Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:01 am

A question for you lot.

Considering that we might challenge for the title, and considering that a title can be decided for 3 or 4 points, how do you see the local cup competitions?

I mean, is this year in which every point might be important at the end, is this a year in which we should "leave aside" those competitions? (for instance for using those games to rest players, not league games like today)

by **JoeTerp** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:01 am

being on a contract year, I don't know if Rafa can really afford the chance of punting on the domestic cups. I know nobody will think that a Carling Cup would save our season, but if we come really close and miss the league by a point or two, can Rafa deal with the haters that will point out 3 seasons without a trophy? Don't think its worth the risk because we should always be within an arms length of the domestic cups, even with resting some key players.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 4:11 am

LFC2007 wrote:A change too far tonight I think.

I agree. Interestingly, I don't think any of the subs played their way into contention at all. Hyypia was rock solid but he's always going to be down the pecking order. Babel, Lucas and especially Pennant, however, did not treat the match like the opportunity to give Rafa a selection headache, IMO.

BTW, in answer to Sabre's question, we need to focus on the league and let the chips fall where they may in terms of the domestic cups by giving the reserves and kids a run out.

by **Bam** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:25 am

I wanted to stress that what we haven't seen rotation tonight.

I need another coffee :Oo:

by **Espionage** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:34 am

I posted this in the Portsmouth thread but its probably more relevant here:

I agree with most posters on here that maybe the amount of changes was a bit much, we lacked a bit of creativity but I guess that if Pennant had a decent game we should have had a few more crosses into dangerous areas.

Keep this in mind though:

Oct 18th Wigan (H)
Oct 22nd A Madrid (A)
Oct 26th Chelsea (A)
Oct 29th Portsmouth (H)
Nov 1st Tottenham (A)
Nov 4th A Madrid (H)
Nov 8th West Brom (H)
Nov 12th Tottenham (A) Carling Cup
Nov 15th Bolton (A)

Games are coming thick and fast and we cant field our best 11 twice a week for almost a month. All of these games are important, even the Carling Cup I would be hesitant to play too weak a side as Tottenham will not field a weak side.

Every game is important and rotation is essential to winning the league despite what Rafa-bashers have to say; but we have to be intelligent in how we rotate.

by **DanAn** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:34 am

Espionage wrote:I posted this in the Portsmouth thread but its probably more relevant here:

I agree with most posters on here that maybe the amount of changes was a bit much, we lacked a bit of creativity but I guess that if Pennant had a decent game we should have had a few more crosses into dangerous areas.

Keep this in mind though:

Oct 18th Wigan (H)
Oct 22nd A Madrid (A)
Oct 26th Chelsea (A)
Oct 29th Portsmouth (H)
Nov 1st Tottenham (A)
Nov 4th A Madrid (H)
Nov 8th West Brom (H)
Nov 12th Tottenham (A) Carling Cup
Nov 15th Bolton (A)

Games are coming thick and fast and we cant field our best 11 twice a week for almost a month. All of these games are important, even the Carling Cup I would be hesitant to play too weak a side as Tottenham will not field a weak side.

Every game is important and rotation is essential to winning the league despite what Rafa-bashers have to say; but we have to be intelligent in how we rotate.9

9 games in a month is going to be very tough on the bodies. In hindsight resting Riera and Keane payed off both having played a lot of minutes and Riera isn't the fittest player IMO.

Spare a thought for Carra who has played every single minute!

I think we are lucky that they are all bottom half teams. We really should come away with 5 wins but crucially we need some of them in the bag by 1/2 time both for the chance to rest players and to build our relatively poor goal difference.

I think there is a very good chance of seeing N'Gog this month and I am hoping he can preform well.

by **Espionage** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:04 am

DanAn wrote:
Espionage wrote:I posted this in the Portsmouth thread but its probably more relevant here:

I agree with most posters on here that maybe the amount of changes was a bit much, we lacked a bit of creativity but I guess that if Pennant had a decent game we should have had a few more crosses into dangerous areas.

Keep this in mind though:

Oct 18th Wigan (H)
Oct 22nd A Madrid (A)
Oct 26th Chelsea (A)
Oct 29th Portsmouth (H)
Nov 1st Tottenham (A)
Nov 4th A Madrid (H)
Nov 8th West Brom (H)
Nov 12th Tottenham (A) Carling Cup
Nov 15th Bolton (A)

Games are coming thick and fast and we cant field our best 11 twice a week for almost a month. All of these games are important, even the Carling Cup I would be hesitant to play too weak a side as Tottenham will not field a weak side.

Every game is important and rotation is essential to winning the league despite what Rafa-bashers have to say; but we have to be intelligent in how we rotate.9

9 games in a month is going to be very tough on the bodies. In hindsight resting Riera and Keane payed off both having played a lot of minutes and Riera isn't the fittest player IMO.

Spare a thought for Carra who has played every single minute!

I think we are lucky that they are all bottom half teams. We really should come away with 5 wins but crucially we need some of them in the bag by 1/2 time both for the chance to rest players and to build our relatively poor goal difference.

