What were you doing - The morning of 9/11

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Postby Emerald Red » Tue May 06, 2008 4:52 pm

The Manhattan Project wrote:I've got no problem with people having religion because it brings them comfort.

I only take issue with religious people when they do any of the following:

1- Try to mix their religion with government and law.
2- Try to use their religion to meddle with scientific advances.
3- Try to make their religious mythology on an equal par with scientific theories
4- Use their religion to justify government actions.
5- Try to impose their religion on those who do not share their beliefs.
6- Use their religion to justify acts of criminality and/or violence.

Well, all those stipulations can practically apply to anything other than in the name of a religion, but I agree.
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Postby GOAT » Tue May 06, 2008 4:58 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
GOAT wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Religion helps people in their own way. Some people can be going through a bad time and their religion can get them trough it.

Aye weak people who cant handle things themselves, wanting some crazy higher power to help them out lol

:no

lol i guess your one of them then

Im an aetheist, sue me, I dont want anything to do with that religion baloney
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Postby Big Niall » Tue May 06, 2008 5:12 pm

GOAT wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:
GOAT wrote:
Emerald Red wrote:Religion helps people in their own way. Some people can be going through a bad time and their religion can get them trough it.

Aye weak people who cant handle things themselves, wanting some crazy higher power to help them out lol

:no

lol i guess your one of them then

Im an aetheist, sue me, I dont want anything to do with that religion baloney

with a name like goat - I assumed you were pagan. :D
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Postby Big Niall » Tue May 06, 2008 5:17 pm

I don't doubt religion can be comforting, but I really don't understand how intelligent people (e.g. Newton) can believe something of which there is zero evidence just because the thought is comforting. I've loved people who died, it is sad, I mourned and then got on with  my life with their memory.

Friends and family should also be support groups.

I despise that the church's views on various scientific procedures (stem cells etc) are reported, why not ask for a carpenters union for their opinion, it is no less valid.
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Postby Emerald Red » Tue May 06, 2008 5:35 pm

Big Niall wrote:I don't doubt religion can be comforting, but I really don't understand how intelligent people (e.g. Newton) can believe something of which there is zero evidence just because the thought is comforting. I've loved people who died, it is sad, I mourned and then got on with  my life with their memory.

Friends and family should also be support groups.

I despise that the church's views on various scientific procedures (stem cells etc) are reported, why not ask for a carpenters union for their opinion, it is no less valid.

Einstein was also religious. I think it's more due to the fact that they believed that life simply doesn't end, but transcends to something else, such is the nature of anything energetic. It's scientific fact.

People will say that the belief in a God or anything supernatural is too outlandish to believe in. My answer to that is that just the fact that life exists in the way it does is strange and outlandish and can't be explained or proven.
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Postby Judge » Tue May 06, 2008 6:31 pm

Big Niall wrote:
Judge wrote:agreed niall.


however, the oil grab. Hussain made a mistake by lighting all of kuwaits oil terminals, thus burning off millions of gallons of oil. that was NOT our or the US' fault. So i say, that it is arguable that oil played a roll in a declaration of war, it wasnt the sole reason for it. Hussain needed to be removed, that is clear. And if it preserves oil reserves then that was a bonus for the world economy. Im sure you'll agree to that.

I do know you have anti-american thoughts niall, and thats your right, but i do feel the sole reason for intervention was to remove that despot and preserve Iraq's future for a valuable export in oil. It served world interest, and i think has kept oil prices rising alot slower than it would now, if hussain was still in place.

Mind you i aint happy at paying 117p per litre of diesel though

I am anti US foreign policy but not anti american really - I thought Clinton administration was great. More this Bush guy I despise. I'm going there on holiday in a few weeks (I went last year too) and find yanks friendly.

Totally disagree about the invasion though. I think Iraq was better with a horrible f*cker in charge but controling the country than having a civil war in which between 100,000 and a million (depending who you read) have been killed, the invasion is great propaganda for Al Queda too.

impossible to believe war had nothing to do with it as Hussein was no worse than many of the dictators in Africa and had nothing to do with 9/11 (Bin Laden hated him and vice versa)

The bible belt of America, the real right wing, gun toting, bible preaching part have a lot in common with the radical muslims.

having said that, i would estimate that america is made up of just about all nationalities of the world. i mean real americans are of the red type, and even they came from russia 50,000 year ago :D

in essence america see themselves as the world  :D

the only true american is the buffalo  :p
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Postby metalhead » Tue May 06, 2008 7:16 pm

Judge wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Relgion is a con used to get the superstitious to die for nothing but the gain of wealth by the powerful.

Thats not religion

Thats politics, humanity use religion as an excuse.

theres a fine line between politics and religion, whereas faith is totally seperate.


for thousands of years religion was politics, then there was a lull as the commoners tried to seperate that from religion by installing democratically elected governments, now the religion/politics thing is starting to emerge as one again.

if we look at recent conflicts, it is impossible to argue that religion isnt the fire behind war. In fact, its probably always been the case, just hidden very well.

the current war on terror is fuelled by fanatics bent on religious destruction.

wasn't Martin Luther proposed non-secular law to society at first?

What I see today is religion mixing with politics, which is absolutely wrong, and as you said it should be seperated.
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Postby Judge » Wed May 07, 2008 7:18 pm

metalhead wrote:
Judge wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Relgion is a con used to get the superstitious to die for nothing but the gain of wealth by the powerful.

Thats not religion

Thats politics, humanity use religion as an excuse.

theres a fine line between politics and religion, whereas faith is totally seperate.


for thousands of years religion was politics, then there was a lull as the commoners tried to seperate that from religion by installing democratically elected governments, now the religion/politics thing is starting to emerge as one again.

if we look at recent conflicts, it is impossible to argue that religion isnt the fire behind war. In fact, its probably always been the case, just hidden very well.

the current war on terror is fuelled by fanatics bent on religious destruction.

wasn't Martin Luther proposed non-secular law to society at first?

