Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:01 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Sabre wrote:I have something to say in defence of Bigmick because I'm reading certain comments in different threads from a while ago. Until one year ago or something I agreed 90% of what he said. As of late, since the most popular topics of discussions are matters in which I disagree with him, I disagree more often.

But in agreement or disagreement, he's an excellent poster. Never drags a discussion forever, and if there's a fight he settles down it inmediatly. His attitude as a poster deserves all the respect, he's a credit for this forum.

FFS do not comment about the lenght of his posts. We complain about text speak, we complain about lazy copy and pasting, and then there's a poster who bothers to explain his point in a good english, and takes the time for it, and instead of being grateful we make jokes about it. At the end we'll make him post less and that will be bad for the forum. I saw a similar case in Red37's case and it really píssed me off when he started to post much less.

It's unfair Bigmick receives comments like that, especially if we consider many of his posts are proper answers when he's quoted or rebated an opinion. Again, he bothers to answer in good manners and we should appreciate it.

Nobody should expect to be read by others carefully -- I don't, there are too many posters to read. But nobody asks you to read what you find boring. There's not a rule about boring posts, quite simply because if you find something boring then you simply can skip it or ignore it. Let's respect a bit the posters that take care of their posts and are respectful with the rules, even if we disagree wholeheartedly (as I do about Rafa and rotation).

No need to get all serious Sabre the Mick posts are in jest and there is no malice involved, spaniard!

by **stmichael** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:04 pm

bigmick wrote:I did notice Taffs point Bob and actually somebody else raised it earlier, the "so you are saying the Premiership is harder to win then" and of course I am. You can't have it both ways in any argument, it's as sure as night follows day that if English teams are dominant in Europe (which they are) then the Premiership is hard to win. Trying to have it both ways in an argument is daft and it's exasperating when you come up against it. It's like saying "it's nothing to do with rotation" when we are misfiring left right and centre in the early part of the season, and then saying "it's because of a lack of rotation" when Arsenal fail by ten minutes or so to put us out of the champions league. Nothing to do with being fractionally unlucky with a couple of penalty decisons, nothing to do with one of their own blokes clearing it off the line for us, it's all down to rotation innit? I argued with people until i was blue in the face earlier in the season, many of them saying that mass rotation doesn't have any effect on fluency whatsoever, none, nada Needless to say those same people are now all over the Arsenal example I bet Wengers gutted, he could have done it the same as us and been out of it by Christmas if he'd played his cards right, would've saved him getting his hopes up anyway.

Seriously though (and I am only jesting) on the question of the Premiership it's hard to win as there are three excellent teams in it apart from us. One of the things which grates though, is not that we haven't actually won it during rafa's reign, its that we have never, ever, not for a nanosecond even challenged for it. The other thing that grates of course is that we have absolutely no excuse whatsover to be scrapping with the likes of Everton, Villa and Portsmouth fopr fourth place. Given our superiority to those teams, we should be over the horizon and visible only with binoculars long before the run in.

Watching Premier League and Champions League games you would think that the two competitions have two completely different sets of rules at times, both are very different because the interpretation of the rules is set by different governing bodies to facilitate the brand of football being played that they believe gives them the highest ratings, it's all about product.

Given that in International competition all teams have to conform to Champions League refereeing standards and interpretations as opposed to Premiership refereeing is it really any wonder the English national side continually struggle?

The main problem for me though is that the media view and support United’s extremely direct and unique style of play as the perfect advertisement for “their product”, but for me United simply don’t play the same type of football as Liverpool are beginning to play more consistently and Arsenal have for some time. Their style of play simply doesn’t and never will translate into consistent results in European or World football. They love the old adage that “the table doesn’t lie” and results don’t lie either, a potential 2nd Champions league final in 16 seasons with the array of top class internationals they have had at their disposal tells it’s own story.

For me United don't play the possession based pass and move attacking game that too many give them credit for, they play a very direct style made up of an enormous collection of rehearesed set plays whether they are from open play, attacking set pieces or defending the oppositons set pieces, a real percentage game which they do successfully simply because they have bought some of the World's best players and drilled them thoroughly to repeat these percentage set plays with the accuracy you would expect time and time again, or in some cases just once throughout games. In games against the top sides in the league they try to disrupt the play are extremely over physical in their approach and too much is "let go" by the officials.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:11 pm

Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
BTW, I actually like Arbeloa but don't think he's quite as amazing as some have made out. Conversely, I don't "adore" Aurelio--I just know he's not as rubbish as some contend

You know alot Bob, so instead of sitting on the fence and listening to what others think, and considerring you "know" this and that tell us what you think of Arbeloa and Aurelio oh magnificent one.

