Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:37 am

peewee wrote:why should he mention liverpool in europe when talking about arsenal, this i dont understand, do we now have to mention liverpool in every post, when we talk about other clubs do we have to compare them to liverpool or risk being labeled odd.

pureso is a decent poster, i have seen him praise liverpool many times, i have also seen him criticise with some justification. i have also seen him be mature enough to give praise to other teams when that praise is due, fair play to the lad.

i would trust his posts ad knowledge more than someone who blindly praises everything 'liverpool' while totally missing how poor we have been, at least his arguments are balanced. (this is not really aimed at you LFC2007 as i do agree you can be balanced in your football views, but you need to remember so can others)

I'm not referring specifically to the posts he made in this thread. I'm generally referring to his approach in his posts. He always praises the other side, and rarely finds a sentence to praise us even if there have been some glaring positives to take.

Ultimately it may just be that he genuinely feels there were no positives to take from a certain game, however, I find it unlikely that in games where we've played well, for there not to be positives that he could at least acknowledge.

I find his attitude strange, I'm not saying he's categorically incorrect. It's just my opinion.

Anyway, I think enough's been said on this one. I'll leave it there.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:38 am

Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

And so are other people and other people voice there opinions on here and other people point out why we are failing by comparing our club to the ones above us. The only way to see us improving, where we have gone wrong and where we have been strong is by comparing us to the top teams.

Contradiction at its best I think.

No, it's not a contradiction at all when those who praise Arsenal unremittingly apply no link or connection with Liverpool FC and how it relates to us.

I'm not referring to brief praise of Arsenal, I'm referring to the constant remarks about how great they are and not tying it in with anything that is forward looking relating to LFC.

But the way Arsenal are playing is simple and effective. Pass and move. Remember LFC released a song of the same name. Maybe its just heartbreaking seeing another team playing Liverpools famous style better than what we are.

Possibly.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:45 am

This idea of Sabes that Wengers squad management philosophy is "stuck in the nineties" is an interesting one. In absolute fairness to Sabes he has never accused the anti-rotationalist camp of being way behind the times, harping back to a bygone era etc etc but some have.

It is brave and refreshing that one of the most respected (by me anyhow) members of the "Pro rotation Rafa style" brigade, (because please bear in mind that Wenger is by no means anti-rotaton, just not on anything like the same scale as our manager) is coming out and making it clear where he stands. It's not about coaching badges or lack thereof, it's about a belief in a system which no other manager in the Premier League buys into.

Presumeably Wenger has a coaching badge or two, and if he is stuck in the nineties then I guess Ferguson must be as well. At least if I am wrong about the whole thing then I'm in good company this time

Just one last question, is Sundays game too early to see Arsenal suffering from the accumulative effects of their lack of rotation when compared to our more enthusiastic adherance to the theory, or will we have to wait till after Christmas before our obvious advantage in terms of freshness and stuff kick in?

by **red37** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:27 pm

bigmick wrote:Just one last question, is Sundays game too early to see Arsenal suffering from the accumulative effects of their lack of rotation.

I doubt that. A lot of people seem to be under the optomistic illusion that the bubble will burst on Arsenals very strong start...why should it? Wenger has an admirable track record of regenerating a fresh squad on at least two, maybe three occasions in the time he has been in England and he tends to handle their progression sensibly. I see no posible reason why they would implode, other than unforseen circumstances - or the loss of key personnel for one purpose or another...it can happpen, but they look pretty much set fair for at least a top two finish come May.

It won't be made easy for them on Sunday, but i'm far more apprehensive about this game than facing any other side in the League presently, even accounting for the advantage of home turf. A draw wouldn't exactly be a disaster put it that way...

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:54 pm

I think if we are going to really challenge for the league this season we have to start taking 4 points off our rivals. I would prefer to try to get those points with a win at Anfield and a draw away, rather than trying to beat these top sides away after failing to win at Anfield. We have already dropped too many points at home this season, its time we started to make up for that with a few good wins against good opposition.

Drawing with Arsenal wouldn't be a disaster, but would be another nail in our title challenging coffin.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:08 pm

I haven't got an idea whether I'll get this right, or wrong, if I was, we all could go to bet and win and bet all our savings, nobody knows the future.

I said the anchored in the nineties on purpose. A respected member mentioned recently that too many people sits in the fence. And I truly don't, because I've seen both of the approaches, and I trust more the Rafaish one.