What I see today is religion mixing with politics, which is absolutely wrong, and as you said it should be seperated.

when i achieve world dominance, metalhead will die first, then i'll have his sisters in the morning  :p   :D
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Postby The Manhattan Project » Wed May 07, 2008 7:28 pm

Emerald Red wrote:
The Manhattan Project wrote:I've got no problem with people having religion because it brings them comfort.

I only take issue with religious people when they do any of the following:

1- Try to mix their religion with government and law.
2- Try to use their religion to meddle with scientific advances.
3- Try to make their religious mythology on an equal par with scientific theories
4- Use their religion to justify government actions.
5- Try to impose their religion on those who do not share their beliefs.
6- Use their religion to justify acts of criminality and/or violence.

Well, all those stipulations can practically apply to anything other than in the name of a religion, but I agree.

You're right.

"Favourite colour" could be used instead of religion.


But history has shown that religion is the most common application of ideological belief being used in a manner which causes damage.

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source transmission 421 general panic hysteria 02 outbreak
foreign mutation 001505 maximum code destruction nuclear
reflection 01044 power plutonium helix atomic energy wave
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Postby metalhead » Wed May 07, 2008 7:40 pm

Judge wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Judge wrote:
metalhead wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Relgion is a con used to get the superstitious to die for nothing but the gain of wealth by the powerful.

Thats not religion

Thats politics, humanity use religion as an excuse.

theres a fine line between politics and religion, whereas faith is totally seperate.


for thousands of years religion was politics, then there was a lull as the commoners tried to seperate that from religion by installing democratically elected governments, now the religion/politics thing is starting to emerge as one again.

if we look at recent conflicts, it is impossible to argue that religion isnt the fire behind war. In fact, its probably always been the case, just hidden very well.

the current war on terror is fuelled by fanatics bent on religious destruction.

wasn't Martin Luther proposed non-secular law to society at first?

What I see today is religion mixing with politics, which is absolutely wrong, and as you said it should be seperated.

when i achieve world dominance, metalhead will die first, then i'll have his sisters in the morning  :p   :D

Not unless i blow myself up first

:wwww  :D
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Postby Judge » Thu May 08, 2008 7:12 pm

that'll save me a job, but i'll still have your sisters, and your mum if she's still up for it :d
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Thu May 08, 2008 10:39 pm

I was off - getting ready to go the airport to go on holiday with my wife to Kos.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96

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Postby Woollyback » Thu May 08, 2008 10:46 pm

take a liverpool scarf to pin to the ceiling at point one bar in kardamena for me, mine's probably looking a bit shabby after 9 years
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Postby metalhead » Thu May 08, 2008 11:10 pm

Judge wrote:that'll save me a job, but i'll still have your sisters, and your mum if she's still up for it :d

not unless my sisters and mum blow themselves up when you take them :D
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Mon May 12, 2008 3:32 am

At the time I was working at the Press Association, which is a massive news agency in London. I saw on the BBC website about the first plane hitting, and at that point everyone in the office was talking fairly jovially as if it was just bellend glider-man floating in at no speed.

The section I worked on shared part of the floor with the finance division, who had a 14" portable telly in their area. Suddenly a few people started to mill around to watch, and after a few seconds there were gasps and various bleats ringing out from over there. Everyone - and we're talking about 50 people - gradually converged on this telly, and I don't think we moved for about an hour. During the time we were there watching the endless reruns of the first plan hitting, the second plane struck and suddenly the realisation dawned on everybody.

The unnerving thing about it all was these poor guys in finance, who actually knew a lot of people that were working in the World Trade Center - many of them were in day-to-day contact and they treated one another as colleagues. There was one guy sitting not 3 metres away from me who had been emailing to-and-fro with someone in the first tower about a story, and suddenly the correspondence went completely dead. It was over a month later that he found out he'd been one of the lucky ones.

Rest of the time at work was all a bit of a daze. I got work done, but the atmosphere in the office was just horrible. Now we knew it was a terrorist attack, and it started to emerge that all news outlets in London were being viewed as potential targets. There was talk of us being evacuated and sent home, but then we heard that Canary Wharf had been evacuated, and management were renting out every spare desk we had to all of the news outlets that were suddenly temporarily homeless. Our building was just your common or garden 7 floor office in amongst dozens of other such structures, and a pilot would have to be like one of your Red Bull Air Race guys to get even close to colliding with it, so our minds collectively raced about what other imaginative ways terrorists could use to get at us. To add to it all, police vans appeared on our road outside the offices, never knew why exactly, but it seemed fairly plain that they were there for our protection.

Our floor wasn't too badly overrun with Canary Wharf folk, but the floors above and below were absolute pandemonium. Hacks aren't the most pleasant people at the best of times, but with so many theories and so few facts, not to mention that there were now rival publications sitting side-by-side, it just descended into f*cking noise.

I remember that I left the office early that day, which was a first. The real oddity for me was that I'd treated my then-girlf, now-wife to tickets to see Stereophonics at some special Q Magazine thing at The Scala taking place that night.

So, in spite of all the stress of the day, now when people ask me about 9/11, I just say it was awful, horrible, gut-wrenching... Kelly Jones' voice just knocks me sick.

Sidenote to the story is that we had tickets to Eurodisney on Sept 14th, which was initially worrying, but actually worked out very well. If we hadn't flown so soon afterwards, I think we'd have put off flying for months if not years to come.

Horrible day. Eddie Izzard has it right though - it shouldn't be named after the 9th of November.
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