Liverpool FC Forum

[Effes]

I thinkour strongest team has Alonso, Gerrard AND Sissoko.

I agree that Rafa will not want to play SG on the right - which leads to a 4-5-1?

[tel]

Given the times he's tried & failed with 4-2-3-1, I'm not sure if Rafa is convinced this is the system for EPL. For this to work you need all 3 attacking midfielders to at least get into double figures, and only Stevie looks capable of that at the moment. It could work if we can sign a prolific goalscorer, someone who can create his own chances instead of relying on service. I don't think Crouch is the man for this job. He plays well with a partner, but by himself too often the midfield isn't close enough to pick up his flick ons.

In an ideal world Rafa would love to play 4-2-3-1, as it's the system he's used wherever he's been, but I think next season we can expect to only see it used in Europe, where it seems to have worked quite well. Back at home I expect to see 4-4-2 with some genuine width, or the 3-5-2 I mentioned if we get the right players.

Benitez´s sides have ALWAYS been focused on a kick-a$$, hard midfield and a stingy defense. Notice the lack of top strikers in both teams. Sure they are nice, but in his philosophy you´re better off spending butching up your midfield than splurging on strikers.

Already we can see enormous comparisons between the 2 sides...Valencia were more clinical than us, we are incredibly profligate in comparison...but the relative strengths and weaknesses of the 2 sides are in similar areas of the elevens...

Rafa's first 2 seasons at Valencia were characterised by low goal tallies at both ends of the field..in his third Mista banged in 20+ goals I think and they raced to the title with nearly 80 goals...

Lets hope we can sign a 20+man in the summer or Robbie gets back to his best cos there's no way on God's Earth any of the others are gonna crack off a shedload of goals next season and I'd be surprised if Gerrard ever has such a prolific season as the last one in the rest of his Liverpool career.

Sound in theory. Except Mista was top scorer in La Liga the 2nd time Rafa won the title.

The first time round, Carew was one of the most dangerous goal threats running around in Spain. Look what he and Aimar did against liverpool when we met them in Europe. We couldnt get near the pair of them.

[JC_81]

Some good points in this thread.  First of all, are we at the level that Rafa's Valencia team reached - clearly not yet.  Surely that Valencia team was one of, if not the, most efficient club sides of the modern era.  By that I mean that they weren't flash or particularly great to watch, they didn't throw men forward and they didn't have any real superstars in the side (the likes of Claudio Lopez and Mendieta had left by that point, I suppose you could have classed Aimar as a superstar at a stretch).  They hardly ever lost games though, rarely conceded goals and their goals:chances created ratio is probably the best I have ever seen - very clinical, and that for me is the main difference between Valencia then and Liverpool now.

In terms of formation, I can't see the 4-2-3-1 formation Valencia used being good enough to win us the premiership.  Only Chelsea have succeeded in England with that formation, and that is because they had the exact players to suit it and they were the first over here in recent years to play that way, which made it difficult for other sides.  But even now Chelsea have discarded it for the diamond in midfield because teams have cottoned on how to play against that system over here.  We don't have the players to make that system work yet, it may be deployed on occasion but we're going to have more success in the long run playing 2 up top imo.

The major similarity between that Valencia team and us now is nothing to do with formation or even style of play (you need a slightly different style playing in England rather than Spain as the game is quicker and more physical - Benitez had a rude awakening here in his first season in the EPL), but in mentality.  We attack and defend as a team, leaving no gaps in the pitch and squeezing the life out of teams - the high defensive line enables this and I suppose that is the one major tactic that Benitez has applied to his Liverpool and Valencia sides. 

The other similarities between the 2 regimes, of which there are probably many, are going to happen out of the public eye - training, socialising, club rules, all contributing to the team spirit.  Clearly the team is fitter and more bonded than under our previous manager and it just may be that these subtle changes are the most important in building a winning side.

