Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:47 pm

If I understand well your first two paragraphs, you are saying that rotation (or rests for that matter), if any sense, it has sense when the muscular fatigue appears. So rests are more appropiate in March than in October where there is not muscular fatigue. No?

Well, that makes sense. And I hope at least Rafa does that so that we don't have the Arsenal effect.

Also a point that has mentioned LFC2K7 is important for me. I have less problems with Alonso being rotated because I know Mascherano will be the one to substitute him. Quality for quality, no problem (or not as much problem). It's not the same to rotate Gerrard for Lucas though, the result of that, unlike the first case, is a weaker team.

So I think one of the reasons that indeed has made change Rafa's mind is that in the left we have a consistant player for instance, and in the case of Keane, obviously a good player. When Rafa starts rotating a bit more (due to what Bigmick explains in the last posts) he'll rotate Alonso more happily than Gerrard I think, because the substitution is better.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:54 pm

What is "Rafa has seen the light " stuff mean ? . He has still rotated , he has still changed things week in week out - from the way we play to the way we line up . Rafa hasnt changed from what i can see - he just seems to be getting close to the team and squad he wants with better quality players to be brought in when players are needed to be rested/rotated. We are 9 prem games into the season and rafa will keep going to way he always has done and always will do - he will put out the 11 player he thinks will win the game - when he needs to freshen up things or protect players he will do just as he always has done and he will go out to make the players as fresh as he can in jan . As been said most of the reasons we are doing better this season is down to the players mentality towards the game and a never say no attitude that i think has been brought in by sammy . The players are getting a bit of luck but the self belief is there as well for them . They seem to of at last started to believe in there own abilities and they are able to compete with Chelsea and Man Utd . Two good wins has done that for them but lets not cloud everything - we still arent playing very well at the moment . It could go either way from now - the wheels could come off a bit and we cold struggle as players arent on top form or the players could suddenly click and find those extra gears . We are up there at the moment due to belief , a bit of luck , fighting towards the end and being more solid as a squad . The players are still being rotated and will be for the rest of the season . So far pretty much every single person in the first team squad has had time on the pitch . so changes are always being made. IMO.

by **JC_81** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:55 pm

Sabre wrote:Also a point that has mentioned LFC2K7 is important for me. I have less problems for Alonso to be rotated because I know Mascherano will be the one to substitute him. Quality for quality, no problem (or not as much problem). It's not the same to rotate Gerrard for Lucas though, the result of that, unlike the first case, is a weaker team.

This is a crucial point.

Rotation in general is fine if used properly - ie not mass rotation, not benching an in-form player, and if possible replacing quality with quality. We still don't have this in a lot of positions.

Dossena for Aurelio ok, Mascherano for Alonso ok, Benayoun/Babel in for Kuyt ok. We have 4 good centre backs but I'm not a fan of rotating the central defenders as I think it's the most important partnership on the pitch. Apart from those changes, we are significantly weakening the team by rotating, that's a fact. We still don't have the strength in depth that Chelsea and United do and therefore to be anywhere near them at the end of the season we need to be lucky with injuries and survive with minimal rotation.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:58 pm

Good post Sabes, sorry you were putting it together at the same time as mine. Don't worry about wanting to see proof before you admit you're wrong, we're all like that and besides you've been the first to hold your hands up before. Funnily enough, your actually ahead of the game on this one. Some posters aren't even admitting yet that we're rotating less or that there's been a modification of policy, so you've become something of a visionary on the whole subject.

I've actually always thought that fate would conspire to allow everyone to claim they were right all along in the end, and I have no doubt the same will happen here. I give you two scenarios, one of which will befall us this season and in both cases pro's and anti's will claim vindification.

Scenario 1. We do what's becoming known as an "Arsenal". This is the mythical "falling in a hole" scenario which befell them last season. Out of the blocks and playing great, only to run out of gas in the Home straight. "It's cos they didn't rotate enough" was the cry, and should we have a simialrly Devon Loch-esque (you'll have to google that one

) campaign, that'll be the cry. This one is actually my most likely scenario this season, I won't agree with the "it's because of lack of rotation" as I think we might just fall short due to an injurty to a key player or two and lack of subsequent squad depth.

