Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:53 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Lando I think you'll find Houllier's first FULL season was 98/99 not the 97/98 which was the season we finished 7th. It was after the time Evans/Houllier had shared the management.

Secondly, Ambrovich arrived at Chelsea at the start of the 03/04 season, when Houllier WAS our manager so it obviously was there while he was in charge. And if you cast your memory back far enough, you'll no doubt remember that the first game Ambrovich was owner of Chelsea was against Liverpool. Remember now? I'll make it even clearer for you, Veron (remember him ex Man United) scored the winner for Chelsea. OK?

I'll make it even clearer for YOU:

"Chelsea's financial dominance wasn't apparent whilst Houllier was in charge" - that doesn't mean Abramovic wasn't there - it means they hadn't yet become the force that won the title 2 years running.

OK?

Well the dominance was there, financially. As they spent millions upon millions upon millions under Ambrovich with Ranieri in charge.

Or to you, is it because they didn't win the league, therefore they didn't have the money they do now? The fact that they came 2nd that year obviously means that there wasn't any money backing him. eh?

So they finished 2nd the same year as us, now?

I said their dominance wasn't apparent. It wasn't. They were not as strong, they were not as good.

Is it really that hard to understand?

We finished 2nd in 02/03 (the year before Ambrovich) Chelsea finished 2nd 03/04 (the first year Ambrovich was owner) is your knowledge on football that slim?

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:55 pm

So I ask again what reasons make you believe that Rafa will win the league (not counting blind optimism and faith)

The premiership title seems far away, but it seems far away because it's a long time without winning it. The huge point difference this season also indicate that it's far away.

But it's a fact that Arsenal made two fourth places in the last two years. And from that "huge" distance, now it turns out to happen that they MAY win it this year.

Chelsea seemed to be dominating the league two and three years ago. Everybody talked about the gap between Chelsea and the other teams. Manchester United showed yesteryear that the gap was not such and won the league comfortably.

My point is simple: The difference between the four English teams is subtle, and not great. Should one of them do everything right a season, any of them can win it.

Now, the fact says that we haven't won it in the last 4 years. The first two seasons of those years, I think we all admit we were building up a team. So in worst case scenario, and forgetting the cups, we have two failed seasons.

Now I think that Rafa is a good tactician. I don't know how he treats players because I have not the luck to be in Melwood. He is a good coach. Sometimes you see one lad is a good striker and you see him failing two glorious chances, but you know he will score sooner or later. That's the case of Rafa with me, in terms of managing.

Bar Torres, this year's signing ups have not convinced me (not that they dislike them but I expect a higher step in quality), except Skrtel. I think that we're obviously improving in every line of the team in this years. The goalie is great, we're preparing the generational change in the defence, we have a midfield crowded with quality, and we have again a striker that can make differences. The team is improving.

So, in a nutshell knowing the squad is getting better in terms of quality, knowing we have a good tactician, and knowing that Arsenal and Manchester are showing the differences are not that huge from one season to another, I think the most logical conclussion is that Rafa will give us the premiership title sooner rather than later.

If we're not too impatient, that is.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:56 pm

s@int wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:An another thing i watched the ressies tonight crackin team won 1-0 Nemeth again lobbed the keeper but i was impressed by Insua great prospect for next seasons left back position . Looking at them and the talent that Raffa has brought there i can only see good things for the future of LFC . these lads are learning the liverpool way there passing and movement was spot on , Were clear now top of the league

Will any of them ever get a real chance though? Hobbs must be heartbroken. Insua - we tried to get Heinze earlier in the season, we already have Arbeloa, Riise, Aurelio who can play there.

Will/can we be patient while a player gets the necessary experience in the first team, with the errors and mistakes costing us vital points? Or will we just dip into the transfer market and bring in another signing?

Thats the point i was trying to make before though saint what has wenger won in the time that Raffa has been here nothing well its paying divideds now with the kids that he brought through but look how long it took him can we be patient

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:02 pm

Sabre wrote:
So I ask again what reasons make you believe that Rafa will win the league (not counting blind optimism and faith)

The premiership title seems far away, but it seems far away because it's a long time without winning it. The huge point difference this season also indicate that it's far away.

But it's a fact that Arsenal made two fourth places in the last two years. And from that "huge" distance, now it turns out to happen that they MAY win it this year.

Chelsea seemed to be dominating the league two and three years ago. Everybody talked about the gap between Chelsea and the other teams. Manchester United showed yesteryear that the gap was not such and won the league comfortably.

My point is simple: The difference between the four English teams is subtle, and not great. Should one of them do everything right a season, any of them can win it.

Now, the fact says that we haven't won it in the last 4 years. The first two seasons of those years, I think we all admit we were building up a team. So in worst case scenario, and forgetting the cups, we have two failed seasons.

