Liverpool FC Forum

by **Scottbot** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:21 am

ConnO'var wrote:For me, the recent run of results can be attributed to 2 factors.

Agree with you bob, that firstly we've had a stable formation (4-2-3-1) and obviously being a proponent of less rotation, the impression (have not checked that yet to conclude this as fact) that the squad has been more stable. Now, which is the more crucial factor is still a matter of opinion.

All I know is that the results have been going our way and they have been added benefits.

1. We get to play our best players (3 out of 4 world class midfielders in the same side without having to resort to a 4-5-1 or 3-5-2 or 5-3-2)
2. Gerrard and Torres seem to be gelling into an outstanding partnership
3. Kuyt's been playing out of his skin lately and though he's still not perfect, he's way smarter than Pennant on the front right and seems to have found a niche for himself in that position.
4. The team seems to be having a lot of fun out there and it shows.... they're playing much more cohesively as a unit and confidence is apparently high.

All in all things are starting to look good and I'm glad that Rafa has adopted this formation and policy as we are playing much better now. It also shows that he's at last being more flexible about his policy to rotation and for that, I'm glad.

Would make investment for next season much easier..... 2 wide players and a back up striker, in case Gerrard or Torres gets hurt.

Good post mate.

by **ruskiy playmaker** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:24 am

s@int wrote:I agree with most of the new discussion about rotation (to be fair to Rafa, I think he is also starting to see the added benefits of a more settled team). What I am still unsure about is the new formation. I need to see it work against the top teams as well as teams we should beat easily anyway before I am convinced.

I agree it seems to have enabled Kuyt to gain some confidence and bring Alonso back into the mix, but I have a lingering doubt that it will not prove equally successful against Arsenal and the mancs. Nevertheless, I want Rafa to persist with it to the end of the season until we can bring in the top quality that we need. I still feel this system is more to hide our weaknessess (strikers)rather than emphasising our strengths, and that next season we will be playing 4-4-1-1

I think that we should keep this formation for the new season, even if we bring in better attacking players. I just don't to like to see Gerrard in a 442, because he is not discaplined enough and he goes missing far too many times, plus he does not combine that well with Torres and Babel. This current formation is in no way negative as long as you have fast skillfull players that combine really well.

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 2:47 am

s@int wrote:I still feel this system is more to hide our weaknessess (strikers)rather than emphasising our strengths, and that next season we will be playing 4-4-1-1

with Gerrard where?

by **Thingy** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:30 am

Its fair to say I think since we've played with this formation and with a much more settled side, results have improved. Does that mean rotation is bad ? We will have to wait and see. Rotation is good in small doses in my opinion. Sometimes, more than sometimes Rafa does go a little ott with it, but hopefully from now on he will be more settled.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:32 am

Having benefitted from extra rest earlier on in the season, the players are fresher, giving them an athletic edge over our overtaxed opponents. There's another interpretation for you.

We're rotating less now in comparison to earlier on in the season because we're no longer involved in the FA cup, the league cup, and we don't have the UCL group stages to deal with. After all, those were the games in which we rotated too much (apparently) and subsequently lost momentum in the league.

The bottom line is, any upturn in form that corresponds with a slightly more settled side rotation-of-personnel-wise would be put down as evidence that rotating less is beneficial to the side in the long term. We've been under so much pressure to perform recently, positive results were an inevitability sooner or later.

I wouldn't put much of this good form in any great way down to rotating less. We've had a run of relatively easy games in the league, 3 of which were against relegation candidates. Like I said, such has been our desperate need for results our form was bound to take a turn for the better, especially against teams of that calibre.

I'd put our upturn in form mainly down to Gerrard and Torres hitting spectacular form of late, without them I think it's quite likely we'd have drawn one game out of the last four. I take the point that keeping the formation settled has brought a bit more cohesion to the team, but I still believe that with the right players (Left winger, second forward, left back) rotating on average 3 players per game, is compatible with making a firm title challenge. Keeping a settled formation will invariably mean less-rotation vis-a-vis personnel on the whole - but not by a great margin, so it follows that rotating less (but only marginally) is simply a consequence of keeping a settled formation.

The Sissoko factor; I think Sissoko's absence has had an impact on the extent to which we keep a settled side. He's one less player to try and accomodate - invariably when he did play, it was in a strange formation that didn't quite click (Newcastle away, we won, but he didn't really fit in, Reading away too). He wasn't the greatest ball player either, despite on his day being a brilliant destructive force, but players poor on the ball generally don't help cohesion and understanding. It was always a bit more stop-start when he played.

by **maguskwt** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:47 am

don't know if anyone's posted before, but here you go:

*******************************************
ROONEY SUPPORTS ROTATION POLICY
By Paul Walker, PA Sport

Manchester United striker Wayne Rooney has come out in support of the rotation of players, the same system Liverpool manager Rafael Benitez has been criticised for using.

