Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:12 pm

NANNY RED wrote:Rafa has been here 4 seasons and hes put a smile back on my face anyway

And there was me thinking it was Bamaga man

by **Sabre** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:19 pm

I think Liverpool fans have been waiting too long for the league. The CL finals, rather than calming the fans, feed their impatience as that means the team is strong and thus, should be competing for the english title.

I just wonder why we have forgotten why Rafa was given a 5 year contract. It was a 5 year contract because it was a long process that should lead us to win us the league again.

When there's 2 year left for that end of contract, people have grown impatient and are asking to sack Rafa. Why? IMHO it's because that mentioned long wait and that expectation boosting CL finals. But we shouldn't be beaten by the impatience and we should give Rafa the time we signed a few years back. This is the first year Rafa says we've goot a deep enough squad. Give him the time and give him the support at least for this contract, and evaluate then where his progress is with all honesty. But let him end the project he signed up for.

by **NANNY RED** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:21 pm

Sabre wrote:I think Liverpool fans have been waiting too long for the league. The CL finals, rather than calming the fans, feed their impatience as that means the team is strong and thus, should be competing for the english title.

I just wonder why we have forgotten why Rafa was given a 5 year contract. It was a 5 year contract because it was a long process that should lead us to win us the league again.

When there's 2 year left for that end of contract, people have grown impatient and are asking to sack Rafa. Why? IMHO it's because that mentioned long wait and that expectation boosting CL finals. But we shouldn't be beaten by the impatience and we should give Rafa the time we signed a few years back. This is the first year Rafa says we've goot a deep enough squad. Give him the time and give him the support at least for this contract, and evaluate then where his progress is with all honesty. But let him end the project he signed up for.

Great shout Sabre

Dont know were to ask this but does anyone know how the youth team got on tonight against Arsenal

by **redtrader74** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:27 pm

The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons.

Mick surely you the ever realist didn't for a second really expect a challenge for the title in year one and two of Rafas tenure?

If we remember back, our Skipper and a certain European footballer of the year were on their way out of the Club such was our disarray and their disillusionment. Isn't it fair to say that this was the first year that we could say Rafa had his squad ? Year 3 we did ok, and even you have accepted somewhere along the line that we coasted in the last 8-10 fixtures to ensure the best preparation for the CL final and semi.

For me the first 2-3 seasons were about Rafa building a squad and ethos with a relatively modest budget (relative to the head start our main competitors had on us, and what price/ value the time served by Wenger?). I cannot understand why this is not understood.

Winning the League, even competing, is not easy, the jump from also rans to true contenders is huge, and yet some expect us to have achieved that during any one of the first 3 years, and the 'happy clappies' are told they're not realists

This year is IMO the real dissappointment in regard to the League, this was the year we looked best prepared for a real assault. It hasn't worked, but i will allow Rafa one bad year, because should we not win a Cup, this will be his first season of failure.

Ignoring the FACT that his employers have shit on him from a great height, (apparently you lot would still perform well at your jobs whilst knowing full well that your boss is trying to replace you and undermines the authority that you have built up), he is still a winner and deserves another year, and maybe till the end of his contract.

BTW nobody has advocated giving Rafa a job for life for winning the CL etc. etc. but it should certainly have earned him some time and respect.

by **LFC2007** » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:44 pm

^^^^Sums up my views pretty well^^^^

by **red37** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:47 am

NANNY RED wrote:Dont know were to ask this but does anyone know how the youth team got on tonight against Arsenal

Won 1:0

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drilldown/N158638080129-1903.htm

by **Rush Job** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:00 am

redtrader74 wrote:
The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons.

Mick surely you the ever realist didn't for a second really expect a challenge for the title in year one and two of Rafas tenure?

If we remember back, our Skipper and a certain European footballer of the year were on their way out of the Club such was our disarray and their disillusionment. Isn't it fair to say that this was the first year that we could say Rafa had his squad ? Year 3 we did ok, and even you have accepted somewhere along the line that we coasted in the last 8-10 fixtures to ensure the best preparation for the CL final and semi.