Ok Bamaga, enough of -licking and peace, now one of this statements that wind you up big time and I've restrained a bit as of late:

If at some point of the season you've thought that Arbeloa is a better player than Aurelio (and I know you have), then you really should start watching ice hockey or any other sport.

Arbeloa is a decent-good player that has been performing very well, giving his best constantly, and for that he has to be creditted. Aurelio is a far better player, who was performed less constantly especially due to injuries.

If you have doubts about it, look who'll play Rafa in the remaining real important matches of this season, like in the semifinals or the finals we reach. That doesn't mean Arbeloa has done something wrong, nor that he doesn't train well, it means the better player once recovered his best form, is first in the pecking order of the team. In fact, Rafa did explain this diplomatically when Arbeloa was the only player that wasn't rotated at the start of the season. He wasn't rotated because he was doing well, but also because the best option for the position was not fit.

Especifically, Arbeloa can't dream to have a touch of the ball Aurelio has, there are less left footed than right footed, so left footed quality players are appreciated in top leagues. Aurelio is one. He's not only able to pass accurately, but also apply a lot of strengh to the ball. Without the ball, Aurelio is not the best, but he's not inferior to Arbeloa in that aspect neither.

Aurelio hasn't been spot on in the free kicks like he was in Spain, to be honest, but I suspect that if he had been, he would have been much more appreciated than he has. A definitely good enough LB for this calibre of club.

It doesnt wind me up Sabes.

Question: Who would you rather have in your team, a good defender who is never injuried, can fill in at RB or LB comfortbaly and puts in adequate and consistent performances.

Or

A player who technically is better (like Kewell though is injured alot) and when he has played hasnt been as solid as Arbeloa defensively, without the ball ?

No choice for me.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:15 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
BTW, I actually like Arbeloa but don't think he's quite as amazing as some have made out. Conversely, I don't "adore" Aurelio--I just know he's not as rubbish as some contend

You know alot Bob, so instead of sitting on the fence and listening to what others think, and considerring you "know" this and that tell us what you think of Arbeloa and Aurelio oh magnificent one.

You're not worthy.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:16 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
BTW, I actually like Arbeloa but don't think he's quite as amazing as some have made out. Conversely, I don't "adore" Aurelio--I just know he's not as rubbish as some contend

You know alot Bob, so instead of sitting on the fence and listening to what others think, and considerring you "know" this and that tell us what you think of Arbeloa and Aurelio oh magnificent one.

You're not worthy.

Exactly, you talk the talk. But thats about it.

by **Sabre** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:18 pm

(Didn't mean to wind up really) I preffer the former aswell, as I preffer Babel to the constantly injured Kewell.

But I think that Aurelio's bad luck with injuries won't last forever, I don't recall him being injury prone before this (admittedly) long patch of bad luck.

That said, Arbeloa probably deserved much of the credit he got, he's really given what we can expect from him, and he's been constant and regular. But I don't see him becoming a top player, just an accomplished one that we can count and we need to count on during a long season with lots of matches. Good player for rotation, you use him after 5 games, and he's able to perform well, he's very regular

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:18 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Sabre wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
BTW, I actually like Arbeloa but don't think he's quite as amazing as some have made out. Conversely, I don't "adore" Aurelio--I just know he's not as rubbish as some contend

You know alot Bob, so instead of sitting on the fence and listening to what others think, and considerring you "know" this and that tell us what you think of Arbeloa and Aurelio oh magnificent one.

Ok Bamaga, enough of -licking and peace, now one of this statements that wind you up big time and I've restrained a bit as of late:

If at some point of the season you've thought that Arbeloa is a better player than Aurelio (and I know you have), then you really should start watching ice hockey or any other sport.

Arbeloa is a decent-good player that has been performing very well, giving his best constantly, and for that he has to be creditted. Aurelio is a far better player, who was performed less constantly especially due to injuries.

