Liverpool FC Forum

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:35 pm

As I watched our performance against Chelsea yesterday, I was impressed by our efficiency, our work ethic, our passing, our use of width, our ability to squeeze the game and suck the life out of Chelsea, and our ability to convert minimal chances into a goal and a win. It also struck me that this is exactly the type of performance that Benitez's Valencia inflicted on us on our home patch several years ago, and here was our team, under Benitez, doing the same thing to Chelsea.

Benitez himself described the performance as 'almost flawless'. Does he finally think he is starting to realise his 'Valencia model' at Liverpool after 5 years of trying?

Obviously the crucial difference between the two sides is consistency. Valencia churned out this type of performance regularly under Benitez over 3 seasons. Other notable differences are that the Valencia side did it with much rotation and with a 'between the lines' player as the focal point of the side. Arguably Valencia also did it in a league which was then easier to win than the English Premiership is now. There are many variables, but for me this is the type of performance, attitude and balance of a team that Benitez has been striving for.

Many of the pieces were already in place last season, but with the return to form of Alonso (almost like a new player imo), the addition of Riera (who has made a huge difference to our balance in terms of width and ability to retain possession under pressure) and more sensible use of rotation, has Benitez finally stumbled upon the winning formula?

How do you think the current Liverpool side compares to the great Valencia side of the early 2000's? Are we close, nowhere near, or just about there?

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:41 pm

How do you think the current Liverpool side compares to the great Valencia side of the early 2000's?

I think we got at the Valencia level in 2005, and right now we are far a better football team than Rafa's Valencia. FAR BETTER.

I think that you mates have an ideal image of that Valencia because they outplayed us before the Rafa saga. 20 passes in a row, and all that.

Well quite simply that Valencia wouldn't have done 20 passes in a row against the current Liverpool. Why? because they wouldn't be as comfortable with our pressing. These days we're one of the strongests sides of the world defending collectively, and back then we weren't.

So if I could bring that Valencia to 2008 with a Star Trek machine of time, and they played against Liverpool, you know where's my money: Liverpool Football Club.

by **tubby** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:43 pm

We have definatley showed at times that we can make nice goals by passing it around (Man City) and almost pulled of a cracker against Chelsea.

by **metalhead** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:53 pm

Sabre wrote:
How do you think the current Liverpool side compares to the great Valencia side of the early 2000's?

I think we got at the Valencia level in 2005, and right now we are far a better football team than Rafa's Valencia. FAR BETTER.

I think that you mates have an ideal image of that Valencia because they outplayed us before the Rafa saga. 20 passes in a row, and all that.

Well quite simply that Valencia wouldn't have done 20 passes in a row against the current Liverpool. Why? because they wouldn't be as comfortable with our pressing. These days we're one of the strongests sides of the world defending collectively, and back then we weren't.

So if I could bring that Valencia to 2008 with a Star Trek machine of time, and they played against Liverpool, you know where's my money: Liverpool Football Club.

In terms of defenders Sabre, I still don't think we are far better than the 2004 valencia one, because they had ayala, who was a top class defender who is not only dominant in the air but positionally excellent. While, Carragher and Agger are excellent defenders, I do think our ariel ability is still a weakness.

In terms of midfielders and strikers, definetly better, although I do believe that Baraja was a quality defencive midfielder, in the similar mould of Hamann.

Just need to get a full back who is good enough, and a geniune right midfielder and we will be a quality side.

by **aCe'** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:55 pm

mmm... im sure most of you watch the spanish league and sabre im sure you watch it and ull have a say on what im gonna say next but ...
i think that if liverpool were playing in the spanish league we'd be winning it comfortably with the way we play now... hell id even go as far as saying that if chelsea. liverpool and Manutd were in the spanish league , Barcelona and Real Madrid would have been playing Uefa cup footie year in year out...

in terms of tactics and defending and overall control of play the english teams are miles ahead of the spanish clubs... spaniards are gifted technically and going forward most of their teams are a joy to watch but imho if the valencia of today had a Benitez or Mourinho or Capello who could and would setup to close down and press oponents and grind out results then theyd yet again be domestic champions...

not sure i make myself very clear but ill giv it another read awhen i sober up a little try to edit it !