[66-1112520797]

The other similarities between the 2 regimes, of which there are probably many, are going to happen out of the public eye - training, socialising, club rules, all contributing to the team spirit.  Clearly the team is fitter and more bonded than under our previous manager and it just may be that these subtle changes are the most important in building a winning side.

I'd say that when any new manager walks into a club he would have to lay down the foundations. Even before getting his players on the training pitch he would bring his own rules,work ethics and persona to the club. Then that whole attitude is brought onto the training pitch. Half the battle in football is the mentality, and along with his tactics all this comes together to form possibly a winning side.

To me it is clear even with a mostly  Houllier inherited team Rafa is able to get more out of his players than Houllier did. So that tells me that everything mentioned in the paragraph above is just as equal in importance as formations and  tactics soley.

Like Valencia, Liverpool reflect Rafas influence and this is his own signature on his teams. Sure his tactics are similar and formations at times. But like John said maybe its the other side of the game that makes a team of winners.

[stmichael]

I struggled to understand but I'm not sure of what is the hunt as a pack concept (I think I understand a bit, but I want to be sure).

Regarding the pack thing, the pack is the entire outfield team. All of them are expected to work incredibly hard when we dont have the ball, in order to close down spaces, force the other team to give up the ball and put us in a position to break forward quickly. Its why fitnesss levels (regarded to be not good enough last season) are so important and why we have one of the best fitness coaches in Europe.

Our fitness was good this year and there's no longer a fear that we will tire towards the end of games. Bar the last two league games we seem to always finish games stronger than others.

Its a noticeable trait of the team and its wonderful to watch the work ethic both going forward and defending. We've not looked that good as a team since probably 2001/2002 when Houlliers team reached what turned out to be their pinnacle.

[tubby]

I struggled to understand but I'm not sure of what is the hunt as a pack concept (I think I understand a bit, but I want to be sure).

Regarding the pack thing, the pack is the entire outfield team. All of them are expected to work incredibly hard when we dont have the ball, in order to close down spaces, force the other team to give up the ball and put us in a position to break forward quickly. Its why fitnesss levels (regarded to be not good enough last season) are so important and why we have one of the best fitness coaches in Europe.

Our fitness was good this year and there's no longer a fear that we will tire towards the end of games. Bar the last two league games we seem to always finish games stronger than others.

Its a noticeable trait of the team and its wonderful to watch the work ethic both going forward and defending. We've not looked that good as a team since probably 2001/2002 when Houlliers team reached what turned out to be their pinnacle.

Yeah i was surprised that the team remained relativly fit for the whole season given when we started

[Espionage]

I think that Rafa was well on his way on emulating the "Valencia Model" until Mr. Sissoko came along. I think that he has something better in mind!
The midfield combination of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is the BEST in the world, and hence it will be the focul point of the team.  Rafa will not bench any of them, i think that we will see 2 wing backs with a 5-3-2 system.  Judging on Rafa's signings this seems the most obvious option, all these centre back and wing backs (keeping in mind that Gonzalez likes playing there).  That leaves Garcia, Fowler, Kewell and Pongolle will partner or play for Crouch up front or play as second striker etc. Finnan/Kronkamp can cover the right wing back.  I think that Rafa will not hesitate in changing the back 4 to 3 as some have said, the good thing about the 5-3-2 is that it can turn from defensive into a very free-flowing style of football.
I cant wait till this World Cup is over, i wanna see how Rafa's plan takes shape!

Sh.it got an exam in 9 and 1/2 hours that i havnt studied for enough ><!!!!!!!!!!
c'mon 50%!!!!!

[stmichael]

The midfield combination of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is the BEST in the world, and hence it will be the focul point of the team.  Rafa will not bench any of them, i think that we will see 2 wing backs with a 5-3-2 system. 

I was actually discussing this with my mate last night in the pub. Basically the central midfield was the main area of discussion. He was basically arguing that Gerrard HAS to be moved centrally to get the best out of him and keep him happy.

My argument was that Gerrard was voted PFA player of the year and scored over 20 goals playing mainly right hand side of midfield and was the driving force behind our impressive season, so why change it now?

