Liverpool FC Forum

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:10 pm

dawson99 wrote:im not saying he doesnt want to win it (well i am, but not what i meant) but he seems to want to keep people fresh for the end of the season too much for the cups and it always ends up that by november we are already out of it and scrapping for 4th with teams like neverton. we are better than that. we need to focus on the league more, thats all i think

Well, mate, I think Arsenal has just demonstrated that not resting players means that they are neither fresh for the cups nor fresh for the league. Anyway, Rafa has said many times that rotation is designed to keep players fresh for the tail end of the season in all competitions.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:13 pm

dawson99 wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
dawson99 wrote:im not saying he doesnt want to win it (well i am, but not what i meant) but he seems to want to keep people fresh for the end of the season too much for the cups and it always ends up that by november we are already out of it and scrapping for 4th with teams like neverton. we are better than that. we need to focus on the league more, thats all i think

Unfortunatly we can't afford to put all our eggs in one basket, the situation being such that the debts on the Club need paying, and the difference between finishing fourth or first in the prem is a matter of a couple of months of SG's pay, yet getting to the latter stages of Europe is what would pay for another Torres. The pressure to succeed in the CL i guess is massive right now from the board, infact rumours ( i know i shouldn't ) suggested that had we not got past Marseille, Rafa was out. Rafa just has to do well in Europe each year to get that extra money, IMO he'd be nearer the exit door if he finished 2nd in the league and was knocked out the CL early, than the current position.

what would u prefer tho? CL semis or second in league pushing for 1st?
and wed have money if we stopepd buying so many fecking mediocre players. why spend whatever on bellamy pennant and kuyt when we could lump the lot on villa or someone class

Its easy to go back and point at individual signing which may or may not have worked out, But at the time we needed more than one player, there is no guarentee that Villa would have worked either, and to lump on him, if allowed by the board at the time, would have been foolish if we needed 3-4 players. Btw the season during the buys you mention nearly worked, those players helped to get us to another CL final, it may have even played a part in Torres' and Mascherano's descision to join us.

I don't think it has to be a choice between a semi and 2nd (both are still unsucessful) i'm just trying to explain why our manager may not be allowed to focus solely on the League, and that the circumstances at the Club dictate that a certain level of attainment in the CL is required each year.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:42 pm

The Premiership and the European Cup are two COMPLETELY different competitions. They don't overlap in success or failure. If you fail in the league, doesn't mean you fail in europe, example Liverpool. If you succeed in the league doesn't mean you succeed in europe, example Chelsea. So it's not a question of "which one would you prefer" I want the league, there's no denying that, but would I swap a european cup for the league? No. Would I swap a league title for the european cup? No. They are two different competitions that have to be treated with the same respect and desire to win.

For me it's not impossible to fight on both fronts. I don't blame the squad, because for the biggest games in the league, it's pretty much the same 11 who go out and play in europe's biggest games as well. I do believe that Benitez sacrifices the league for success in europe, because the only season where we've been within single figures behind the champions is the same season we went out of europe at the last 16 stage. Had we progressed in europe would we of been 9 points behind? I don't believe it, but that's obviously impossible to tell. I think the league is second on Benitez' wish list.

by **taff** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:58 pm

So us Rafa supporters are happy clappers etc etc, well some of the criticism is bordering on insane.

He doesnt care about the league, even though its his job to win the thing, whether he got things wrong this season is a valid debate but doesnt care. If anyone thinks that then I dont know how to have a debate with you anymore, topics just descend into this and the nitpicking of large replies, the quoting of persdonal points and insults. Well quote this - feck off I believe in the guy

Its now easy to get to the later stages of the CL. Ok to answer this one, since the arrival of Roman and the ante getting raised who are the British teams to have actually won this easy predictable competition. There is a rise in dominance of PL teams in the later stages, could this be an indication of the stark rise in quality of the league, hence harder to win the thing, or as some have suggested that its easy to get to the final stages as the rest of Europe arent up to it and Rafa should be winning this league as its only against three of the best teams in Europe, hang on Im confused, what argument works here. The PL has three top teams to compete against and Europe is easy although none of them have won it apart from us lately, so surely we should win the league.

Now Im losing track myself so to summarise

Progress, yes we have made progress but we are up against tough competition. Rafa will rotate next season so get used to it and if you dont like it then start a topic asking for him to be sacked as I cannot see him changing.