So fair play to bigmick for making clear his stance, he has done from the very beginning, when we won 6-0 aswell. I hoped that by putting the cards ON the table (not over the table as I've been saying before a kind poster corrected me

) more of us would put their stance!

Others like S@int, also from the very beginning, have a milder approach, they believe in rotation to an extent. Bad Bob can also fit in this Saint's category, believe in rotation, but have natural doubts about some decissions.

But bar a minority of posters I didn't truly see clear stances, I see far too many people saying rotation doesn't work when we lose, and when we started well they said "when you change quality for quality there's no problem". So I made an impact phrase like anchor in the nineties so that everybody put the cards on the table.

So, the last question of Bigmick

Just one last question, is Sundays game too early to see Arsenal suffering from the accumulative effects of their lack of rotation when compared to our more enthusiastic adherance to the theory, or will we have to wait till after Christmas before our obvious advantage in terms of freshness and stuff kick in?

As I've said, I think Rafa's rotation is a better method IMHO. And since it's a better method, it has pros both at short term, and long term. It's too early to see the accumulated fatigue over a season, the kind of fatigue that makes a player need a summer hollidays. But if Arsenal played the same starting eleven in Sunday and Wednesday, and they repeat or just change one player against us, yes, I think more of our starting eleven will be at 100% than their starting eleven and that will be a plus for us. (I don't like the fact we play on Wednesday and they played yesterday, BTW)

But that doesn't mean that we'll win (which I hope) Momentum, confidence, tactics , decissions and even luck will decide the match aswell.

IF WE WIN, it WILL BE TOO EARLY TO SAY ASWELL "Rotation works", I won't say that until the end of the season. But since I trust the system, and I know every team has a blip, I say it now, at the risk of being remembered so at the end of the season. It's my belief.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:17 pm

And a notion I'd like to discuss and clarify, is that probably Rafa likes to "rotate" less than what you think. He rotates when he finds necessary.

The problem is, that he also is a defender of another approach to football. He believes in his players, and he believes in putting a squad that makes most harm. So, out of the changes, too many changes for some, that we see, a good amount of them are not rotations as such, it's simply using the best player he sees fit.

When he hasn't other options, he doesn't rotate. Remember Arbeloa at the start of the season. I just wanted to clarify, that not all the changes you see are "rests" as such, many of them are tactical decissions. He doesn't believe IMHO in the notion that if you stick, say, with Gerrard and Mascherano, or Alonso and Gerrard, he should stick to that couple because with time they'll get better. Rather, he'll think that for some games one combination is better than another. So only an amount of changes are due to rest. You may I agree this or not, but it was important for me to clarify that not everything is rest.

Addendum: I've been talking with 2 respected Barcelona fans. Both rotationalist to the core, as you see, it's a matter of different culture, different countries, different beliefs, which is nice. Just wanted to clarify, it's not surprising you believe in what you haven't seen working, it's natural.

They both agree that rotation works, and I asked them whether they think if it can work in England. They say of course, but another thing is that it will work in our squad. They say, it's not the same to have Etoo and Henry to rotate, than to have mediocre strikers. In their opinion only Kuyt and Torres are up to the level of Liverpool.

They think our squad has a lot of deadwood. They think rotations work, but we have a good manager and not the best squad. About themselves, they think they have the best squad in Europe (I agree when it comes to strikers) but not the best manager. Just 2 pennies from Barcelona and how Liverpool are perceived. BTW, I agree that our squad wasn't good enough in the first season, but I disagree with them about nowadays squad. It's not the best, specially the stikers, but it's good enough to challenge for everything

by **ConnO'var** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:16 am

Sabre wrote:2 respected Barcelona fans. Both rotationalist to the core, as you see, it's a matter of different culture, different countries, different beliefs, which is nice. Just wanted to clarify, it's not surprising you believe in what you haven't seen working, it's natural.

They both agree that rotation works, and I asked them whether they think if it can work in England. They say of course, but another thing is that it will work in our squad. They say, it's not the same to have Etoo and Henry to rotate, than to have mediocre strikers. In their opinion only Kuyt and Torres are up to the level of Liverpool.