If Gerrard moves inside who do you drop???

Alonso is so important to our team in the way he dictates the pace of the game and Sissoko is the engine who was vital in improving our performances away from home that neither can be left out on a regular basis.

I was just interested to hear everyones opinion on this, who would your ideal partnership be for the centre of midfield next year??

[ConnO'var]

I think that Rafa was well on his way on emulating the "Valencia Model" until Mr. Sissoko came along. I think that he has something better in mind!
The midfield combination of Gerrard, Alonso and Sissoko is the BEST in the world, and hence it will be the focul point of the team.  Rafa will not bench any of them, i think that we will see 2 wing backs with a 5-3-2 system.  Judging on Rafa's signings this seems the most obvious option, all these centre back and wing backs (keeping in mind that Gonzalez likes playing there).  That leaves Garcia, Fowler, Kewell and Pongolle will partner or play for Crouch up front or play as second striker etc. Finnan/Kronkamp can cover the right wing back.  I think that Rafa will not hesitate in changing the back 4 to 3 as some have said, the good thing about the 5-3-2 is that it can turn from defensive into a very free-flowing style of football.
I cant wait till this World Cup is over, i wanna see how Rafa's plan takes shape!

Sh.it got an exam in 9 and 1/2 hours that i havnt studied for enough ><!!!!!!!!!!
c'mon 50%!!!!!

I agree on the possibilities of a 5-3-2 formation.
It's a formation that I find promotes free flowing football as the 2 wing-backs (they have to be super fit mind you) allows us the extra coverage on defence whilst providing plenty of width in attack. With a midfield trio of Momo, StevieG (slightly advanced) and Xabi in the middle of the park, we're gonna be pretty tough to break down. However, the key to a formation like this is outstanding wingbacks. Else, the system falls down like a house of cards as we'd not have enough pace, strength and fitness to back up the defence and insufficient quality and flair to terrorize in attack.

If we (by some miracle) manage to get Alves, that's the right wing-back covered. But am not convinced that either Riise (not quick enough) or Kewell (can't defend if his life depended on it) can fill the slot on the left.

I still think that we have enough quality in attack with Crouch and Robbie... Will still need one more for back up at least... But employing this formation won't require us breaking the bank for over-priced strikers.

Whatever Rafa's got in the transfer kitty needs to be spent on Alves and Zambrotta if we're even gonna attempt this system.

What do u lot think of this team?

                          Reina

              Agger    Carra    Hyppia

Alves                                          Zambrotta
              Momo            Alonso
                       Gerrard

               Crouch       Fowler

Investment required:
1. Alves
2. Zambrotta if Juve go down to Serie B
3. Back up Centre Back - Would be nice if we had someone from the academy
4. Back up striker or even a main one if funds suffice. I'd even be happy with Li' Luis in the strikers role.

Honestly don't know too much bout Aurelio and Paletta so can't comment bout where they'd fit into the system as 1st eleven or back-up. Totally stumped bout what to do with Speedy, Kewell and Zenden though.

[stmichael]

One of the biggest differences so far - and something that will come when the right players are introduced - is the ability to really hurt teams on the counter. Valencia were, and still are to a certain extent, deadly on the counter attack.

We've notched a few - Riise, Xabi and Stevie seem to often be involved, but i think Rafa would like to see it more often, and with a more clinical end product also. I expect that to be something we'll be seeing a lot more of over the coming years.

Mr Gonzalez could well be the next step for this aspect of our game to progress.

[JC_81]

One of the biggest differences so far - and something that will come when the right players are introduced - is the ability to really hurt teams on the counter. Valencia were, and still are to a certain extent, deadly on the counter attack.

We've notched a few - Riise, Xabi and Stevie seem to often be involved, but i think Rafa would like to see it more often, and with a more clinical end product also. I expect that to be something we'll be seeing a lot more of over the coming years.

Mr Gonzalez could well be the next step for this aspect of our game to progress.