But one silver lining for the anti Rafa lot is he probably wont be here next season anyway but not to worry as its easy to get to the later stages in the CL and finishing fourth, might as well get Laurel and Hardy for a couple of seasons until we can find a manager that can win the CL and build us a team capable of competing without the money of Man Utd and Chelsea or the patience of Arsenal

by **Rush Job** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:08 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The Premiership and the European Cup are two COMPLETELY different competitions. They don't overlap in success or failure. If you fail in the league, doesn't mean you fail in europe, example Liverpool. If you succeed in the league doesn't mean you succeed in europe, example Chelsea. So it's not a question of "which one would you prefer" I want the league, there's no denying that, but would I swap a european cup for the league? No. Would I swap a league title for the european cup? No. They are two different competitions that have to be treated with the same respect and desire to win.

For me it's not impossible to fight on both fronts. I don't blame the squad, because for the biggest games in the league, it's pretty much the same 11 who go out and play in europe's biggest games as well. I do believe that Benitez sacrifices the league for success in europe, because the only season where we've been within single figures behind the champions is the same season we went out of europe at the last 16 stage. Had we progressed in europe would we of been 9 points behind? I don't believe it, but that's obviously impossible to tell. I think the league is second on Benitez' wish list.

I agree with most of what you say but there are a few reasons why we have done a bit better in europe than the league like tactics playing a bigger part than individuals and the fact that a good team can do well in a cup but to win the league you need a strong and competitive squad. I dont think it has anything to do with a "wish list".

by **Rush Job** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:11 pm

taff wrote:So us Rafa supporters are happy clappers etc etc, well some of the criticism is bordering on insane.

He doesnt care about the league, even though its his job to win the thing, whether he got things wrong this season is a valid debate but doesnt care. If anyone thinks that then I dont know how to have a debate with you anymore, topics just descend into this and the nitpicking of large replies, the quoting of persdonal points and insults. Well quote this - feck off I believe in the guy

Its now easy to get to the later stages of the CL. Ok to answer this one, since the arrival of Roman and the ante getting raised who are the British teams to have actually won this easy predictable competition. There is a rise in dominance of PL teams in the later stages, could this be an indication of the stark rise in quality of the league, hence harder to win the thing, or as some have suggested that its easy to get to the final stages as the rest of Europe arent up to it and Rafa should be winning this league as its only against three of the best teams in Europe, hang on Im confused, what argument works here. The PL has three top teams to compete against and Europe is easy although none of them have won it apart from us lately, so surely we should win the league.

Now Im losing track myself so to summarise

Progress, yes we have made progress but we are up against tough competition. Rafa will rotate next season so get used to it and if you dont like it then start a topic asking for him to be sacked as I cannot see him changing.

But one silver lining for the anti Rafa lot is he probably wont be here next season anyway but not to worry as its easy to get to the later stages in the CL and finishing fourth, might as well get Laurel and Hardy for a couple of seasons until we can find a manager that can win the CL and build us a team capable of competing without the money of Man Utd and Chelsea or the patience of Arsenal

Too true.

by **metalhead** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:13 pm

I think the reason we had done so well in europe, because the champions league doesn't require any consistancy like in the premiership. You don't play the champions league every week, hence you don't need to be consistant and its easy for the manager to set up his tactic against other european teams. In the league however, it requires consistancy in tactics and lineup, hence we aren't consistant in the league either of Rafa's tactics or because we don't have enough quality players to challenge. I'll pick the latter part, I think we are short of 3 or 4 quality players in different positions to become more consistant in the league.

as for our progress with Rafa, well I think we have progressed massively in europe with him, in the league we havn't proggressed as much as we hoped, but I think we did in terms of points total, if we beat fulham this saturday, then our total will be 69 which is 1 more point of what we finished last season. Plus we can close the gap with first place this season, if we end up winning the remaining games (which we could).

by **hishhish** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:19 pm

you guys have realy touched many greaet points, i would agree with those that give Rafa the benefit of a couple of more seasons, since he obviously has the potential. although it saddens me that the power struggle at the top usually affects lower management much more than the owners and execs.

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:22 pm

If anyone struggles to understand my Spanglish, Taff pretty much put my views in a better english, my views are Taff-esques

As always in the life, when you have something great you don't really appreciate when you have it. English teams reach with ease to the latter stages of the C.L., we win it for fifth time, and suddenly it's seen as an easy competition, so it shouldn't be taken too much in consideration as extenuating circumstance when we judge Rafa's deeds in Liverpool F.C. Understandable reasoning, but I disagree.

As I say, it's common to think that kind of thing from the winner perspective, but it's not accurate to diminish one iota the difficulty of winning the Champions League.

If you remove from the equation two really succesful and big clubs in Europe, Like Real Madrid with their 9 cups, and Liverpool, with 5 cups, the fact is that cup is a rare and coveted one for every one of the top English and Spanish clubs.