If you have doubts about it, look who'll play Rafa in the remaining real important matches of this season, like in the semifinals or the finals we reach. That doesn't mean Arbeloa has done something wrong, nor that he doesn't train well, it means the better player once recovered his best form, is first in the pecking order of the team. In fact, Rafa did explain this diplomatically when Arbeloa was the only player that wasn't rotated at the start of the season. He wasn't rotated because he was doing well, but also because the best option for the position was not fit.

Especifically, Arbeloa can't dream to have a touch of the ball Aurelio has, there are less left footed than right footed, so left footed quality players are appreciated in top leagues. Aurelio is one. He's not only able to pass accurately, but also apply a lot of strengh to the ball. Without the ball, Aurelio is not the best, but he's not inferior to Arbeloa in that aspect neither.

Aurelio hasn't been spot on in the free kicks like he was in Spain, to be honest, but I suspect that if he had been, he would have been much more appreciated than he has. A definitely good enough LB for this calibre of club.

It doesnt wind me up Sabes.

Question: Who would you rather have in your team, a good defender who is never injuried, can fill in at RB or LB comfortbaly and puts in adequate and consistent performances.

Or

A player who technically is better (like Kewell though is injured alot) and when he has played hasnt been as solid as Arbeloa defensively, without the ball ?

No choice for me.

You are both wrong - Riise (when on form) is better than the pair of them. All he needs is to get his confidence back by knocking a couple in against Chelsea.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:23 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
BTW, I actually like Arbeloa but don't think he's quite as amazing as some have made out. Conversely, I don't "adore" Aurelio--I just know he's not as rubbish as some contend

You know alot Bob, so instead of sitting on the fence and listening to what others think, and considerring you "know" this and that tell us what you think of Arbeloa and Aurelio oh magnificent one.

You're not worthy.

Exactly, you talk the talk. But thats about it.

What Sabre said.

by **Judge** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:10 pm

how big is the fence?

by **taff** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:48 pm

Bigmick is so great Ive now decided to agree with him

I had a pint with Jonnymac before the stones concert in Cardiff and we both agreed that we reckon Bigmick looks like Rafa cos of his avatar and intelligent ways.

But at leat we have a topic where we can debate and agree/disagree without it descending into petty arguments whatever your opinion on the team, manager, price of pasties in Greggs.

Anyway Im off out now so feck off Bigmick your wrong :rasp

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:15 pm

from our progression under rafa...to the bigmick fan club.

by **redtrader74** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:27 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
One thing we definatly lack in comparison to our rivals in the EPL, and especially the two who have always finished above us during Rafas reign is assertiveness. We do not bully our opponents or the referee and rarely manipulate the press. I know we hate the jibes of fergie putting pressure on the referees via the press, and winding up rival managers, and the way Terry, Ferdinand et al pressurise officials, but they have taken advantage and been allowed to while we on the whole play a little more fairly, which has and will cost us whilst they are allowed to get away with it.

Oh come on Redtrader, I'd of thought you'd have more balls to atleast nearly get our problems right in the league. FFS manipulating the press, or the referee ........... Kinell I've heard it all now It amazes me how the same old people on here turn around and blame EVERYTHING apart from the obvious, the mind boggles.

I've heard them all now, injuries, Manipulting the press (sorry but I just cannot stop at that one) bulley the referee (Did our past legends "bulley" refs ?) No of course they didnt they won by playing football. The other excuse that still has me chuckling is 'our fixture list is too hard WTF ?)

Alot of you need to pull your head out of the sand, otherwise you'll be making these excuses for the forseable future and lose sight on the game of football itself. Thats where its going wrong on the field nowhere else, dont start clutching at straws to find a sorry excuse, its cringe worthy.

I dont dislike Rafa, and by reading the stats on the first page our progress if atall has been slow but steady ?

Well even thats debatable, like I said before it seems more viable to qualify for the CL these days than it does to win a title. As long as Rafa qualifies us each year into the CL it seems his job is safe, if he went gung ho for the league and got knocked out of the CL (early stages) people would be questioning the security of his job. Ala Reading 3 Liverpool 1, then a few days later we beat Marseille in the CL. At this time there was alot of talk and thats all it was that if he failed to overcome Marseille those two idi.ots would have him sacked. So what did he do in the Reading game, hauled Torres and Gerrard off, an obvious sign of submission in a result to save them for the Marseille game. Also playing Crouch wide left wasnt exactly a mastermind move.

