Liverpool FC Forum

zarababe wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

bigmick wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately

Give Rafa the benefit of the doubt, he subbed Gerrard in the Everton game because he felt that his eagerness to go forward at every opportunity might have cost us a goal, and at that point we were still in the title race. My interpretation of that comment is that he used the word 'passion' to describe Gerrard's urge to go forward all the time, and that this passion may have overrided rational thought. Lucas came on and provided a bit of composure and pattern to our play, we actually played quite well and in the end scored. It's not necessarily what I'd have done, but it paid off.
My point anyway: Don't take his explanations too literally.

Of course he wants all his players to play with passion, but when he made that comment it's my view that he was referring to the risk of playing without clear thought and composure. Passion can cloud logic.

Whether you agree with the decision to sub him is besides the point, he shouldn't be criticised for a comment which can quite reasonably be explained in exclusivity from its literal value. You could make a lot of his comments sound absurd if you took everything he says in its literal meaning.

Lando_Griffin wrote:

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

bigmick wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

Lando_Griffin wrote:No, because anyone who subs Gerrard is a mad man. A MAD MAN, I tells ya!!!!!

Isn't that right, tel?

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:

bigmick wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.

We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.

And he got subbed.

Fk me.

We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.

The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.

The Manhattan Project wrote:Maybe he took off Gerrard because Gerrard, being an anti-Toffee run-over-hot-coals-for-Liverpool player, may have got a little carried away at a critical point where cooler heads may have been needed?

Maybe.

Was he playing well? Did he change the game for us?

He is the only manager in the world that would have subbed Gerrard that day.

Because he's lost it Big time

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:No, because anyone who subs Gerrard is a mad man. A MAD MAN, I tells ya!!!!!

Isn't that right, tel?

Lando are you telling me you sat there and saw gerrard get subbed in that game and thought to yourself I get that. I think that's a good decision?

Anyone that subbed Gerrard in that game clearly is doing it as an agenda, to prove a point. There is no football reason for taking him off.

You have a go explaining why he did it.

tel wrote:

Lando_Griffin wrote:No, because anyone who subs Gerrard is a mad man. A MAD MAN, I tells ya!!!!!

Isn't that right, tel?

Lando are you telling me you sat there and saw gerrard get subbed in that game and thought to yourself I get that. I think that's a good decision?

Anyone that subbed Gerrard in that game clearly is doing it as an agenda, to prove a point. There is no football reason for taking him off.

You have a go explaining why he did it.

tel wrote:

The Manhattan Project wrote:Maybe he took off Gerrard because Gerrard, being an anti-Toffee run-over-hot-coals-for-Liverpool player, may have got a little carried away at a critical point where cooler heads may have been needed?

Maybe.

Was he playing well? Did he change the game for us?

He is the only manager in the world that would have subbed Gerrard that day.

Because he's lost it Big time

You really are a prat, aren't you?

Ever considered the possibility that what you've just said there PROVES Rafa is better than any other coach in the World, as he has the intelligence and bottle to make the big decisions?

Dear oh dear.