Liverpool FC Forum

[mattylfc]

:D Jeez Lando you had me there. I thought he'd done an interiew where he undertook to finally learn some lessons over the last four years in the League. I had visions of him saying he was going to attempt to find a settled team and pattern, and to drop the idea of building two teams rather than one. I figured he might shelve the idea of playing Kuyt over crouch, and pledge to cut out the random formation switches. You fooled me there I gotta tell you

I just don't understand this obsession with the league. There are bigger and better things out there.

If you dont understand peoples obsession with the domestic league then i think you will struggle to understand most things to be honest.

[Igor Zidane]

Ok here's a little question for you. Speaking hypothetically , if we won the champions league this year ,but finished 5th say . Should rafa be sacked because we were never in he running for the league after christmas. If the leagues the bee all and end all now , because we've won the cl under rafa and got to another final(people seem to forget what a great achievement that was because we lost , but never mind ,) surely rafa should be sacked for not bringing success to the club in the right competition. Surley rafa is a faliure because hypothetically speaking we would have won 2 cl in 4 years and got to the final in the other ,oh and won the fa cup in the other year.

[zarababe]

I just don't understand this obsession with the league. There are bigger and better things out there.

Well if we're not interested in ever mounting a League title challenge, but want to make sure we have a good chance of Champions league success (as long as we qualify of course), then there is no better man for the job than Rafa.

You could even argue that his methods (particularly rotation) make success in the Champions League even more likely, as it renders our domestic title challenge null and void very early in the campaign and allows him to nurse players through the season to give us the best chance of success in the European arena.

Just a bit of a worry that you have to get in the top four to get in the thing though. I suppose if we win it this season like we did in his first, it won't matter if we finish fifth again like we did that year because they'll let us in it anyway.

the first four get in to the CL that is the rule - the rest is about being patient - the league will come but we'll have to wait for it and Rafa will deliver it, he has done it before and will do it for us too.

I agree with Lando - the league I would like but the rest I like too, there are only 3 domestic trophies to win and 1 in Europe the biggest prize in club football - we've won 2/4  bloomin brill considering Ar.se have not won anything during that period - don't see them baying for their managers blood.

This place is unbelievable - we don't deserve to win the league beacuse of this level of ungratefulness !

All of you know better - that;'s why your doing what you are and Rafa is doing whta he is 

[Lando_Griffin]

:D Jeez Lando you had me there. I thought he'd done an interiew where he undertook to finally learn some lessons over the last four years in the League. I had visions of him saying he was going to attempt to find a settled team and pattern, and to drop the idea of building two teams rather than one. I figured he might shelve the idea of playing Kuyt over crouch, and pledge to cut out the random formation switches. You fooled me there I gotta tell you

I just don't understand this obsession with the league. There are bigger and better things out there.

If you dont understand peoples obsession with the domestic league then i think you will struggle to understand most things to be honest.

That is a very childish answer. You have no conception whatsoever regarding my intelligence.

I'll tell you something:

Had Shankly not said the league was our bread and butter, a lot of this hysteria regarding the league would not have materialised.

And I prefer a main meal to a side-order, anyway.

[bigmick]

But you can hardly be realistically considered the Champions of Europe when you haven't won a domestic title in almost a generation. Equally, although the Champions League success of three seasons ago was a remarkable one, I don't personally think that it alone was a gaurantee that we would stick with Rafa ad infinitum.

People talk of the Champions league being the bigger competition lets face it simply because we are currently still in it and have enjoyed some recent success in it. There is also an assumption which I find a bit odd that we are going to serenly progress through this years competition playing like we currently are. We have lets be perfectly honest here, got a very tricky draw against a very good Inter Milan team and it would be no surprise at all given our recent efforts if we were to perish in this the first knockout stage.

No doubt we will beat Barnsley at home in the FA Cup, and who knows we may prevail in that competition by beating one of the top four teams along the way like we did a couple of years back. Hopefully if it does come to that, it won't need a thirty five yarder from the captain  with 30 seconds remaining on the clock to keep us in the game. Whatever and whichever, if we do win the FA Cup no doubt at this stage next season we'llbe going on about the fact that it's the most important competition of all, given its got the most history etc etc.