That one instance alone proves that there is a certain prioritising going on, even Rafa admitted a couple of months ago. Straight from the horses mouth, he said more or less that if your out of one competition you tend to focus on the other one, the one you have more chance of winning. And that seems to happen EVERY October/November when we've ALREADY blown our chances in the league because of our mentality towards our domestic opponents, we focus on the CL.

Clear as mud, and like Mick said either Rafa is trying to win the league but is having zero success in it, which ponders a thought or two, namely from the 'Rafa cannot be critised camp' it will be 'we dont manipulate the press' or 'its the refs fault' or 'ManU have more money than us, so we can just roll over and not expect a title challenege', you know the same old weak @rse excuses week in week out.
Or you can take would I would call a realistic view, which is ....instead of pointing the blame everywhere else bar the team and manager, I'd do the obvious and query to myself why is it not happening for us.

Manipulating the press ....... V ..... Poor team performances

ManU&Chelsea have more money..V.. Needless rotation and poor team selection.

The ref, sky and the whole wold is against us .. V... Winning mentality.

It took Fergie seven years .... V ..... Signing the right players

H&G ......... V ........... Heads down @rses up in training, woking hard

F.uckin hell people, where do our probems lie ^^ Left or right hand side above ? I definately know Sabre, Redtrader, LFC2007, Bob and a few others cough up the Left hand side excuses, and for me you all need a reality check on the game of football itself. All four of them are very good posters, and I like to read theit thoughts at the end of every match, they write some good stuff. But for good writers like that to post away excuses after excuses (apart from game thoughts) is a waste of good writing Put your academic, well thought out posts to the route of the problem fellas, it ould be much more interesting to read.

Mick also said something like Rafa isnt having success in the league because he isnt focusing on the league.

So either he is focusing on the league and coming up short all the time, or he isnt focusing on the league. Whatever the case maybe, and it can ONLY be from those two options, Rafa especially and the players arent getting something right.

FFS get a grip and read what i have actually written if you are going to quote, I have not blamed our failure on the points I put across, it was merely an observation on what I see when I watch the game, especially when I see it live, the lack of vocal players being one of the things you might miss on an internet stream. NOT FOR A SECOND HAVE I SAID THESE ARE THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE NOT WON THE LEAGUE UNDER RAFA, MERELY THAT THEY ARE THINGS THE TWO TEAMS WHO CONSISTENTLY FINISH ABOVE US DO, AND IT COULD HELP.

In fact I have spoon fed you another reason to blame Rafa, quite easily you could say the team is a reflection of the man, and its his demeanor and instructions that are being reflected on the pitch and HE is to blame for the team not asserting themselves, and its Rafa who doesn't pressurise the refs.

'Did our past legends bully refs?' Yeah they did IMO and in my recollection, sincerely I have know idea how long you've actually watched Liverpool play, but they took advantage of their position and status of being LFC players every week and influenced referees, and intimidated the opponents. There was a swagger and OK that is enhanced by winning trophies, but IMO there is a lack strong leaders in our side, again you could blame Rafa for that.

Look you and many others believe that if we didn't rotate that we'd be challenging for the title, ITS POSSIBLE (see i said it), but i don't believe it to be the OVERWHELMING reason we don't, the reasons are many and too tedious for now, i'm not Mick!!!, and we've been down that road many a time. I can see many other factors playing a part in it, and posters like your goodself choose to dismiss any other reason completely out of hand.

Just for starters, (Ignoring your long term stance on Rafa, and being objective) do you really believe the goings on this season have not affected how Rafa has performed, and the players? Is there the merest of possibilities that a negative impact has taken place and may have cost us some points? We don't have to believe the rumours, the quotes are there for all to read from Rafa, Moores and Parry.

'Rafa says that if you are out of one competition then it makes sense to focus on the other'........and?? so??? How the hell does that interpret into Rafa prioritising the CL above the League. Lets say we had one more group game to play in the CL, winning it would make no difference to our finishing position, (say we have no chance of qualifying) he'd probably rotate and play his stronger players in the forthcoming league game (which we could still win), now would that mean he doesn't care about the CL? Of course not and to think that or the opposite is ludicrous.

