Liverpool FC Forum

[Sabre]

Not on topic, but I would like to say here and now that I have and am enjoying this thread very much. There are so many informative and relevent posts and it is making for a quality debate. This could be the first time this has happened for some time.....
Thought it should be noted. And I extend my thanks to all involved as it really is good to read.

No doubt GBJH's entrance in the forum has changed things. 

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I do see things getting better. We are no longer completely dependant on Steven Gerrard to carry us through games when we are playing poorly. Now we have Fernando who has already shown can grab a goal from nowhere and others showing promise such as Babel. The future is looking better, but then again have we been saying this for too long already?

I still believe we rely on Gerrard more than any other player. Probably more under Benitez than under Houllier, whether that's progression or not I don't know. I say that because Gerrard has matured a bit more, more experince and hasn't had a Owen type of forward under Benitez, until this season in Torres. But even with Torres, I think the expectation lies more heavily on Gerrard. Gerrard has a bad game and the knives are out for him, questioning him again, still referring to his "nearly move" to Chelsea.

I agree the future's looking bright. Two youth cup wins, the reserves winning the league this year and some young lads making it into the first team like Babel, Lucas, Agger, even Torres. So I think our youth system probably has progressed but still hasn't produced anything as of yet. We're still waiting for the next big thing, so it hasn't progressed to far yet in terms of first team football.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Not on topic, but I would like to say here and now that I have and am enjoying this thread very much. There are so many informative and relevent posts and it is making for a quality debate. This could be the first time this has happened for some time.....
Thought it should be noted. And I extend my thanks to all involved as it really is good to read.

No doubt GBJH's entrance in the forum has changed things. 

being a positive man, I'll take that as a compliment.

[redtrader74]

One thing we definatly lack in comparison to our rivals in the EPL, and especially the two who have always finished above us during Rafas reign is assertiveness. We do not bully our opponents or the referee and rarely manipulate the press. I know we hate the jibes of fergie putting pressure on the referees via the press, and winding up rival managers, and the way Terry, Ferdinand et al pressurise officials, but they have taken advantage and been allowed to while we on the whole play a little more fairly, which has and will cost us whilst they are allowed to get away with it.

I don't think there is enough conviction and swagger about our team, IMO its part of the reason we don't finish teams off or believe enough to win when we play badly, the problem is some of this will arise with winning, and we seem to have it in the CL, the belief is there, transferring it to the EPL is whats needed.

Sabre
LFC Elite Member




Group: LFC Premium Members
Posts: 7459
Joined: Oct. 2004  Posted: April 17 2008,23:03 




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Quote (crazyhorse @ April 17 2008,22:51)
Not on topic, but I would like to say here and now that I have and am enjoying this thread very much. There are so many informative and relevent posts and it is making for a quality debate. This could be the first time this has happened for some time.....
Thought it should be noted. And I extend my thanks to all involved as it really is good to read.

No doubt GBJH's entrance in the forum has changed things.   

[Sabre]

That's right Redtrader. But not because our players or captain lack of right attitude. They're allowed to get away with it because they've been champions (recently), and you haven't. Success and titles put you in that situation.

The same effect happens in players. Torres came as a newbie and had not a respect. He has earned a respect, and now when he moans to a ref, or he chats with a oppo defender he isn't dismissed  like a newbie, he has a respect. (Stu said once he never ever talks to oppo players while a game, but Torres for sure will tell things like "you're not good enough" to some defender's ears in corners) .

That kind of "position to moan" is given by titles. If you open the can of getting a premiership title now, the second one will come much easier than this one.

[redtrader74]

That's right Redtrader. But not because or players or captain lack of right attitude. They're allowed to get away with it because they've been champions, and you haven't. Success and titles put you in that situation.

The same effect happens in player. Torres came as a newbie and had not a respect. He has earned a respect, and now when he moans to a ref, or he chats with a oppo defender he isn't dismissed  like a newbie, he has a respect. (Stu said once he never ever talks to oppo players while a game, but Torres for sure will tell things like "you're not good enough" to some defender's ears in corners) .

That kind of "position to moan" is given by titles. If you open the can of getting a premiership title now, the second one will come much easier than this one.

I agree, but in some cases Terry for example, people have had that arrogance. Carra does it to some extent, SG rarely does, Torres has now and again, but thats it, being at LFC gives players a standing in the game and we should use whatever advantage that gives to our gain.