Taking advantage by hitting teams on the break is definitely something we could improve on, and Valencia did it well.  Although to call them a counter-attacking team would be incorrect imo.  They controlled games and passed teams off the park, while holding a high defensive line, but if a team did mount an attack and it broke down, they had pace in the wide areas to hurt teams.  Obviously we lack pace at the moment, both out wide and up front.  Cisse and Gerrard were the only players in the team last season with any real pace.

But being able to launch counter attacks when appropriate, and being a strictly counter-attacking team are completely different.  For example under Houllier we were a counter attacking side, defending deep and with an exceptionally quick striker making us deadly on the counter (but also making us quite one-dimensional).  Benitez's Valencia were a good footballing side playing possession football, but also knew how to break quickly.  I think you're right that Gonzalez will definitely help add this dimension to our play next season.

[stmichael]

One of the biggest differences so far - and something that will come when the right players are introduced - is the ability to really hurt teams on the counter. Valencia were, and still are to a certain extent, deadly on the counter attack.

We've notched a few - Riise, Xabi and Stevie seem to often be involved, but i think Rafa would like to see it more often, and with a more clinical end product also. I expect that to be something we'll be seeing a lot more of over the coming years.

Mr Gonzalez could well be the next step for this aspect of our game to progress.

Taking advantage by hitting teams on the break is definitely something we could improve on, and Valencia did it well.  Although to call them a counter-attacking team would be incorrect imo.  They controlled games and passed teams off the park, while holding a high defensive line, but if a team did mount an attack and it broke down, they had pace in the wide areas to hurt teams.  Obviously we lack pace at the moment, both out wide and up front.  Cisse and Gerrard were the only players in the team last season with any real pace.

But being able to launch counter attacks when appropriate, and being a strictly counter-attacking team are completely different.  For example under Houllier we were a counter attacking side, defending deep and with an exceptionally quick striker making us deadly on the counter (but also making us quite one-dimensional).  Benitez's Valencia were a good footballing side playing possession football, but also knew how to break quickly.  I think you're right that Gonzalez will definitely help add this dimension to our play next season.

The key to Rafa's Valencia was two pacy wingers on both flanks. That's why they are very deadly on the break. As you say we have generally lacked pace down the years, especially in wide areas.

We've already fixed one flank by a signing of Mark Gonzales who will play on the left. We still need a pacy right winger and I am sure we will get that man in the summer, probably Pennant. I am quite sure Rafa will revert us back to 4-2-3-1 once we got the proper individual. That's why he is reluctant to invest in the striker department.

[Ola Mr Benitez]

I think he will probably leave the defence pretty much as it is, with maybe the only cjange Alves coming in (I hope).

I think we will play only one up front and 5 in midfield. something like this...

                  Reina
Alves  Carra     Hypia/Agger    Risse
New   Sissoko   Alonso      Gonzales
                 Gerrard
             Fowler/Crouch/New

Gerrard is the best attacking midfielder in the world, (which is why Sven is playing him in a defensive role..idiot!).

We do seem to have many spare players if this is the team he uses... Kewell, Risse, Zendon, Garcia, Krompkamp at least one of the attackers.  All great players who have helped Liverpool make the advances they have made in the last 2 years. But that does allow him to tinker and rest players which has to be a good thing.

Thanks EddieC.. for pointing out my mistake..oops

[EddieC]

Alves will be used as a RM, he plays RB at the moment but can play either. A LB he definately is not.

IMO Rafa might look at using wing backs next season, if he can tie up the deals for Alves & Aurelio. Along with Riise, Finnan & Kromkamp we'll have a lot of options for this position, not forgetting Warnock as well.

Obviously this depends on getting the right players, but seemed to work well when we played Newcastle last a couple of months ago.

[John]

Like This           

  Reina
Alves  Carra     Hypia/Agger    Risse
New   Sissoko   Alonso      Gonzales
                Gerrard
            Fowler/Crouch/New

New = Yasser Al-Qahtani

Just Fiew Second