Scenario 2. The golden ticket. Out of the blocks quickly, up there till Christmas before rafa expertly and deftly shuffles his pack from game to game with the result that we are eventually crowned Champions. Both sides would be able to claim they were right all along (at least those who could give a feck enough to argue about anything once we'd won the league could) and all would be good with the World. This is my predicted scenario for next season, once we've "built our base camp" this term.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:02 pm

Doesnt the lack of squad depth go alongside the rotating thou ? isnt that where man utd and chelsea have been ok with rotating cause they have a better squad overall so have beeter quality to come into the team wwhere as our quality isnt as good but we still have to bring them in to give our top players a rest .

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:03 pm

Sorry edited that. Look GFYS, given the way other debates have gone I'd rather not engage in any debate with you on any subject to be honest. This is the rotation thread so by all means come in here and voice your opinion, but I won't be answering any questions which you have of my stance, or giving any clarifications. There's 55 pages here and my stance has been pretty clear and constant throughout.

You go for your life and offer your opinions, but I won't make any comment on them such as they are.

Sometimes you just have to accept that you aren't going to get along, I think that's where we're at :cool:

Rotation is a complex and broad subject, good luck with it.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:06 pm

For me the whole rotating thing has been brought about by the press when they kept going on about rafa not playing the same team for 100 games i think it was so the press jumped on it - ignoring the fact that rafa made just as many changes to the team as both man utd and chelsea did - and i think it was less at some stages . And there was the whole business when Torres didnt start against Brum in the prem but did against wigan in the CC . But ask yourself a questio - when Rafa has brought players into the team (normally against the lower leve teams) - how many have ever though that the opposition man for man was better than what rafa put out ?

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:09 pm

Sorry you answered it before i edited it, my apologies. I refer you to my previous post.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:09 pm

Man for man, I don't think Hull have better players than Arsenal do...

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:11 pm

rafa has used 22 players in the prem and CL so far - add in another 4 in the cc = so that 26 players used by the end of october - is he still rotating ?

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:13 pm

GYBS wrote:rafa has used 22 players in the prem and CL so far - add in another 4 in the cc = so that 26 players used by the end of october - is he still rotating ?

If what you're saying is that the term rotation is used lazily - then yes I'd agree with you.

If you're saying that Rafa is making the same level of changes as he has in the past then I disagree - he's not and it's no coincidence that we look better for it.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:17 pm

So out of 11 players how many would you say should of started every game in just the prem if rafa isnt rotating much ? 8 ? 9 ?

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:17 pm

Look I'll try a second time GFYS. This is the rotation thread, it's an institution around here, it's been going this debate has for three seasons. You could do worse than read the whole thread from start to finsih, it would teach you many things about the history of the forum etc. It's a complex debate which has been contested by people who think about the game.

Now, you seem to be making the point that there hasn't been a reduction in rotation. Lovely, you've made your stance clear. I've got it. YOU DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN A REDUCTION IN ROTATION-RAFA STILL ROTATES. There, I've got it. Now equally, I do think there has been a reduction. But this argument is about three months old, people are trying to discuss stage ten of the debate while you are debating stage six. Please don't smother the thread with this, if you don't want top debate sensibly simply move on.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:19 pm

Note to any mods which are visiting-if this is not a blatant derailing of a thread and an attempt to spam it into oblivion, I've never seen it.

It's such a shame.

by **Jimmy the Weasel** » Mon Oct 27, 2008 9:19 pm

GYBS wrote:So out of 11 players how many would you say should of started every game in just the prem if rafa isnt rotating much ? 8 ? 9 ?

I don't really know what you're getting at here.

I think that when players are on form and gelling well, they should get a run of matches - certain things permitting such as minor injuries that cast doubt on availability.

There have been plenty of occasions in the past when we can't understand why a player is in one week and dropped the next - I can't say that this season.

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