[taff]

One other thing about nthis "domination" thing. It's not so much that it's English clubs, it's just that it's so few clubs.

Unlike the many and various clubs that dominated 77 to 85 seems we have one more club involved now than the three who won it in that period.

The PL is probably ahead of anywhers else in TV money, marketing etc but all of Europe now want to catch up, or the big leagues in Europe I should say.  There is now a call for change in Germany who are fantastic with ticket prices etc as they see their teams falling behind every season.

Referee decisions well thats verging on conspiracy theory but as football fans we are all probably sympathetic to those views.

A complete cynic might think that the fans not so warm to Rafa might want the CL to be seen as cheaper so it strengthens their argument against Rafa

[god_bless_john_houlding]

One thing we definatly lack in comparison to our rivals in the EPL, and especially the two who have always finished above us during Rafas reign is assertiveness. We do not bully our opponents or the referee and rarely manipulate the press. I know we hate the jibes of fergie putting pressure on the referees via the press, and winding up rival managers, and the way Terry, Ferdinand et al pressurise officials, but they have taken advantage and been allowed to while we on the whole play a little more fairly, which has and will cost us whilst they are allowed to get away with it.

I don't think there is enough conviction and swagger about our team, IMO its part of the reason we don't finish teams off or believe enough to win when we play badly, the problem is some of this will arise with winning, and we seem to have it in the CL, the belief is there, transferring it to the EPL is whats needed.

The difference isn't that fact that we don't do it, we (with the exception of Carra) don't go all guns blazing. We have a bit more respect for the officals than that. If a corner is given at Stamford Bridge the chelsea lads surround the official. We have more tact about us, and don't hunt in groups. We still have pressured referees, Gerrard having a word with Clattenburg to get Hibbert sent off, Gerrard not leaving the ref alone during the Blackburn game just gone, Carra with the ones I've already mentioned. So I think we do it, probably not to the extreme where there's six or seven players or have steam coming out of our ears.

[bigmick]

A complete cynic might think that the fans not so warm to Rafa might want the CL to be seen as cheaper so it strengthens their argument against Rafa

A complete cynic would be coming to an understandable conclusion given previously held points of view Taff, so thank God you're not one of those   

Realistically though, if we got put out by Chelsea many people will this time next year and be listing our past achievements. Chief amongst our achievements this season will have been "Champions league semi finalists" which is pretty impressive. I'm merely making the point though, that this what we've had to do in order to get there.

First we had to get in the first four in the league the previous season or win the Champions League. We almost achieved the latter as it turned out, but went down to an ageing Milan team in the final. We did slightly hamstring ourselves by choosing to leave our top goalscorer on the bench in that final but on balance we had no complaints, they were the better side on the night. Anyway, as far as this season was concerned it didn't really matter as we sailed into the first four in the league, even finishing third. We were 21 points behind the eventual winners, but no matter, we were in. 

We then had to negotiate a group which had a Turkish team, a French team and a Portuguese outfit. We didn't need to win the group, just come in the first two. We made hard work of it as it happens, almost "styled" ourselves out of it but the belated realisation that we really ought to start putting out sensible teams if we were going to qualify got us through. We beat one of the teams 8-0 or something, another one 4-0 away and eventually qualified with a bit to spare despite losing a couple (one of the games bizarrely against a team who we later beat 8-0).

We then ran into Inter who are p!ssing the Italian league apparently. There is an old saying in football that you can sometimes only play as well as the opposition allows you to play, and in their case we must have been pretty good at stopping them from playing (in all fairness to the manager and the team we are pretty good at that in Europe). I think/thought they were a fairly ordinary team to be honest, and we brushed them aside comfortably.

Next up was Arsenal, who are without doubt a good team. We had a real humdinger against them, and thanks to a late goal or two which snatched victory from the jaws of defeat, we saw them off which was a real achievement in my book.

Next up we play Chelsea. If we can see them off and beat man Utd in the final, THAT will be a fantastic achievement. If we can see Chelsea off and don't win the final, it will still be a very good achievement.

What we have done so far though, the Arsenal win for certain and to a slightly lesser extent the Inter one apart, is do what we ought to do. We'll get out of the group next season, and so will all the other English teams as well.

I want the manager to stay now he stopped the selectorial silliness. But the "we got to the Champions League semi's" sounds great until you look at it a bit more closely. "We got to the fifth round of the FA Cup" sounds OK until you remember we beat havent and Waterlooville after twice going behind, needed an equaliser and a replay against Luton and eventually perished at Home to Barnsley (nothing to do with rotation though).