I think there is a very good chance of seeing N'Gog this month and I am hoping he can preform well.

I would not write off Tottenham, I dont believe for a second that they are a bottom half team and they are showing it now.

Personally I would expect Carragher to be rested for at least 1 of the up coming fixtures, maybe both West Brom and Tottenham in the CC. If we lose Carragher to a silly injury now, who the hell are we going to play in the CL?

by **Scottbot** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:49 am

I was also a bit perplexed when i saw the starting line-up for this one and i agree that we did get away with it to some degree. I didn't understand the exclusion of Riera as his performances have been pivotal for me since he arrived and I would have prefered Mascherano's ball chasing to Lucas's sitting. Hyppia made perfect sense though and I would have been dissapointed had the big Fin not played in this one. I had no problem with Pennant after his performance against Wigan.

Having said that - Benitez also revealed that Robbie Keane and Albert Riera were on the bench as a precaution because they were both nursing knocks from the weekend.

"Keane and Riera had some problems and were a little bit tired so I wanted to protect them," he added.

So expect to see both players back in the starting line-up for the weekend and with a bit of luck, Torres as well. As for the game, it was VERY frustrating to listen to but when I saw the highlights i thought we played quite well. It was an energetic display, we had several chances, got a lot of shots off but couldn't put one away early. Gerrard was excellent and i thought Kuyt looked bright and confident also.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 10:49 am

Well we got away with it against Pompey at Home, and no doubt we'll field a more sensible line up against Tottenham so all is good, but is it? I've long held the theory that one game leads into another, one performance into another and momentum is a constantly fluctuating entity. I know we won against Pompey, so therefore we've maintained our winning run and therefore by definition our momentum or so you'd think.

I actually think the Portsmouth game was something of a missed opportunity to tell the truth. We looked like possible league champions at Stamford Bridge, and we had a pefect opportunity to emphatically underline that with a 3 or 4 nil and really keep the bandwagon rolling. As it was, we got up 1-0 with a late penalty and my worry is that those in our squad who don't in their heart of hearts believe that we can win it (and there will be a few I should think), will have had their suspicions confirmed by the over-styling and predictably stilted performance.

So can you simply revert to somewhere near your best team and pick it up where you left off before the baffling selection? Well yes you can, but I have a feeling that we won't and may suffer a slight hangover at White Hart Lane as (IMHO) a direct result of our over styled line up and subsequent loss of momentum. Changing the team is fair enough, but change it as much as we did here and you change not just the style and the pattern, but the whole fabric of the group.

I hope I'm wrong and that we can seamlessly slip back into "title challenger" mode, but I fear we may pay a heavy price. The light has been seen, but just occasionally it seems we can't resist reaching for the sunglasses.

by **Scottbot** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:06 am

bigmick wrote:Well we got away with it against Pompey at Home, and no doubt we'll field a more sensible line up against Tottenham so all is good, but is it? I've long held the theory that one game leads into another, one performance into another and momentum is a constantly fluctuating entity. I know we won against Pompey, so therefore we've maintained our winning run and therefore by definition our momentum or so you'd think.

I actually think the Portsmouth game was something of a missed opportunity to tell the truth. We looked like possible league champions at Stamford Bridge, and we had a pefect opportunity to emphatically underline that with a 3 or 4 nil and really keep the bandwagon rolling. As it was, we got up 1-0 with a late penalty and my worry is that those in our squad who don't in their heart of hearts believe that we can win it (and there will be a few I should think), will have had their suspicions confirmed by the over-styling and predictably stilted performance.

So can you simply revert to somewhere near your best team and pick it up where you left off before the baffling selection? Well yes you can, but I have a feeling that we won't and may suffer a slight hangover at White Hart Lane as (IMHO) a direct result of our over styled line up and subsequent loss of momentum. Changing the team is fair enough, but change it as much as we did here and you change not just the style and the pattern, but the whole fabric of the group.

I hope I'm wrong and that we can seamlessly slip back into "title challenger" mode, but I fear we may pay a heavy price. The light has been seen, but just occasionally it seems we can't resist reaching for the sunglasses.

I think you're worrying a bit too much there mate. I don't doubt the Spurs game will be a tough one and tbh i'd be happy enough with a draw looking at the way things have changed up there. i haven't watched the whole of the Portsmouth game (just the MOTD highlights) and it looks like we played quite well, far from our worst performance of the season. It was important to win yesterday, a three or four nil drubbing would have been nice but we've yet to win a game in that manner with our strongest team in place this season so i'm not overly concerned. To be honest, I don't really think we have a 3-4 nil game in us without our star striker so until he is back we might have to make do with the scrappy 1-nils.