For me the first 2-3 seasons were about Rafa building a squad and ethos with a relatively modest budget (relative to the head start our main competitors had on us, and what price/ value the time served by Wenger?). I cannot understand why this is not understood.

Winning the League, even competing, is not easy, the jump from also rans to true contenders is huge, and yet some expect us to have achieved that during any one of the first 3 years, and the 'happy clappies' are told they're not realists

This year is IMO the real dissappointment in regard to the League, this was the year we looked best prepared for a real assault. It hasn't worked, but i will allow Rafa one bad year, because should we not win a Cup, this will be his first season of failure.

Ignoring the FACT that his employers have shit on him from a great height, (apparently you lot would still perform well at your jobs whilst knowing full well that your boss is trying to replace you and undermines the authority that you have built up), he is still a winner and deserves another year, and maybe till the end of his contract.

BTW nobody has advocated giving Rafa a job for life for winning the CL etc. etc. but it should certainly have earned him some time and respect.

Well in lad, Sabre's post also. Good stuff. :nod

by **nobybob** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:16 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:But you can hardly be realistically considered the Champions of Europe when you haven't won a domestic title in almost a generation. Equally, although the Champions League success of three seasons ago was a remarkable one, I don't personally think that it alone was a gaurantee that we would stick with Rafa ad infinitum.

People talk of the Champions league being the bigger competition lets face it simply because we are currently still in it and have enjoyed some recent success in it. There is also an assumption which I find a bit odd that we are going to serenly progress through this years competition playing like we currently are. We have lets be perfectly honest here, got a very tricky draw against a very good Inter Milan team and it would be no surprise at all given our recent efforts if we were to perish in this the first knockout stage.

No doubt we will beat Barnsley at home in the FA Cup, and who knows we may prevail in that competition by beating one of the top four teams along the way like we did a couple of years back. Hopefully if it does come to that, it won't need a thirty five yarder from the captain with 30 seconds remaining on the clock to keep us in the game. Whatever and whichever, if we do win the FA Cup no doubt at this stage next season we'llbe going on about the fact that it's the most important competition of all, given its got the most history etc etc.

I can't help thinking with Rafa that people are at times more concerned about not conceding the fact that they called it wrong visa vis the managers methods than they are honestly looking at his record. I repeat for the thousanth time, if we show signs of learning from our mistakes, I'm all for him staying. If we continue, over and over and over again to do the same things wrong, then lets get somebody else.

So then - what you're basically saying is; "you don't understand or agree with the rotation methods favoured by Rafa, so they are wrong."

Don't you think that might be a little daft, considering Rafa is a multi-millionaire on the back of his "selectorial silliness/rotational lunacy/senseless stubborness", and you've never managed a pro team in your life?

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it? That some other, lesser boss like Moris would automatically be better, despite failing to outwit the gaffer in Europe with said resources?
And then us "happy clappers" have to sit and listen whilst these astoundingly obvious reasons for Rafa's "failure" are rubbished as "just lame excuses", whilst the doom-mongers' constant sniping and blaming of rotation and Rafa's stubborn streak are heralded as concrete proof.

It's f*cking obscene.

This man( LANDO) is one of the few here who sees the big picture and says it like it is. HE shares the same views as me on many issues i just wish i was as good at putting them into words as him . Ah well you cant have everything i suppose, so I'm probably taller, darker, and handsomer-- swings and roundabouts as they say. :laugh:

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:06 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:12 am

nobybob wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:But you can hardly be realistically considered the Champions of Europe when you haven't won a domestic title in almost a generation. Equally, although the Champions League success of three seasons ago was a remarkable one, I don't personally think that it alone was a gaurantee that we would stick with Rafa ad infinitum.

People talk of the Champions league being the bigger competition lets face it simply because we are currently still in it and have enjoyed some recent success in it. There is also an assumption which I find a bit odd that we are going to serenly progress through this years competition playing like we currently are. We have lets be perfectly honest here, got a very tricky draw against a very good Inter Milan team and it would be no surprise at all given our recent efforts if we were to perish in this the first knockout stage.