I can't help thinking with Rafa that people are at times more concerned about not conceding the fact that they called it wrong visa vis the managers methods than they are honestly looking at his record. I repeat for the thousanth time, if we show signs of learning from our mistakes, I'm all for him staying. If we continue, over and over and over again to do the same things wrong, then lets get somebody else.

[Sabre]

FFS Lando, I needed a thread like this one. Thank you mate.

[Ciggy]

Rafa is out of our hands now, like the club is.

He cant stay under Hicks & G, he will go in the summer if they are still incharge, if we go out the CL they will sack him, if we dont qualify for the CL they will sack him.

The man cannot continue to work for employers who are looking to replace him.

He can walk and still get his payoff due to them admitting they spoke to another manager about his job, his wife is a lawyer she will have sussed what rights he has.

The managers union has been intouch with him.
If I was him I wouldnt stay either the way he has been treated, plus he will have feck all to spend in the summer anyway.

[Lando_Griffin]

But you can hardly be realistically considered the Champions of Europe when you haven't won a domestic title in almost a generation. Equally, although the Champions League success of three seasons ago was a remarkable one, I don't personally think that it alone was a gaurantee that we would stick with Rafa ad infinitum.

People talk of the Champions league being the bigger competition lets face it simply because we are currently still in it and have enjoyed some recent success in it. There is also an assumption which I find a bit odd that we are going to serenly progress through this years competition playing like we currently are. We have lets be perfectly honest here, got a very tricky draw against a very good Inter Milan team and it would be no surprise at all given our recent efforts if we were to perish in this the first knockout stage.

No doubt we will beat Barnsley at home in the FA Cup, and who knows we may prevail in that competition by beating one of the top four teams along the way like we did a couple of years back. Hopefully if it does come to that, it won't need a thirty five yarder from the captain  with 30 seconds remaining on the clock to keep us in the game. Whatever and whichever, if we do win the FA Cup no doubt at this stage next season we'llbe going on about the fact that it's the most important competition of all, given its got the most history etc etc.

I can't help thinking with Rafa that people are at times more concerned about not conceding the fact that they called it wrong visa vis the managers methods than they are honestly looking at his record. I repeat for the thousanth time, if we show signs of learning from our mistakes, I'm all for him staying. If we continue, over and over and over again to do the same things wrong, then lets get somebody else.

So then - what you're basically saying is; "you don't understand or agree with the rotation methods favoured by Rafa, so they are wrong."

Don't you think that might be a little daft, considering Rafa is a multi-millionaire on the back of his "selectorial silliness/rotational lunacy/senseless stubborness", and you've never managed a pro team in your life?

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it? That some other, lesser boss like Moris would automatically be better, despite failing to outwit the gaffer in Europe with said resources?
And then us "happy clappers" have to sit and listen whilst these astoundingly obvious reasons for Rafa's "failure" are rubbished as "just lame excuses", whilst the doom-mongers' constant sniping and blaming of rotation and Rafa's stubborn streak are heralded as concrete proof.

It's f*cking obscene.

[Kash_Mountain]

Rafa is out of our hands now, like the club is.

He cant stay under Hicks & G, he will go in the summer if they are still incharge, if we go out the CL they will sack him, if we dont qualify for the CL they will sack him.

The man cannot continue to work for employers who are looking to replace him.

He can walk and still get his payoff due to them admitting they spoke to another manager about his job, his wife is a lawyer she will have sussed what rights he has.

The managers union has been intouch with him.
If I was him I wouldnt stay either the way he has been treated, plus he will have feck all to spend in the summer anyway.

Sick to the back teeth with these two (more so with Hicks), Gillette  seems to be the better one!!!

It's just to despressing.  Something has to be done NOW, but what (maybe mass protest, don't attend the games), is the 64mil pound question. 

I don't see anyone beteer then Rafa at the moment.  If he was to leave, we're back at square one. Complete rebuild with a new manager and more waiting for the EPL title.  This cannot happen. F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K.

[Igor Zidane]

Ok here's a little question for you. Speaking hypothetically , if we won the champions league this year ,but finished 5th say . Should rafa be sacked because we were never in he running for the league after christmas. If the leagues the bee all and end all now , because we've won the cl under rafa and got to another final(people seem to forget what a great achievement that was because we lost , but never mind ,) surely rafa should be sacked for not bringing success to the club in the right competition. Surley rafa is a faliure because hypothetically speaking we would have won 2 cl in 4 years and got to the final in the other ,oh and won the fa cup in the other year.

