Liverpool FC Forum

[tel]

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.

We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.

And he got subbed.

Fk me.

We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.

The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.

So once again - his tactics can be wrong, but never right?

His subs can be wrong, but never right?

And his starting line-ups can be wrong, but never right?

Winning every competition going is all irrelevant as you think he's cost us points in the league, even though we've struggled with our "best" line-up on numerous occasions, despite them having a run?

Am I somewhere in the right area, here?

His tactics, subs and starting line ups, rotations policies and other Rafa trademarks are right often enough to give us a top 4 finish 20+points behind the top 2.

He is right enough often enough for us to be 3rd or 4th, but not often enough to get us challenging for the title.

I'd wildly speculate that most supporters want us to challenge for the title, not get it right often enough to finish 20 points off the leader, and scrapping with the likes of Man City for 4th spot.

Just a wild guess

[nobybob]

Spurs and Man City wouldn't last one round in the Champions League.

What a waste of a place that would be.


In fact, I don't think a single Prem team other than Liverpool should be allowed into the CL.

I dont think a single european team should be allowed in the CL other than LIVERPOOL lol
ok then maybe AC MILAN :

[tel]

Maybe he took off Gerrard because Gerrard, being an anti-Toffee run-over-hot-coals-for-Liverpool player, may have got a little carried away at a critical point where cooler heads may have been needed?

Maybe.

Was he playing well? Did he change the game for us?

He is the only manager in the world that would have subbed Gerrard that day.

Because he's lost it Big time

You really are a prat, aren't you?

Ever considered the possibility that what you've just said there PROVES Rafa is better than any other coach in the World, as he has the intelligence and bottle to make the big decisions?

Dear oh dear.

Too bad he didnt sub Gerrard in Instanbul because he was leaving loads of space in the first half which enabled Kaka to run riot. 

Best coach in the world that cant keep a title challenge running past xmas FFS 4 years in a row.

Every cup that Rafa has won was won single handedly off Steven Gerrard's boot, not Rafa's managerial superiority.

CL final and FA Cup final.

[ruskiy playmaker]

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.

We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.

And he got subbed.

Fk me.

We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.

The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.

So once again - his tactics can be wrong, but never right?

His subs can be wrong, but never right?

And his starting line-ups can be wrong, but never right?

Winning every competition going is all irrelevant as you think he's cost us points in the league, even though we've struggled with our "best" line-up on numerous occasions, despite them having a run?

Am I somewhere in the right area, here?

His tactics, subs and starting line ups, rotations policies and other Rafa trademarks are right often enough to give us a top 4 finish 20+points behind the top 2.

He is right enough often enough for us to be 3rd or 4th, but not often enough to get us challenging for the title.

I'd wildly speculate that most supporters want us to challenge for the title, not get it right often enough to finish 20 points off the leader, and scrapping with the likes of Man City for 4th spot.

Just a wild guess

Can anyone please tell me how we are suppose to seriously challenge for the title when Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal have much better funds and owner support than us?

[Lando_Griffin]

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... 

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it?

You can hardly hold up that game as proof of Rafa's capabilities to win games.

We were lucky to scrape through, they should have a penalty in the last minute, we werent even in the game in the 1st half until Gerrard single handedly burst forward, won the penalty and got that smarmy little gimp sent off in the process.

And he got subbed.

Fk me.

We just have to face that Rafa is not going to achieve with us what he achieved with Valencia.

The players are not playing with confidence, he's confused the hell out of them with his selections, rotations and substitutions, and there's only a slim chance he'll admit to being wrong. He has cost us points with his decisions (and a title challenge) through selecting the wrong players, not starting the right players, and persisting with the worst players.

So once again - his tactics can be wrong, but never right?

His subs can be wrong, but never right?

And his starting line-ups can be wrong, but never right?

Winning every competition going is all irrelevant as you think he's cost us points in the league, even though we've struggled with our "best" line-up on numerous occasions, despite them having a run?

Am I somewhere in the right area, here?

His tactics, subs and starting line ups, rotations policies and other Rafa trademarks are right often enough to give us a top 4 finish 20+points behind the top 2.

He is right enough often enough for us to be 3rd or 4th, but not often enough to get us challenging for the title.

I'd wildly speculate that most supporters want us to challenge for the title, not get it right often enough to finish 20 points off the leader, and scrapping with the likes of Man City for 4th spot.

Just a wild guess

And you think, given the same parameters, that someone else could do better?

Is that what you're saying?

The parameters being:

1. They cannot secure their first-choice targets, nor the 2nd, 3rd or 4th. They MUST make do with what's left, save for the odd one now and again.

2. They must be undermined by their bosses, both publicly and privately.

3. They must, at all times, play Steven Gerrard in the centre, despite him being a far better player out wide.

4. They must not deviate from the standard 4-4-2.

5. They must face a media campaign to hound them out of their job.

6. They can't alter their starting line-ups for any reason excluding death.

7. Fernando Torres must play every match, even when ill, unfit, or fatigued.

8. They must not make any unsuccessful signings. Particularly, they shouldn't buy a Dutch striker with a goalscoring record of 1 in 3 for 1/3 of what our rivals pay for a defender.

9. They shouldn't allow said Dutch striker to play himself back into form, as this is obviously a sign of favouritism and scullduggery on the manager's part.

10. They shouldn't, under any circumstances, choose a team that the armchair fans disagree with.


That about the size of it?