Fact: In this easy competition, you should go as far as 1999 or something to find another English Champion. And if you remove Liverpool from the equation, the next english champion Notts Forest or Man U were times in I wasn't born.

Fact: After winning the really important premiership twice, the Chelsea board didn't have much patience with Super Mourinho, did they?, they spent big time. They spent to get what we won 5 times, they failed.

So I don't know which will get bigger headlines in the english press, should Manchester wins the league again and Liverpool wins their sixth. But I can tell for what I read and see that competition is well coveted by our biggest english rivals. And that's of course because winning it is fúcking difficult. No team that isn't a really top team would win it.

And at times, and our best, we're a superb team. We just have to translate that form on a weekly basis. We need to get spot on with the signings, no more promising players or options but realities, and do it. Football is no different, if you're good in Europe is because you're good.

by **dawson99** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:24 pm

i dont want rafa to go. i just want us to do against teams like wigan what we can do aganist teams like milan... its madness. seeing our players gutted at coming off the pitch in the league... i just want the premiership or even a sniff at it after xmas. its not madness and i dont think im asking too much.

i might go over the top and say he doesnt care about the league, but i dnot think he understands how important it is to us, or he didnt but he does now. we CAN win the league, we ahve the team and the players to beat anyone on our day and if we hadnt drawn so many games wed be right amongst it. we need one or two players sure, but we need amanager who will take the league by the horns from the get go.

by **account deleted by request** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:25 pm

Rush Job wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:The Premiership and the European Cup are two COMPLETELY different competitions. They don't overlap in success or failure. If you fail in the league, doesn't mean you fail in europe, example Liverpool. If you succeed in the league doesn't mean you succeed in europe, example Chelsea. So it's not a question of "which one would you prefer" I want the league, there's no denying that, but would I swap a european cup for the league? No. Would I swap a league title for the european cup? No. They are two different competitions that have to be treated with the same respect and desire to win.

For me it's not impossible to fight on both fronts. I don't blame the squad, because for the biggest games in the league, it's pretty much the same 11 who go out and play in europe's biggest games as well. I do believe that Benitez sacrifices the league for success in europe, because the only season where we've been within single figures behind the champions is the same season we went out of europe at the last 16 stage. Had we progressed in europe would we of been 9 points behind? I don't believe it, but that's obviously impossible to tell. I think the league is second on Benitez' wish list.

I agree with most of what you say but there are a few reasons why we have done a bit better in europe than the league like tactics playing a bigger part than individuals and the fact that a good team can do well in a cup but to win the league you need a strong and competitive squad. I dont think it has anything to do with a "wish list".

I agree with what you say Rushie, but there must be a little more to it than that mate. Under Rafa we have played Chelsea 4 times in cup competitions , won three and lost one. We have played the mancs once and won, and Arsenal we have the worst record probably due to having played them at earlier stages and won one lost two.

Considering our league results against our rivals have been so poor its strange to me that our cup record is so much better against our Prem rivals. Its not as if Rafa plays a weaker team against them in the league but not in the cups.

by **Reg** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:02 pm

My only comment is that with 3 english sides in the last 4 and having knocked out Arsenal in the last round, the 3 other premiership teams seem better able to combine a Domestic and CL campaign than we are. Why is that?

by **crazyhorse** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:42 pm

Squad depth, simple as.

by **taff** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:43 pm

Reg wrote:My only comment is that with 3 english sides in the last 4 and having knocked out Arsenal in the last round, the 3 other premiership teams seem better able to combine a Domestic and CL campaign than we are. Why is that?

Man Utd and Chelsea have better squads and Arsenal were exposed for lack of strength in depth

by **Sabre** » Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:53 pm

crazyhorse wrote:Squad depth, simple as.

Our squad has been deep enough, but not for every position.

In the middle, you can afford to have Alonso injured, because you can put on Mascherano's shoulders all the weight of the team (at least for a while, if you overplay him he'll get tired -> rotation). That's the kind of quality rotation you can do with a deep enough squad.

But, have we a top class left winger or right winger? Kewell is injured and Babel isn't able to carry on his shoulders the starting eleven position of Liverpool FC. We lack a first choice man there.

Fabio Aurelio for instance is a proper man for LB first choice, and we have Arbeloa who can do a good job if he gets injured, there the depth is good enough.

So it depends what positions you look at. Kuyt has done a good job in the right, but that also means that no right wing player was able to claim "I'm the first choice here".

We don't need much more depth, we need to get spot on certain positions. I feel safe in GK, I feel safe in the CB, I feel safe in the holding and attacking midfielder camp, and with Torres I feel safe upfront. But we haven't a true first choice player for the left, neither for the right (unless you play Gerrard there), and maybe neither for the RB.

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