Lets start having a real go in the truest test of all, that at the end of the day is all I ask. Lets mount a challenge to win the league, it starts and ends there.

[Kharhaz]

I dont think its down to the bullying of referees but without a doubt the referees do make a difference. As many have recognised the premiership refs are poor, very poor. We could argue we do well in europe not because we play better (as this seasons showing in the competition would dispel that fact) but that we are on an equal footing with regards to a fair game. Against united or chelsea we are 90% sure of an equal footing, not so in the premiership.

[Rush Job]

This priority of league versus Champions League one is interesting. Either Rafa tries his best in the Prem but has had absolutely zero success in it, or the reason he has had absolutely zero success is because he's not trying in it.

Either way round and I and everybody else I would guess have no way of knowing his inner thoughts, I would quite like a bit of success in it if thats OK. So if he's not been trying in the Premiership before, next season is a good place to start. If he has been trying but is infact just useless in the Premiership, then stop being useless as from next season. There, sorted

Im sorry but thats just nonsence, is Rafa trying in the league?? Again sorry but wtf do you think he does before a league game? just feck around not really preparing and i suppose he tells the players not to run around too much because theres a CL game coming up, and then during the game does he just sit there picking his f*ckin nose and thinking about his holidays? cus it doesnt look that way to me, offen it seems he`s the only one who does give a toss if anything its the feckin players not trying the same not him.And i wonder why, maybe because THEY rate the CL higher, acturly theres no maybe about it they f*ckin admit it. Torres signed for us to win it, Gerrard admits its hard getting up for an away day at Wigan after a " great european night " so how about we get rid of them while we are at it bring in Kevin Davies and feckin Scot Parker because their up for Wigan.
You take every chance you get to put Rafa down, to call him mad to have a go at his "dodgy" decissions, you say we are in the league well are we because i dont think so, fair enough we havent yet put in a challenge but can you not see bit by bit he`s putting together a side that will a young side at that and maybe its taking him a little longer because he keeps having to do it with limited funds and a CEO who cant dot a few I`s and cross a couple of T`s not to mention the power struggles ffs, Jesus i`d like to see someone do a better job with what he`s having to put up with right now, anyone else would of walked a long time ago.
But ok we should be doing a little better in the league and im sure given the chance it`ll come because Rafa is a winner and right now you can see this in the CL where his/our record is magnifisent so what do you come out with a load of about the comp being weak and basicly saying we should be winning it every other year, oh yer but thats not having a go or nothing your just pointing it out, like your "cards on the table" before the Arsenal game whitch had we been beaten you would have been giving it all the b*llocks about "styling" but what happened oh yes we won 4 2, so where was the big boring post about how Rafa got it spot on and you got it so wrong??
You may not have noticed but there a f*ckin crisis going on so how about a bit of support how about saying how well the manager has done this season considering all that has gone on, or are you to busy trying to find new angles to have a go from. Oh i forgot your not having a pop, whatever.

[taff]

Mick a cynic is what an idealist calls a realist

Its too late now for me to start debating the comparison between the FA cup and the CL, suffice to say I disagree.

Inter were tipped as one of the favourites, if they looked ordinary maybe there was a reason and they are the team in serie a this year

To get lucky against arsenal in one or two incidents also might mean that we competed and played for the other 88 odd minutes over two legs

But the league debate you get no argument off me as I too am desperate to win it but I think the difference being between me and you is our impression of the manager.  I respect your views as they are inevitably well thought out but I also disagree with them as well.  I am confident of us competing for the league with Rafa and winning it and Im sure you would rather get a I told you so off me next season than me getting one off you

[Bad Bob]

One other thing about nthis "domination" thing. It's not so much that it's English clubs, it's just that it's so few clubs.

Look the big clubs are getting exactly what they wanted out of the Champions League. The old European Cup format was no good to them at all, the holders could draw a lively candidate and get put out in the first round (like we did against Forest) or you could draw somebody in the early rounds, have a bad night and come a cropper (like we did against Dynamo Tibliski or however the feck you spell it). Even worse, you could not win your domestic championship and not get in the thing in the first place.