Now I think that Rafa is a good tactician. I don't know how he treats players because I have not the luck to be in Melwood. He is a good coach. Sometimes you see one lad is a good striker and you see him failing two glorious chances, but you know he will score sooner or later. That's the case of Rafa with me, in terms of managing.

Bar Torres, this year's signing ups have not convinced me (not that they dislike them but I expect a higher step in quality), except Skrtel. I think that we're obviously improving in every line of the team in this years. The goalie is great, we're preparing the generational change in the defence, we have a midfield crowded with quality, and we have again a striker that can make differences. The team is improving.

So, in a nutshell knowing the squad is getting better in terms of quality, knowing we have a good tactician, and knowing that Arsenal and Manchester are showing the differences are not that huge from one season to another, I think the most logical conclussion is that Rafa will give us the premiership title sooner rather than later.

If we're not too impatient, that is.

A good post Sabre that I won't spoil by picking holes in, what puzzles me though is if the team has improved year on year , why have our performances and results not?

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:04 pm

Nanny, the reason it's paying off for Wenger now, is because he was always breaking them into the 1st team, I don't see Benitez doing this. If Fabrregas was in the Liverpool youth/reserve, would he of been a regular at 17/18? I doubt it. If these lads were going to be given a go, they'd be bedded in much quicker than they have been. Insua, who in my own opinion looks a real talent and is rated highly by many others on here, should of been given a chance this year, rather than expect him to be a world star from the word go next year. After all he can't do any worse than Aurellio.

by **Sabre** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:06 pm

* Some bad team selections from Rafa

* Some bad choices in the signing ups this year.

* Atmosphere is not great

* Injuries

* Rotation (I put it for respect to others)

Sometimes is not easy to understand how a good striker fails some chances. How could he miss that? we ask. But honestly I don't see a bad progress. When a team is getting worse then it's the time to change manager. We just need to get right a few details, some are up to Rafa, some up to the board, and some up to our prayers, as luck is sometimes necessary. But we have all the ingredients for the equation.

If someone is so sure that the last asterisk is the main factor for we not winning it, then I'd find fair enough they think we should hire another manager. But still I'm not convinced is more important than other factors (sorry for that because I have paid attention to all the posts).

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:17 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Nanny, the reason it's paying off for Wenger now, is because he was always breaking them into the 1st team, I don't see Benitez doing this. If Fabrregas was in the Liverpool youth/reserve, would he of been a regular at 17/18? I doubt it. If these lads were going to be given a go, they'd be bedded in much quicker than they have been. Insua, who in my own opinion looks a real talent and is rated highly by many others on here, should of been given a chance this year, rather than expect him to be a world star from the word go next year. After all he can't do any worse than Aurellio.

Point made John but why did Raffa bring these kids in to the club then and he did bring most of the ressies in since hes been here surley not to say bye bye he must have seen something for the future . On the Fabregas bit i think with his talent any manager worth his salt would have had him in the first team and yes including Raffa . The young kid Ayala is looking good and although he is still very young and needs buildin up a bit Pacecho looks a fantastic prospect

by **bigmick** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:18 pm

maguskwt wrote:mick, if a new manager comes in what's ur specialty gonna be on this forum?

i'm afraid you have invested too much in the rotation topic...

You could be right Magus but you can be assured that i do actually quite enjoy posting about football stuff as well. You were quite fortunate in some respects in that you joined the rotation debate relatively late.

Three years ago when some of us first voiced our discontent and grave misgivings about the policy (around the time when I said no team would ever win nor challenge for the Premeirship while emplying etc etc) we were usually mocked, there was plenty of :buttrock

wait till the end of the seasons, and :;):

remember valencia's flying about. It was like you weren't allowed to doubt the tactical genius.

This season we had a protracted debate about how well each person felt we ought to do given the squad we had our disposal. People had varying views on how well we ought to go, and pro-rotationers/pro Rafa's really need to lose this silliness about "who else would have won the prem?". Pretty much nobody predicted nor expected the league title, but most people expected some sort of challenge, a sniff at least.

Now it's all gone pear shaped, I can't help feeling that people are sometimes more concerned with eventually been proven correct than they are getting in a manager who has a better chance of moving us forward. For this reason you get the "give him another season" cry, "let him compete in the transfer market", "lets show some faith" "You lot deserve Sam Allardyce" and the like. I think though that it's probably best to believe our own eyes on this one.