No answers yet , i am suprised.

[Number 9]

Rafa is out of our hands now, like the club is.

He cant stay under Hicks & G, he will go in the summer if they are still incharge, if we go out the CL they will sack him, if we dont qualify for the CL they will sack him.

The man cannot continue to work for employers who are looking to replace him.

He can walk and still get his payoff due to them admitting they spoke to another manager about his job, his wife is a lawyer she will have sussed what rights he has.

The managers union has been intouch with him.
If I was him I wouldnt stay either the way he has been treated, plus he will have feck all to spend in the summer anyway.

Sick to the back teeth with these two (more so with Hicks), Gillette  seems to be the better one!!!

It's just to despressing.  Something has to be done NOW, but what (maybe mass protest, don't attend the games), is the 64mil pound question. 

I don't see anyone beteer then Rafa at the moment.  If he was to leave, we're back at square one. Complete rebuild with a new manager and more waiting for the EPL title.  This cannot happen. F**K F**K F**K F**K F**K.

Make no mistake mate,G&H are as bad as eachother..thick as thieves,have no doubt.

Hicks knows all to well the fans hate his lying scheming guts.Just because Gilette is staying quiet at the minute does not mean he is any better.

Maybe there is a reason for him saying nothing.They know we have sussed them out,if G says nothing that may just endear him to the fans a litlle more,See past it!..........Dont fall for it.They are in it together.

To think one is any better than the other is a major misjudgement in my opinion.

[bigmick]

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

[bigmick]

Ok here's a little question for you. Speaking hypothetically , if we won the champions league this year ,but finished 5th say . Should rafa be sacked because we were never in he running for the league after christmas. If the leagues the bee all and end all now , because we've won the cl under rafa and got to another final(people seem to forget what a great achievement that was because we lost , but never mind ,) surely rafa should be sacked for not bringing success to the club in the right competition. Surley rafa is a faliure because hypothetically speaking we would have won 2 cl in 4 years and got to the final in the other ,oh and won the fa cup in the other year.

No answers yet , i am suprised.

Sorry Igor, got sidetracked mate. It all depends doesn't it? If we win the Champions League and finish fifth, I would look for a new manager as I would like to see us win the League again which in my opinion we won't ever have the chance to do while Rafa is the manager. Some would no doubt feel that another Champions League success would give the manager at least another year and perhaps more. It really depends on what you want.

If you aren't interested in the League and want somebody to try and rack up as many Champions League wins as possible then it really ios pointless getting rid of the current mananger in my opinion. I'd probably in that case though still advocate getting an assistant in to help him try and get us into fourth every season so we actually qualify.

All that said though, hand on heart I don't expect we'll win the Champions League this season anyway which would render the whole thing achedemic. I gues the follow up questiuon is what if Inter knock us out in this round, but we finsih fourth and win the FA Cup, what then? Lets face it, if we carry on getting the draws we are currently enjoying we must have a good chance.

[NANNY RED]

Ok here's a little question for you. Speaking hypothetically , if we won the champions league this year ,but finished 5th say . Should rafa be sacked because we were never in he running for the league after christmas. If the leagues the bee all and end all now , because we've won the cl under rafa and got to another final(people seem to forget what a great achievement that was because we lost , but never mind ,) surely rafa should be sacked for not bringing success to the club in the right competition. Surley rafa is a faliure because hypothetically speaking we would have won 2 cl in 4 years and got to the final in the other ,oh and won the fa cup in the other year.

No answers yet , i am suprised.

Ill answer yer Igor as a glory hunter for 40 years hed be a genius lad
Watch come the end of the season if were in another final how many people will be changing there views again.

Do yer remember when The drunk failed to win the prem for about 4 seasons from about 2002 i think you had some fans sayin hes not good enough anymore but then they started spendin well them fans must be choking now . Rafa has been here 4 seasons and hes put a smile back on my face anyway

[account deleted by request]

I just think that instead of the emotive "should Rafa go " or "should Rafa stay" threads, the question should be "would you offer Rafa another 5 year contract?"

To answer my own question.......no, not at this moment in time. We need to see some significant progress before he gets a new contract.