I wasn't a rotation fan, but I am now.

Another thing I've learnt through the reading of Rafa's past is that he likes to play wide with two real wingers. If he gets a right winger, it wouldn't be a surprise to me to see again Liverpool playing with one pure striker, or a Striker and Luis Garcia behind him. I see Alonso and Gerrard bossing the midfield, and I don't expect Gerrard on the right again.

I don't see Rafa will abandon the line of 4 behind under any circumstamces, to be honest.

Fúck Valencia Mark II. We're further than that already, just a little adjustments, a right winger, and a good striker, and we'll fight for the league. If Chelsea hasn't a comfortable distance from the very beginning, it will be a whole different story.

I do wonder, though, how the Steven Gerrard factor changes the whole equation?  St. Mike, you drew a parallel between Stevie and Barraja but did Barraja ever have the freedom going forward that Stevie now enjoys?  My own feeling is that Stevie's a different animal to the players Rafa's coached in the past and thus requires some special accommodations.

No, Baraja wasn't as creative as Gerrard, nor explosive, nor he had the freedom Gerrard has. Liverpool works for Gerrard. In Liverpool the team do not work for the strikers, not at least this season and the past. And that's something that the strikers will notice in their tally, even if you bring shevshenko. As long as it works, that's ok with me. Baraja was (and still is) a great midfielder, but he's a tough worker rather than the Riquelmesque creative midfielder.

Since Rafa has started playing 2 strikers, we've posed far more of a threat, with the ball sticking up top long enough for the midfield to catch up, and with more width.

Maybe playing a 4-4-2 explains why Momo and Xabi don't "hunt as a pack" - because they need to hold their positions much more, being the only midfielders in the centre of the pitch.

Whether Rafa will decide, following summer signings, to revert to a 4-2-3-1 or not is an interesting question. Clearly he is looking to sign more + better attacking midfielders at the moment.

I struggled to understand but I'm not sure of what is the hunt as a pack concept (I think I understand a bit, but I want to be sure). I disagree the point of buying attacking midfielders, I don't see how that will happen , please make me see why. If we get the right wing well covered, Hamman will be the defensive sub of Alonso, and to give Gerrard a rest we have Sissoko. If we play with two clear strikers, I'll find difficult to find a place for Garcia! so I don't think we're going to buy attacking midfielders. (excuse me if I got you wrong, the language you know!)

[Anfield Kop]

good post st mike