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:55 pm

Sabre wrote:
How do you think the current Liverpool side compares to the great Valencia side of the early 2000's?

I think we got at the Valencia level in 2005, and right now we are far a better football team than Rafa's Valencia. FAR BETTER.

I think that you mates have an ideal image of that Valencia because they outplayed us before the Rafa saga. 20 passes in a row, and all that.

Well quite simply that Valencia wouldn't have done 20 passes in a row against the current Liverpool. Why? because they wouldn't be as comfortable with our pressing. These days we're one of the strongests sides of the world defending collectively, and back then we weren't.

So if I could bring that Valencia to 2008 with a Star Trek machine of time, and they played against Liverpool, you know where's my money: Liverpool Football Club.

Interesting views on that Valencia side Sabre, you will have seen them more often than any of us no doubt.

Perhaps the current Liverpool side MAY have beaten them in a one-off game (hypothetically of course), but what about the consistency? Two Spanish titles in 3 years wasn't it?

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:09 pm

Yes but note that they won the league for a point or goal average (haven't googled) and against a Real Madrid and a Barcelona that were not as strong nor as consistent as Chelsea or Manchester United.

Valencia was a good team, but they were beaten aswell eh? I saw a 2-0 in Anoeta and something tells me that just like Rafa took note of Keane last season against us, he took notice of Alonso in that game. That liga winning Valencia John would have been out of the race in England in December because they drew a lot of games. In a League in which the other competitor rarely fails (like here), they wouldn't have been champions.

Valencia's games in Europe though, were great, and that games against Liverpool were superb. But normally, they were a strong team, no doubt, with quality, no doubt, but IMHO not as strong as we're now.

As for ace's question

i think that if liverpool were playing in the spanish league we'd be winning it comfortably with the way we play now...

In terms of football you're probably right, but then you'd go to another country, you'd know the Spanish refs, the Real Madrid bias, and all the fúckwittery surrounding Spanish football and it would be difficult.

But in terms of football you're right. I know Barcelona battered Atletico in the Nou Camp.

But going to the Calderon and outplaying them is something that I have seen... 6? 7 times tops in my life? I'm 32. And most of them in the season they were relegated.

I have seen such a strong team in the first half of the Calderon, and the 90 minutes at Stamford Bridge, that I'm scared

by **tubby** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 10:29 pm

Dont forget we also beat Barca on their ground too. :-)

by **Bam** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:19 pm

I never watched the Valencia side under Rafa so I cannot really make the comparrison.

But I honestly do believe we're one of the most effective and efficient teams in Europe without the possesion of the ball. Even up until a few years ago I wouldnt of said how important this was, but with Rafa being the manager at LFC he's given me much more of an insight into the game, simply by watching the games and hearing him in interviews.

Possesion is vital, and sometimes I still dont think we have this aspect down pat, not imo. Dont get me wrong against Chelsea at times we played some lovely one touch football and carved them open with it. It was nice on the eye and effective.

Our stumbling block imo still appears when we're at home against the likes of Wigan and Stoke where we have the lions share of possesion, but dont always use it aswell as we could. The football we saw against Chelsea was perfect for that game, squeezing play and playing counter attacking football. Its just that when the onus is us more we do still seem to huff and puff our way to break teams down at times. I'll be interested to see how the lads fair up against Pompey on Wednesday as this will be a totally different game in comparrison to the one on Sunday against Chelsea.

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:52 pm

Bam wrote:Our stumbling block imo still appears when we're at home against the likes of Wigan and Stoke where we have the lions share of possesion, but dont always use it aswell as we could. The football we saw against Chelsea was perfect for that game, squeezing play and playing counter attacking football. Its just that when the onus is us more we do still seem to huff and puff our way to break teams down at times. I'll be interested to see how the lads fair up against Pompey on Wednesday as this will be a totally different game in comparrison to the one on Sunday against Chelsea.