There is a massive misunderstanding, or a deliberate misrepresentation of those who choose to support the manager, and that is that we see no faults in the manager, and that we cannot criticise him, well its utter bollox, many times i have not agreed with formational changes, or players being played out of position, Crouch on the left baffles me to this day, and i'm still not a fan of SG playing support striker even if it is working right now to some extent, occassionally I will give Rafa the benefit of doubt, him being a top class manager and all, and at other times I will say 'what the fck is that' and having read posts of my fellow 'happy clappers' i'd say they have done exactly the same. Rafa is not beyond criticism, but I prefer not criticise for the sake of it, however clever it might make me look. I would rather take each circumstance on its merits and reply accordingly, and not post my thoughts whilst trying to ensure I keep the status quo of my previous stance in the forum.

Rotation is not the same as formational changes, is not the same positional changes, is not the same as buying the wrong players, lumping them all together is lazy, interpret that they are all mistakes by Rafa by all means, but individually, banging on about them under the banner of the 'Rafa style' cr@p does you a disservice.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:53 pm

FFS get a grip, i have not blamed our failure on the points I put across, it was merely an observation on what I see when I watch the game, especially when I see it live, the lack of vocal players being one of the things you might miss on an internet stream. NOT FOR A SECOND HAVE I SAID THESE ARE THE REASONS WHY WE HAVE NOT WON THE LEAGUE UNDER RAFA, MERELY THAT THEY ARE THINGS THE TWO TEAMS WHO CONSISTENTLY FINISH ABOVE US DO, AND IT MAY HELP.

What about manipulating the press though :laugh:

Red, the talking is don on the pitch, not in a conference room to a journo or two. Your just scratching around for lame excuses, but thats your perogative.

In fact I have spoon fed you another reason to blame Rafa, quite easily you could say the team is a reflection of the man, and its his demeanor and instructions that are being reflected on the pitch and he IS to blame for the team not asserting themselves, and its Rafa who doesn't pressurise the refs.

The demeanor of the team and instructions are fine, thats you whose blaming Rafa not me. We're a well set up team that pressurise our opponents, maybe a little cautious at times but its not a bad demeanor.

'Did our past legends bully refs?' yeah they did, sincerely i have know idea how long you've actually watched Liverpool play, but they took advantage of their position and status of being LFC players every week and influenced referees, and intimidated the opponents. There was a swagger and OK that is enhanced by winning trophies, but IMO there is a lack strong leaders in our side, again you could blame Rafa for that.

I've watched them long enough Red thank you. Yes obviously they bulleyed their opponents that goes without saying FFS ! The refs, well I dont recollect us "bulleying them into decisions. We largeley won in those days because of our FOOTBALL, none of this manipulating the press c.rap and whatever excuses ou can fathom to churn out.

by **redtrader74** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:07 pm

Nothing wrong with manipulating the press, getting them onside, having a few hacks as friends would relieve the pressure at times when we go through a tough period, and would also assist in showing the Club in a positive light, its not a Sunday League, its a multimillion pound business, and it would be foolish to not ensure you have an influence in all departments.
Obviously you find it difficult accept the complexity that goes with running a football team, or can't be bothered to think outside of a tabloid headline and want to lay the blame only on Rafa and his rotation, which is fair enough, thats your prerogative, but you'd do better in replying to the football questions i posed, if possible.

As i said, I am not explaining our lack of a Premier league title on the points I made, merely that I believe it is a weakness in my team, addressing them might help, is that clear enough?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Fri Apr 18, 2008 11:28 pm

redtrader, I don't like this idea of "bullying" officials. The press side doesn't bother me because they have no impact on the football pitch. The press can't decide to send you off, or come on and score a hattrick. But your point(s) about officials for me isn't going to help us any better. Chelsea do it, and what happens? Matters turn out worse for them down to the FA or in the end red cards. Ashley Cole would of been sent off by a ref with any bollox against Spurs, but I don't think Chelsea get any benifits from bullying officials as you put it. United under the leadership of Roy Keane were much worse than they are now, but again they were constantly in trouble because of this bullying tactic.

People are bemoaning the fact that Hicks is lowering the good name of Liverpool Football Club, well so would going up to a ref in a mob with steam coming out of our ears on a regular basis. I don't think there's need to bully officials. I think we could "lean" on them a little more, a bit like United do now, but I don't want to see us carry on like Chelsea. Arsenal are worse than United at it IMO and they haven't always finished above us. I think we need to sort out many things before we start looking at how we respond towards the officials.

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