There does seem to be a feeling of 'we have to stay at the top as long as possible' and then as us soon as we're off it's all over, as soon as we lose it will be like 02/03 again. I don't actually think we will make great front-runners and fancy our chances would be better (come the back end of the season) if we were sniffing around a couple of points back instead of sitting at the top of the table. It shouldn't be a great drama (it won't be from me) if we draw or lose to Spurs this weekend. I just want to be amongst it and in with a chance come March and I'll be happy.

by **stmichael** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:18 am

I didn't really have any problems with the starting line up last night as certain players needed to be rested but I thought we were crying out for a striker to be on the pitch in the 2nd half. We effectively had Kuyt and Gerrard up front, both of whom I consider to be midfielders. Kuyt's natural game is to drop deep which is fine when he plays up front with someone who will play on the shoulder of the centre backs. When Gerrard plays so far forward it neutralises him, as he's at his best coming from deep and getting into the box that way. Last night he spent too much time with his back to goal. I don't mind the fact that Rafa started like that but it didn't work and I thought he should have put Babel upfront, or put Keane on earlier (although I understand why he didn't want to play Keane).

by **Scottbot** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:36 am

The manner of the win last night was pretty much the same as the majority of our wins this season. We started brightly but couldn't score early, dropped off, looked workman-like for much of the game, played well for some of it and scored a late goal. it's been the story of our season. We've only played REALLY well in the biggest games against the mancs, Chelsea and Neverton.

by **NiftyNeil** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:57 am

Players needed to be rested last night. I fully understand why he made the changes. Keane was carrying a knock (Kuyt didn't start the last match either so was fresher). Babel was brought in to give Riera a needed rest. Pennant was brought in to give us the width lost by excluding Riera. Lucas is a more attacking midfielder than Mascherano (we were playing Pompey at home) and Hyypia was brought in for his heading abilities (to nullify Crouchy). It wasn't a vintage performance, but we won.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:03 pm

bigmick wrote:Well we got away with it against Pompey at Home, and no doubt we'll field a more sensible line up against Tottenham so all is good, but is it? I've long held the theory that one game leads into another, one performance into another and momentum is a constantly fluctuating entity. I know we won against Pompey, so therefore we've maintained our winning run and therefore by definition our momentum or so you'd think.

I actually think the Portsmouth game was something of a missed opportunity to tell the truth. We looked like possible league champions at Stamford Bridge, and we had a pefect opportunity to emphatically underline that with a 3 or 4 nil and really keep the bandwagon rolling. As it was, we got up 1-0 with a late penalty and my worry is that those in our squad who don't in their heart of hearts believe that we can win it (and there will be a few I should think), will have had their suspicions confirmed by the over-styling and predictably stilted performance.

So can you simply revert to somewhere near your best team and pick it up where you left off before the baffling selection? Well yes you can, but I have a feeling that we won't and may suffer a slight hangover at White Hart Lane as (IMHO) a direct result of our over styled line up and subsequent loss of momentum. Changing the team is fair enough, but change it as much as we did here and you change not just the style and the pattern, but the whole fabric of the group.

I hope I'm wrong and that we can seamlessly slip back into "title challenger" mode, but I fear we may pay a heavy price. The light has been seen, but just occasionally it seems we can't resist reaching for the sunglasses.

I'm not sure, Mick. You seem to be suggesting here that 4 changes was the reason why we looked disjointed and only managed to eek out a win with a late penalty. Fair enough, that's been an important part of your argument against rotation: that it disrupts flow and rhythm. Just to play devil's advocate, though, another aspect of this debate that you've highlighted a time or two in the past 4 years (

) is the idea that, when you pick a fairly settled side (DISCLAIMER FOR THE NUMPTIES: Mick's not saying you need to pick the same 11 every week), you create a proper competition for places. You'll have the lads on the bench week in, week out getting antsy with a lack of playing time. Ideally, they'll be busting a gut in training to stay in the reckoning and, when, they get their chance, they'll fly about the pitch doing their damndest to give Rafa a selection problem.

Well, as it happens, most of us agree that Rafa has been picking a fairly settled side so far this season and, yet, I saw none of that hunger from Babel, Pennant or Lucas. Zilch. Is it possible to suggest, then, that, had these lads been up for it like they should have been (given their long stretch on the bench), we might have seen the drubbing you were looking for? Perhaps Rafa had hopes that giving these lads a game would inspire some big performances and produce a comprehensive victory? Where's the 'hungry cheetah' effect?**

**As an homage to our 'delayed gazelle' affect, I think we should use the 'hungry cheetah' effect to describe players who, having spent many a match watching from the sidelines, get their chance to play and respond by tearing around the pitch like a man possessed, in search of unwitting prey who never saw them coming!

by **Avi Cohen** » Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:03 pm

I have been a dissenter of Rafa's rotation policy in the past and although I wouldn't have made as many changes as he did, I understand fully why he changed the side.

Okay, so we didn't play to our best which is understandable after Sunday's away win at Chelsea (only team to do it in 4+ years we have to remember and that can take a lot out of a team both physically and mentally) and the changes Rafa made, but I think it's important to point out that we would have lost or drawn this game last season.

We're definitely making progress and we should concentrate on that.

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