I suppose it's easy to say when it appears you picked the right horse, but I couldn't give a feck to be perfectly honest who is right or wrong, I think the club getting a fair return on the talent at it's disposal is more important. Given time, perhaps we can discuss zonal marking again (and believe me if you think I'm boring on rotation, don't even get me started on such things) as well as the merits of individual players. As I've said many times, if rafa was prepared to get more conventional, just to pick a team and lets get something going i'd be on the "give him a couple more years" bandwagon. Lets face it though, we all know that isn't going to happen.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:26 pm

NANNY RED wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Nanny, the reason it's paying off for Wenger now, is because he was always breaking them into the 1st team, I don't see Benitez doing this. If Fabrregas was in the Liverpool youth/reserve, would he of been a regular at 17/18? I doubt it. If these lads were going to be given a go, they'd be bedded in much quicker than they have been. Insua, who in my own opinion looks a real talent and is rated highly by many others on here, should of been given a chance this year, rather than expect him to be a world star from the word go next year. After all he can't do any worse than Aurellio.

Point made John but why did Raffa bring these kids in to the club then and he did bring most of the ressies in since hes been here surley not to say bye bye he must have seen something for the future . On the Fabregas bit i think with his talent any manager worth his salt would have had him in the first team and yes including Raffa . The young kid Ayala is looking good and although he is still very young and needs buildin up a bit Pacecho looks a fantastic prospect

Well Nanny, I agree that Benitez must of seen something in these young kids, but if they're that good, and I believe three or four are good enough to be 1st team members now, they should be given a go. Bed them into the side this season, especially since the league has gone for another year. Bed them in now and let them have experince for the start of next year, rather than come August, us having to use the excuse "they're kids with no experince" for three/four months. Bed them in NOW is what I'd rather see.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:33 pm

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Nanny, the reason it's paying off for Wenger now, is because he was always breaking them into the 1st team, I don't see Benitez doing this. If Fabrregas was in the Liverpool youth/reserve, would he of been a regular at 17/18? I doubt it. If these lads were going to be given a go, they'd be bedded in much quicker than they have been. Insua, who in my own opinion looks a real talent and is rated highly by many others on here, should of been given a chance this year, rather than expect him to be a world star from the word go next year. After all he can't do any worse than Aurellio.

Point made John but why did Raffa bring these kids in to the club then and he did bring most of the ressies in since hes been here surley not to say bye bye he must have seen something for the future . On the Fabregas bit i think with his talent any manager worth his salt would have had him in the first team and yes including Raffa . The young kid Ayala is looking good and although he is still very young and needs buildin up a bit Pacecho looks a fantastic prospect

Well Nanny, I agree that Benitez must of seen something in these young kids, but if they're that good, and I believe three or four are good enough to be 1st team members now, they should be given a go. Bed them into the side this season, especially since the league has gone for another year. Bed them in now and let them have experince for the start of next year, rather than come August, us having to use the excuse "they're kids with no experince" for three/four months. Bed them in NOW is what I'd rather see.

AGREED

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:10 am

NANNY RED wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:
NANNY RED wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Nanny, the reason it's paying off for Wenger now, is because he was always breaking them into the 1st team, I don't see Benitez doing this. If Fabrregas was in the Liverpool youth/reserve, would he of been a regular at 17/18? I doubt it. If these lads were going to be given a go, they'd be bedded in much quicker than they have been. Insua, who in my own opinion looks a real talent and is rated highly by many others on here, should of been given a chance this year, rather than expect him to be a world star from the word go next year. After all he can't do any worse than Aurellio.

Point made John but why did Raffa bring these kids in to the club then and he did bring most of the ressies in since hes been here surley not to say bye bye he must have seen something for the future . On the Fabregas bit i think with his talent any manager worth his salt would have had him in the first team and yes including Raffa . The young kid Ayala is looking good and although he is still very young and needs buildin up a bit Pacecho looks a fantastic prospect

Well Nanny, I agree that Benitez must of seen something in these young kids, but if they're that good, and I believe three or four are good enough to be 1st team members now, they should be given a go. Bed them into the side this season, especially since the league has gone for another year. Bed them in now and let them have experince for the start of next year, rather than come August, us having to use the excuse "they're kids with no experince" for three/four months. Bed them in NOW is what I'd rather see.

AGREED

Nanny hows about we go to bingo together from now on

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:23 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:Nanny hows about we go to bingo together from now on

yer on ill bring the dabbers and you bring the werthers

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:27 am

You can be legs 11

I'll be the two little ducks

by **NANNY RED** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:30 am

god_bless_john_houlding wrote:You can be legs 11

I'll be the two little ducks

See wheres Bamaga when i want him to see all this flattery goin on

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:32 am

NANNY RED wrote:
god_bless_john_houlding wrote:You can be legs 11

I'll be the two little ducks

See wheres Bamaga when i want him to see all this flattery goin on

Don't worry I will be reporting back to him

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