No doubt we will beat Barnsley at home in the FA Cup, and who knows we may prevail in that competition by beating one of the top four teams along the way like we did a couple of years back. Hopefully if it does come to that, it won't need a thirty five yarder from the captain with 30 seconds remaining on the clock to keep us in the game. Whatever and whichever, if we do win the FA Cup no doubt at this stage next season we'llbe going on about the fact that it's the most important competition of all, given its got the most history etc etc.

I can't help thinking with Rafa that people are at times more concerned about not conceding the fact that they called it wrong visa vis the managers methods than they are honestly looking at his record. I repeat for the thousanth time, if we show signs of learning from our mistakes, I'm all for him staying. If we continue, over and over and over again to do the same things wrong, then lets get somebody else.

So then - what you're basically saying is; "you don't understand or agree with the rotation methods favoured by Rafa, so they are wrong."

Don't you think that might be a little daft, considering Rafa is a multi-millionaire on the back of his "selectorial silliness/rotational lunacy/senseless stubborness", and you've never managed a pro team in your life?

You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it? That some other, lesser boss like Moris would automatically be better, despite failing to outwit the gaffer in Europe with said resources?
And then us "happy clappers" have to sit and listen whilst these astoundingly obvious reasons for Rafa's "failure" are rubbished as "just lame excuses", whilst the doom-mongers' constant sniping and blaming of rotation and Rafa's stubborn streak are heralded as concrete proof.

It's f*cking obscene.

This man( LANDO) is one of the few here who sees the big picture and says it like it is. HE shares the same views as me on many issues i just wish i was as good at putting them into words as him . Ah well you cant have everything i suppose, so I'm probably taller, darker, and handsomer-- swings and roundabouts as they say.

Dream on lad.

by **tel** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:57 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

by **LFC2007** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 3:22 am

tel wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately

Give Rafa the benefit of the doubt, he subbed Gerrard in the Everton game because he felt that his eagerness to go forward at every opportunity might have cost us a goal, and at that point we were still in the title race. My interpretation of that comment is that he used the word 'passion' to describe Gerrard's urge to go forward all the time, and that this passion may have overrided rational thought. Lucas came on and provided a bit of composure and pattern to our play, we actually played quite well and in the end scored. It's not necessarily what I'd have done, but it paid off.
My point anyway: Don't take his explanations too literally.

Of course he wants all his players to play with passion, but when he made that comment it's my view that he was referring to the risk of playing without clear thought and composure. Passion can cloud logic.

Whether you agree with the decision to sub him is besides the point, he shouldn't be criticised for a comment which can quite reasonably be explained in exclusivity from its literal value. You could make a lot of his comments sound absurd if you took everything he says in its literal meaning.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:02 am

tel wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:You see, this is the thing I don't get. We've got a bunch of people with absolutely no professional experience thinking they know more than someone who has consistently proved themselves to be a winner. Just because he's not managed to win 1 competition against the 2 richest teams in footballing history, who have had resources beyond our wildest dreams since before Rafa arrived at Liverpool, he's obviously not good enough. Is that the gist of it?

The bit about never having managed a pro team in my life is a silly response Lando and you know it. If that were the criteria for offering a view on a forum, forums wouldn't exist, managers would never ever lose their jobs and nobody would ever have an opinion. To discredit somebodies view on the grounds that the bloke they are criticising has coaching badges, more experience managing football teams than the criticiser etc etc is a weak position to fall back on. I'll leave that there although I am bound to say you are capable of much better than that.

On the "is that the gist of it?" bit, no it isn't the gist of it is the answer, not at all. The point is not surely that we haven't managed to win the title under Rafa as we never managed to win previously for many years either, the point is we have never even managed to challenge for it. Not for an instant, ever under his tenure have we managed to be in the hunt. In four seasons. Now it seems to me that if we can't agree on whcih is the most important competition, at least we would hopefully agree on the notion that the team ought to be progressing and be competitive.

The simple fact of the matter is though that we are neither. Now I know you are of the opinion that not only is our plight not anything at all to do with the way the manager selects his team, coaches the team, buys players, motivates players or anything else (in fact I think I'm right in saying it's nothing at all to do with any aspect of Rafa's management when we don't do well) in my opinion it is.