The Liverpool boss has been criticised for most of the season for his rotation policy, but now former Everton striker Rooney has admitted that United boss Sir Alex Ferguson does exactly the same and it works.

Benitez will be forgiven a wry smile at that, because he has long insisted in the face of fierce opposition that all top clubs rotate their players.

Benitez said on the subject: "When I change players it is rotation, when other managers do it, they call it resting people."

And now Rooney has come out in support of rotation, as it is revealed that Ferguson has not named the same side for successive matches since August.

Despite an injury to Ryan Giggs, Ferguson was able to name Paul Scholes, Owen Hargreaves and Carlos Tevez among the substitutes in midweek in the 2-1 aggregate victory over Lyon in the Champions League, with Cristiano Ronaldo's 30th goal of the season winning the second leg 1-0.

Rooney said in an interview with UEFA: "Last season we had a lot of injuries and we had a few players who played a lot of games and they were tired.

"Now we have a big squad so hopefully the rotation policy will help us. I think we are a lot fresher.

"A lot of players have not played so many games this season. We brought players in, the squad is bigger and we have not really got any serious injuries at the moment."

After brushing aside Roma 7-1 in the Champions League last eight at Old Trafford last year, United ran out of steam against AC Milan in the semi-finals, a combination of fatigue and injuries taking their toll.

It is a situation Ferguson is clearly determined to avoid in a bid to keep his squad fresh.

While the defence is largely settled he rotates his midfield and attack, with summer arrivals Nani, Anderson and Tevez giving him plenty of options.

Ronaldo, now the Champions League's joint leading scorer with six goals, believes the side is "more mature" than last year and Ferguson's ability to keep a harmonious squad while ringing the changes backs that up.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:55 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bob, don't you think the problems we've had at the back is down to rotation. The last couple of years our defence has been as good as anybodys, but this season we've been shakey at the back.

2004/05...Dudek/Finnan/Hyypia/Carra/Riise (with the odd addition of Traore and Pelligrino)
2005/06...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Riise (with Hyypia coming in every now and then)
2006/07...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Aurellio (with Riise, Arbeloa and Hyypia playing bit parts)

This season however (down to injuries to some extent) we haven't had a fixed back four and keeper all season. Finnan, Arbeloa and Carra have all been fighting for the right back position. Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Carra and Arbeloa have all been the centre half pairing at some point this season. On the left we've had Aurellio, Riise and Arbeloa. We need to fix on a settled back four with Reina behind them in goal, then our defensive problems (mainly at set-pieces) would be sorted out IMO. To many people have been in that back four this season.

I know injuries at the back have been more prominent this year than last, GBJH, but we still rotated the back four a fair bit last year (back five if you count Dudek coming in for the domestic cups). I remember many people remarking last season how solid we remained defensively despite Riise, say, swapping with Aurelio. I also remember that we had a good run of defensive form early this season whilst changing the back four personnel around on a fairly frequent basis. As for set pieces, we defend as a whole team so it's not just a back four issue.

IMO, Rafa has the entire squad very well drilled on defensive tactics. The fact that Carra can sub in at RB and Arbeloa at CB shows the faith he has in their training. But, when it comes to the attacking side of the game I think it's harder to foster the required understanding in training.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:21 am

Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bob, don't you think the problems we've had at the back is down to rotation. The last couple of years our defence has been as good as anybodys, but this season we've been shakey at the back.

2004/05...Dudek/Finnan/Hyypia/Carra/Riise (with the odd addition of Traore and Pelligrino)
2005/06...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Riise (with Hyypia coming in every now and then)
2006/07...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Aurellio (with Riise, Arbeloa and Hyypia playing bit parts)

This season however (down to injuries to some extent) we haven't had a fixed back four and keeper all season. Finnan, Arbeloa and Carra have all been fighting for the right back position. Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Carra and Arbeloa have all been the centre half pairing at some point this season. On the left we've had Aurellio, Riise and Arbeloa. We need to fix on a settled back four with Reina behind them in goal, then our defensive problems (mainly at set-pieces) would be sorted out IMO. To many people have been in that back four this season.