[JoeTerp]

Dont know were to ask this but does anyone know how the youth team got on tonight against Arsenal

Won 1:0

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N158638080129-1903.htm

And Arsenal had one of the strongest sides in the competition, I was very surprised that we won, not because I doubt this years talent, I actually think this group is more talented, just that the team was "due" for a loss in the cup and Arsenal are a very good side.  We didn't even play the likes of Pacheco or Bruna even though I am pretty sure they are under 18, Nemeth's buddy Andras Simon I think is also eligible to play but I have heard he has had injury problems since arriving, not sure what his deal is right now, however it would be hard for anybody to unseat Pourie, Eccelstone, or Amoo given their form

[Lando_Griffin]

Maybe he took off Gerrard because Gerrard, being an anti-Toffee run-over-hot-coals-for-Liverpool player, may have got a little carried away at a critical point where cooler heads may have been needed?

Maybe.

Was he playing well? Did he change the game for us?

He is the only manager in the world that would have subbed Gerrard that day.

Because he's lost it Big time

You really are a prat, aren't you?

Ever considered the possibility that what you've just said there PROVES Rafa is better than any other coach in the World, as he has the intelligence and bottle to make the big decisions?

Dear oh dear.

Too bad he didnt sub Gerrard in Instanbul because he was leaving loads of space in the first half which enabled Kaka to run riot. 

Best coach in the world that cant keep a title challenge running past xmas FFS 4 years in a row.

Every cup that Rafa has won was won single handedly off Steven Gerrard's boot, not Rafa's managerial superiority.

CL final and FA Cup final.

Now you're showing your stupidity.

Steven Gerrard, eh? I could have sworn Smicer and Alonso scored in Istanbul, too. And that we had to win on penalties. Did Gerrard take them all, then? Was he actually using a remote-control to aim the kicks?

Because I bet Riise was f*cking fuming at him, making him hit a pansy shot like that!

And the FA Cup - do you mean the game where Reina (a Benitez signing) made 3 saves in the penalty shootout? Was Gerrard at it again with that remote? Didn't Cisse also score for us that day?

It's sometimes better to be quiet when the alternative is to talk b*llocks.

[LittleHobo]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

[redtrader74]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

[LittleHobo]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

hes spent alot of money and we should progress this year (still alot of games to go we still could end doing ok this season)

if not i believe he should go

hes been here 4 years now so its not like newcastle or something.

by progress i dont just mean trophys i mean

1. style of football
2. performance agaisnt the rivals
3. challenging for the title
4. breaking down teams who come to anfield and just defend

[redtrader74]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

hes spent alot of money and we should progress this year (still alot of games to go we still could end doing ok this season)

if not i believe he should go

hes been here 4 years now so its not like newcastle or something.

by progress i dont just mean trophys i mean

1. style of football
2. performance agaisnt the rivals
3. challenging for the title
4. breaking down teams who come to anfield and just defend

You have decided that should we have a bad campaign this year that Rafa should go. ONE BAD YEAR......He will not be the first or last manager to have a poor year (in any of the disciplines you noted) part way through their tenure, it has happened to ALL top managers.

Thats why its nonsense.

[LittleHobo]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

hes spent alot of money and we should progress this year (still alot of games to go we still could end doing ok this season)

if not i believe he should go

hes been here 4 years now so its not like newcastle or something.

by progress i dont just mean trophys i mean

1. style of football
2. performance agaisnt the rivals
3. challenging for the title
4. breaking down teams who come to anfield and just defend

You have decided that should we have a bad campaign this year that Rafa should go. ONE BAD YEAR......He will not be the first or last manager to have a poor year (in any of the disciplines you noted) part way through their tenure, it has happened to ALL top managers.

Thats why its nonsense.

lasts years trophyless season without a title challenge wasnt so good either

[account deleted by request]

rafa should stay if we are progressing

i will wait till the end of the season to judge whether or not we have progressed over the past year

if we have gone backwards since last year then he must go in my view.

So one bad year and the manager is out.

NONSENSE

Maybe the one bad year and out bit is wrong, but the idea of whether we have progressed or not under Rafa is a sound arguement.

We were a good cup side that struggled to make the top 4 every season before Rafa. We are a good cup side now thats struggling to make the top 4 under Rafa. We had a brief period
of finishing third while Arsenal rebuilt, now we are back to fighting for 4th.

We certainly need to see more progress that we have done up to now, unless we are going to accept that we can never  again challenge for the title, and that we are just a cup team.

For all Lando's pontification thats all we have been under Rafa...... a good cup side. Maybe thats the limits of our ambitions now, I just hope not.

I certainly think our team is better than that, and certainly better than our current position and if Rafa can't get the team to start to play to its potential maybe someone else can.

One should seriously start to ask questions when we are fighting with the likes of Everton, Villa and Man City for position (ALL WHO HAVE SPENT CONSIDERABLY LESS THAN US ) rather than competing with the big 3.

But we shouldn't question Rafa because Rafa loves Liverpool. What a load of boll0cks. Does he love Liverpool any more than Evans or Thompson or all the kids that every season we move on because they are not good enough? Maybe we should just pick the team on who loves Liverpool the most?

Maybe I could play striker then 

Rafa has to shape up or ship out, and if he cant deliver we have to look elsewhere. I hope he shapes up gets us playing to our potential and we can put all this cr@p behind us, but if he can't he's gotta go. We need to see more evidence of actual progress.

[puroresu]

I think rafa should go.  If we dont finish 4th I dont even think its up 4 debate.

[LittleHobo]

I think rafa should go.  If we dont finish 4th I dont even think its up 4 debate.

its not what the pro rafa people on here will say

they will support him if we finish 5th or 6th and do nothing in the cups 

they reckon every manager has a bad year