No, the big clubs wanted guaranteed income, the certainty of huge matches for TV later in the season every year. So there's four big clubs in England? Well you need to finsih in the top four to qualify then. You might lose matches early in the season while your getting fit/styling/bedding in new players? We'll do a group thing then, top two go through. We'll also make sure every groups got a no-hoper in to give you all a chance, and we'll kind of seed it to make it even more certain you'll progress. Allied to that, like in the Premiership the big clubs get looked at favourably by the referees, the rules get changed if a big club finishes outside the qualification segment in their league and hey presto, the biggest clubs get through to the latter rounds every time. No criticism of Rafa or Liverpool here, I'm simply making the point that when you are given a golden ticket in a competition, you shouldn't always be getting out the bunting when the team actually accepts whats been offered.

All good points, mate.  I've think you've made a strong case for why a core group of teams have, if you will, an inside track for success in the CL.  That we are one of those teams is most certainly down to Rafa, as comparison's to the Houllier era show.  As for breaking out the bunting, I think that a lot of supporters are rather exuberant because of the calibre of teams we manage to beat to reach said semis.  Barcelona last season was a hell of an achievement I'm sure you'll admit (with PSV, our actual QF opponent, a less stern test, obviously).  This year we got by the Italian champs--still a very good achievement in my books, even if you do seem a shade less impressed.  The real boon was besting Arsenal, however.  Here's one of our top domestic rivals and a team that looked to be some distance ahead of us in terms of their football this season and, yet, we did what few in England seemed to think possible.  If we had had Chelsea's route to the semis--Olympiakos and Fenerbahce--I think reactions would have been far more muted.

[taff]

This priority of league versus Champions League one is interesting. Either Rafa tries his best in the Prem but has had absolutely zero success in it, or the reason he has had absolutely zero success is because he's not trying in it.

Either way round and I and everybody else I would guess have no way of knowing his inner thoughts, I would quite like a bit of success in it if thats OK. So if he's not been trying in the Premiership before, next season is a good place to start. If he has been trying but is infact just useless in the Premiership, then stop being useless as from next season. There, sorted

Im sorry but thats just nonsence, is Rafa trying in the league?? Again sorry but wtf do you think he does before a league game? just feck around not really preparing and i suppose he tells the players not to run around too much because theres a CL game coming up, and then during the game does he just sit there picking his f*ckin nose and thinking about his holidays? cus it doesnt look that way to me, offen it seems he`s the only one who does give a toss if anything its the feckin players not trying the same not him.And i wonder why, maybe because THEY rate the CL higher, acturly theres no maybe about it they f*ckin admit it. Torres signed for us to win it, Gerrard admits its hard getting up for an away day at Wigan after a " great european night " so how about we get rid of them while we are at it bring in Kevin Davies and feckin Scot Parker because their up for Wigan.
You take every chance you get to put Rafa down, to call him mad to have a go at his "dodgy" decissions, you say we are in the league well are we because i dont think so, fair enough we havent yet put in a challenge but can you not see bit by bit he`s putting together a side that will a young side at that and maybe its taking him a little longer because he keeps having to do it with limited funds and a CEO who cant dot a few I`s and cross a couple of T`s not to mention the power struggles ffs, Jesus i`d like to see someone do a better job with what he`s having to put up with right now, anyone else would of walked a long time ago.
But ok we should be doing a little better in the league and im sure given the chance it`ll come because Rafa is a winner and right now you can see this in the CL where his/our record is magnifisent so what do you come out with a load of about the comp being weak and basicly saying we should be winning it every other year, oh yer but thats not having a go or nothing your just pointing it out, like your "cards on the table" before the Arsenal game whitch had we been beaten you would have been giving it all the b*llocks about "styling" but what happened oh yes we won 4 2, so where was the big boring post about how Rafa got it spot on and you got it so wrong??
You may not have noticed but there a f*ckin crisis going on so how about a bit of support how about saying how well the manager has done this season considering all that has gone on, or are you to busy trying to find new angles to have a go from. Oh i forgot your not having a pop, whatever.

I agree totally wth your points about Rafa and the team etc but its also a pleasure to have a debate with Mick regardless of his side of the debate

Even if in the last twelve months I have read him more than any Gabriel Garcia Marquez book

[crazyhorse]

The points made about the difference in success in the CL and Premier league are all correct to my mind.

However the one anomaly I see is Anfield. In the league our home form has not always been the best, or at least not good enough to compete with Manure ect. In the CL the Anfield crowd creates an atmosphere that is basically scaring the other teams off the pitch but we do not always see that in the league.

Why?