I know injuries at the back have been more prominent this year than last, GBJH, but we still rotated the back four a fair bit last year (back five if you count Dudek coming in for the domestic cups). I remember many people remarking last season how solid we remained defensively despite Riise, say, swapping with Aurelio. I also remember that we had a good run of defensive form early this season whilst changing the back four personnel around on a fairly frequent basis. As for set pieces, we defend as a whole team so it's not just a back four issue.

IMO, Rafa has the entire squad very well drilled on defensive tactics. The fact that Carra can sub in at RB and Arbeloa at CB shows the faith he has in their training. But, when it comes to the attacking side of the game I think it's harder to foster the required understanding in training.

Our league side didn't change a great deal that much though Bob, not at the back anyway. If it did change it was left back...Aurellio, Arbeloa, Riise and even Insua. The other three (four with Reina) were pretty much picked week in week out. This season however we've swapped to many players into different positions. Finnan at left back? Arbeloa centre half? Hyypia centre mid in pre season?

To many changes have caused this season's defensive problems. Two clean sheets on the bounce now, because it's been a steady side. Obviously there's been chances created against us, but I feel comfortable if it's a settled back line. Anyone will tell you that a side is built from the back.

United and Arsenal, injury free of course you can pick their back four and keeper. Chelsea this season have been tampering around with their defense to much (injuries again play their part) but that's why it's us and them who are third and fourth.

You could ask ten different people to name their back five and you'd probably get seven different answers. Whereas if you ask an Arsenal or Man United fan, you'd be lucky to get two different answers. Some might say it's a good thing to have that many options, others think it's to many. Either way I'd try and sell Aurellio and Riise in the summer. Arbeloa is good enough for left back at the mo, with Insua covering if things get bad. 4 centre halves, all capable of doing some job next season and Finnan at right back with Arbeloa/Darby covering.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:20 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Bob, don't you think the problems we've had at the back is down to rotation. The last couple of years our defence has been as good as anybodys, but this season we've been shakey at the back.

2004/05...Dudek/Finnan/Hyypia/Carra/Riise (with the odd addition of Traore and Pelligrino)
2005/06...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Riise (with Hyypia coming in every now and then)
2006/07...Reina/Finnan/Agger/Carra/Aurellio (with Riise, Arbeloa and Hyypia playing bit parts)

This season however (down to injuries to some extent) we haven't had a fixed back four and keeper all season. Finnan, Arbeloa and Carra have all been fighting for the right back position. Agger, Skrtel, Hyypia, Carra and Arbeloa have all been the centre half pairing at some point this season. On the left we've had Aurellio, Riise and Arbeloa. We need to fix on a settled back four with Reina behind them in goal, then our defensive problems (mainly at set-pieces) would be sorted out IMO. To many people have been in that back four this season.

I know injuries at the back have been more prominent this year than last, GBJH, but we still rotated the back four a fair bit last year (back five if you count Dudek coming in for the domestic cups). I remember many people remarking last season how solid we remained defensively despite Riise, say, swapping with Aurelio. I also remember that we had a good run of defensive form early this season whilst changing the back four personnel around on a fairly frequent basis. As for set pieces, we defend as a whole team so it's not just a back four issue.

IMO, Rafa has the entire squad very well drilled on defensive tactics. The fact that Carra can sub in at RB and Arbeloa at CB shows the faith he has in their training. But, when it comes to the attacking side of the game I think it's harder to foster the required understanding in training.

Our league side didn't change a great deal that much though Bob, not at the back anyway. If it did change it was left back...Aurellio, Arbeloa, Riise and even Insua. The other three (four with Reina) were pretty much picked week in week out. This season however we've swapped to many players into different positions. Finnan at left back? Arbeloa centre half? Hyypia centre mid in pre season?

To many changes have caused this season's defensive problems. Two clean sheets on the bounce now, because it's been a steady side. Obviously there's been chances created against us, but I feel comfortable if it's a settled back line. Anyone will tell you that a side is built from the back.

United and Arsenal, injury free of course you can pick their back four and keeper. Chelsea this season have been tampering around with their defense to much (injuries again play their part) but that's why it's us and them who are third and fourth.

You could ask ten different people to name their back five and you'd probably get seven different answers. Whereas if you ask an Arsenal or Man United fan, you'd be lucky to get two different answers. Some might say it's a good thing to have that many options, others think it's to many. Either way I'd try and sell Aurellio and Riise in the summer. Arbeloa is good enough for left back at the mo, with Insua covering if things get bad. 4 centre halves, all capable of doing some job next season and Finnan at right back with Arbeloa/Darby covering.