In my opinion we are entitled to expect the team to finish closer than 15-21 points behind the champions every season. I think those expectations are realistic, and I think with a different approach they are achieveable. You don't think a different approach would make any difference whatsoever presumeably, even if the incumbent had managed a professional football team, won titles in a couple of countries and won the Champiuons League before. That, is the gist of it.

Exactly Mick - it's your OPINION. Just because you don't agree with Rafa, you automatically believe his way to be wrong.

And as for your assessment that I can "do better" - what is the point? Why should I bother to use straightforward facts, when you simply belittle them as "rubbish"?

As Red Trader said - would YOU work to your capabilities if you were being undermined by your bosses? If, despite having devoted the last 4 years of your life to a project you absolutely loved, you found yourself totally isolated by a pair of foreign gimps whom you couldn't even have a face-to-face chat with?

If, upon their arrival, you found that half your job had been given to some incompetent, fuzzy-haired backstabber who couldn't even be a*sed to pass on your messages?

I don't f*c king think so. Not on your nelly, my friend.

Furthermore, all this sh*t about us never having challenged, blah, blah, blah - I think you'll find that- first season and it's ridiculous injuries aside - we finished 3rd both seasons, funnily enough, behind said richest clubs. (And above the oh-so-perfect-his-a*se-is-never-without-a-tongue-in-it Wenger's Arsenal.)
This, when last season - by your own admission - we strolled through the last 10 games so as to give ourselves a better chance of Champions' League glory. (A plan which resulted in us utterly dominating AC Milan, only for 2 flukey goals to deny us.)

So whilst you consider that we never challenged for the league - I see that we finished where our budget dictated.

You cant possibly be happy with how we've performed in the league this season, or many of the decisions Rafa has made such as:

persisting with Kuyt
subbing Gerrard because he is playing too passionately
not starting Torres due to his rotation policy
Reading, Birmingham, Wigan

We were out of the running by xmas. That is just not good enough and if any of us thought Rafa would learn from his mistakes, we wouldnt be shouting for a change. Most of us expect him to stick to his guns next season which is why a change must be considered.

Arsenal have spent less money than us this season, lost one of their best ever players, and yet are playing some of the best football they've ever played. Most of that is due to a manager that knows how to compete on less resources against the Chelseas and Utds. Rafa has yet to convince that he has learnt anything in 4 years, or if he has, is big enough to acknowledge it

So what you're saying is, "he's damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't"?

YOU didn't agree with the subbing of Gerrard (even though it paid off and his replacement directly contributed to us winning the match by gaining the penalty), so it MUST be wrong? (A penalty, coincidentally, scored by Kuyt, to go with his earlier one...)

What you're essentially getting at here is "Rafa can't make good decisions - it was a fluke that just happened to pay off".

Now I see your logic:
"We can LOSE due to Rafa's decisions, but if we WIN, it's nothing to do with him and all down to the players."

Well now - and you wonder WHY I think all the Rafa-bashers are cretinous vermin... :idea

And I suppose that Rafa selecting Torres for just about every game since those you mention isn't a sign of his "learning" from his mistakes? No - of course not.

It's just more selectorial silliness from a man who knows f*ck all, isn't it? :no

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:16 am

bigmick wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:I just don't understand this obsession with the league. There are bigger and better things out there.

Well if we're not interested in ever mounting a League title challenge, but want to make sure we have a good chance of Champions league success (as long as we qualify of course), then there is no better man for the job than Rafa.

have to say i agree with mick , if u want a cup manager then the best has to be rafa , particularly in the champions league

by **Toffeehater** » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:17 am

bigmick wrote:If we manage to overcome Barnsley at home in the fifth round of the FA Cup, we will be in the quarter finals. Should we perish at that stage, will the fact we got to the quarters be held up as an achievement when we discuss the season subsequently, or will our draw of Luton, Waterlooville and then Barnsley be taken into consideration?

most likely the draw

, and this time so far we have really had the luck of the draw

Liverpool FC Forum

This is why rafa should stay.

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