It's a fair point.

As Sabre said though, Valencia under Rafa did draw a lot of games too. They were great at squeeziong teams as we did against Chelsea and at playing on the counter, perhaps they also had difficulty in breaking down 'lesser' teams when the onus was on them to attack. I can't confirm this either as I can't say I ever watched Benitez's Valencia against lower table Spanish sides, only in Europe and the odd game against the big Spanish teams, but perhaps that was the case.

I agree though, this is a potential weakness of this Liverpool side. We can't always find the answers when a team shuts up shop at Anfield. I do think we're slightly better at it this season though with the added width Riera gives and with the more open style we have been playing at home (with the full backs seemingly having licence o go forward at will). Agger will help with this as well as he tends to push up and give an extra option at times.

by **neil** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:57 pm

I'm sorry but as I remember the Valencia defeat it had more to do with them fouling us everytime we crossed the halfway line with the ball, the ref didnt caution so they carried on.

by **johnymarcu** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 11:59 pm

I live in Spain and i must say you that this Liverpool in my opinion is better than the Valencia of those years. Yesterday i saw Liverpool a very solid team, i dont remember a clear opportunity of Chelsea, that's is a team.

Liverpool has better strikers, we can't compare Mista with Torres... Liverpool in my opinion has a better goalkeeper, Reina is better than Cañizares, and the middle is almost the same... Mascherano, Alonso vs baraja albelda i dont see a lot os differences.

In conclusion, i believe that today's Liverpool is able to win everything this year, and that valencia won la Liga because Real Madrid made an awful season... they lost an advantage of 9 points in ten matches...

by **GYBS** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 10:49 am

john craig wrote:
Bam wrote:Our stumbling block imo still appears when we're at home against the likes of Wigan and Stoke where we have the lions share of possesion, but dont always use it aswell as we could. The football we saw against Chelsea was perfect for that game, squeezing play and playing counter attacking football. Its just that when the onus is us more we do still seem to huff and puff our way to break teams down at times. I'll be interested to see how the lads fair up against Pompey on Wednesday as this will be a totally different game in comparrison to the one on Sunday against Chelsea.

It's a fair point.

As Sabre said though, Valencia under Rafa did draw a lot of games too. They were great at squeeziong teams as we did against Chelsea and at playing on the counter, perhaps they also had difficulty in breaking down 'lesser' teams when the onus was on them to attack. I can't confirm this either as I can't say I ever watched Benitez's Valencia against lower table Spanish sides, only in Europe and the odd game against the big Spanish teams, but perhaps that was the case.

I agree though, this is a potential weakness of this Liverpool side. We can't always find the answers when a team shuts up shop at Anfield. I do think we're slightly better at it this season though with the added width Riera gives and with the more open style we have been playing at home (with the full backs seemingly having licence o go forward at will). Agger will help with this as well as he tends to push up and give an extra option at times.

Your point about agger is spot on mate - him bringing the ball forward adds a new dimension totally and something we miss when we had skittle and carra there .

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:54 am

The team is certainly shaping up more and more like that Valencia side. The only difference is that we don't really have a Pablo Aimar. Ok Gerrard is playing in that position quite a lot but comparing Aimar to Gerrard is like comparing night and day. You could argue that Carra is our version of Roberto Ayala at the back, all be it with a bit more fuss about him. In central midfield, Mascherano and Alonso are better players than Albelda and Baraja in my opinion. The only slight negative is that I think Alonso should score more goals and if he gets 6-8 this season I'd be well happy.

by **GYBS** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:59 am

The thing with the valencia model is they had one big guy stuck up front with two attacking wide players - Vicente,Kily Gonzalez(even thou i think he might of left when rafa went there) Angulo (striker playing out right

) . so in some ways we are a bit like them with the two guys sitting in front of the back four (xabi,masher = baraja,albelda) and defensively but think attacking wise we are different to the valencia team of rafas.

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