I agree--a settled back four is preferable to chopping and changing. Ultimately, I think that's what Rafa wants too. He'll switch the odd fullback here and there but I think he prefers to keep things steady at the back.

I just find it interesting that when he is forced into changes (and things like Arbeloa at CB is stop gap measures forced on him by injuries or suspensions) it hasn't totally derailed us. I think it speaks volumes about how he drills the defence.

I might consider shipping out one of Riise or Aurelio, with Insua as back-up next season. I wouldn't want to see Arbeloa over there on his wrong foot though. Especially if we persist with this 4-2-3-1 system, we need fullbacks who can overlap and get crosses in. That's why we need a left-footer at LB.

by **66-1112520797** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 6:28 am

I'm not sure if you've seen the game yet Mick but the game took on a much different complexion after Gerrard and Torres came off. The rout was on until the subs and after that Newcastle started to gain more possession and belief. Partly it could have been due to the change in formation once Kuyt and Crouch came on but it was noticeable. So, I think we did need both today (but of course I knew you weren't really arguing we didn't, just underscoring a point about Newcastle).

I'm glad you saw that.

Remember Fratton Park ?

by **skatesy** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 7:26 am

Admitingly, it is easier to rotate when you have, in general, a bigger and stronger squad of players. Manchester United have more at their disposal in terms of quality so, therefore, it is easier.

Rotating Torres for Voronin is absolute :censored:

. Whereas, rotating Rooney or Tevez for Saha is a much easier task.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:29 am

JoeTerp wrote:
s@int wrote:I still feel this system is more to hide our weaknessess (strikers)rather than emphasising our strengths, and that next season we will be playing 4-4-1-1

with Gerrard where?

With Gerrard playing central with Mascherano, and a top quality creative second striker playing behind Torres.

I would prefer Gerrard playing in his present position supporting Torres rather than pushing him out to the wing again.

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 10:42 am

Bamaga man wrote:[
I'm glad you saw that.

Remember Fratton Park ?

Whereve you been you keep poping up when i least expect give me time to get me lippy on next time before you pop up again :laugh:

Saint im lovin the understanding with Gerrard and Torres ive waited a long time to see a great understanding of each otheres play come back to Anfield again and these two have got it spot on, Wonderful to see

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:02 am

NANNY RED wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:[
I'm glad you saw that.

Remember Fratton Park ?

Whereve you been you keep poping up when i least expect give me time to get me lippy on next time before you pop up again

Saint im lovin the understanding with Gerrard and Torres ive waited a long time to see a great understanding of each otheres play come back to Anfield again and these two have got it spot on, Wonderful to see

I agree Nanny , it reminds me of the partnership he used to have with Owen , except Torres also has the ability and vision to repay the compliment by setting Gerrard up as well.

by **Sabre** » Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:47 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Having benefitted from extra rest earlier on in the season, the players are fresher, giving them an athletic edge over our overtaxed opponents. There's another interpretation for you.

We're rotating less now in comparison to earlier on in the season because we're no longer involved in the FA cup, the league cup, and we don't have the UCL group stages to deal with. After all, those were the games in which we rotated too much (apparently) and subsequently lost momentum in the league.

I couldn't agree more your post except in the last bit about Sissoko mate. Plus, you've been told you're arrogant in the past, but at least you admit yours is just another interpretation. Which is a bit less cheeky than saying that Rafa has seen eventually the light on the more settled side.

Mind you, we've had in the past other good games in a row, we've been 13 games without losing other seasons, and it was all under rotation methodology.

Rafa has said rotation is about to keep fresh players, not this month, 7 years ago. It's a well known fact. So it's not rocket science that if you put less games into the equation there will be less need for rotation, there's still some rotation needless to say, and players like Kuyt or Pennant can enter the team or be on the bench. Just like Alonso, who's been off the team and now he's recovered a place in the team. So rotation factor is not zero.

As for the game changing after Gerrard and Torres that Bad Bob mentions, well, I consider them MOM, Gerrard first, Torres second, but I've seen many games dropping intensity after the game is 3-0 on your side. Meaning, I'm ready to give those players all the credit of the world, but I won't say the rest of Liverpool football club are lame players neither (not that Bad Bob says that neither).

My reasons for this improvement in the game and victories are:

* Spectacular form of Torres and Gerrard
* Recovering of our traditional defensive awareness and intensity
* The rumours about Rafa calming down and being less pressure around him.

Rotation, as always, has a minor effect, and most of it is noticed in the freshness of players.

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