They think our squad has a lot of deadwood. They think rotations work, but we have a good manager and not the best squad. About themselves, they think they have the best squad in Europe (I agree when it comes to strikers) but not the best manager. Just 2 pennies from Barcelona and how Liverpool are perceived. BTW, I agree that our squad wasn't good enough in the first season, but I disagree with them about nowadays squad. It's not the best, specially the stikers, but it's good enough to challenge for everything

With due respect to the Barcelona fans, I'd raise some doubts to their understanding of the English game. Being a fan of Liverpool Football CLub, I tend to watch a lot more of the Premiership than the Primera Liga. This is by no means exclusive and I do watch the other leagues as well but I cannot profess to have the same understanding of the Spanish game that I do of the English one. As such, I would surmise that vise versa is equally applicable to them.

While I can understand their views of rotation as it has worked (apparently) in Spain and specifically for their team, personally I have yet to see it being used effectively in England. This could be because not many of our managers subscribe to it and as such I am less exposed to it's merits. The only proponent of mass rotation that I've seen in England being our very own Rafa.

Some rotation, I think is well needed but imho, not to the extent that Rafa has been doing it. To say that this is the be-all and end-all of our current woes would be simplistic in my view.

The quality of the players and the tactics employed are equally significant. Player motivation and drive are equally important.

As said before, the squad, has now been assembled to Rafa's specifications.... very few players are left from the Houllier era (i'm not saying he was much better btw). We are playing according to his tactics and set-up. Motivating the players is his job. If they're not playing up to his standards or requirements, then it is his job to rectify that by either disciplining them or dropping them outright.

Many on here have said that the proof is in the pudding.... the results themselves. Most won't give a flying feck if we won by an @rse lucky keeper own-goal that skewed off into the net via a defender's posterior. Who cares if we got hammered for 91 mins and stole a win in the 92nd? Who gives a stuff if we play like sh!te and still win? The results are all that matters..... these are all views that have been expressed on these boards before.... views which are contrary to my own and as such I cannot agree with and have not heard anything convincing enough in that particular argument to make me change my mind.

It may be living in the past, but I watched us as the dominant force in English football as well as being incredibly successful in Europe, playing a tough, gritty but also entertaining and skillful brand of football. By the same token, isn't it living in the past the way that some are continually harping about Rafa's past acheivements? Ignoring the mistakes he's made along the way in the name of results?

Rafa's players.... Rafa's tactics.... Rafa's motivational skills.... Rafa's rotational policy..... Rafa's TEAM.

Where else can I put the hard questions to if not Rafa's DOOR?

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:33 am

That post is well balanced and fair enough, ConnO'var.

My point was not to give much relevance to the opinion of those Barcelona fans. Not only you, but any of you have a better insight and understanding both of Liverpool and the English game. I agree.

I already have admitted that I understand perfectly to not believe in a system that you haven't seen winning a title in England. That's fair enough aswell.

I just wanted to show you where I come from, my point of view. Show you I'm a rotationist , but not because it's a Rafa concept, but because I truly trust the rotation policy. I just wanted to clarify this, of course your opinion is more valuable for me than any Barcelona's fan!

Fair enough aswell the right you have to place your concerns at Rafa's door. There are problems in the team, and must be solved. I for one think that since we've playing under rotation always (not that much today) and we're playing worse than we use to, there might be plenty of reasons to explain why this is happening, bar rotation. Rafa's decissions for istance, the players performance, whatever.

by **bigmick** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:45 am

Sabes you've alluded a couple of times to the fact that Barcelona and Real Madrid have belatedly adopted the policy of rotation. Out of curiosity, what level of rotation is it? Are we talking Alex Ferguson, Arsene Wenger type rotation of being very conservative when judging when and where to rest players, or are we talking rotation "Rafa syle", with seventy odd changes in fifteen games or whatever it is?

You see I'm not sure that anybody doesn't believe in some sort of rotation. If you don't, it would suggest that you believe the exact same team should be played in every single game and surely nobody believes that. I guess the definition of rotation is leaving a player out of the team when he isn't injured, be it for reasons of form or fatigue. I would guess that everybody would wholeheartedly agree with that concept being available to the manager, but it's just when there are five and six changes at a time when some of us have a problem.

Anyhow, how do Madrid and Barcelona do it, and are there any figures?

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 12:55 am

Instead of answering that lightly, I'll take a good look at it ASAP, looking at the starting elevens etc, and put it all available in the international section under a thread called "Rotation in Spain" or something, so that you can see better how much they rotate and how. I'll try to include aswell how Sevilla rotated massively when they won the uefa. Rijkaard's rotation is perhaps milder, but Sevilla's one rotates more than Rafa's.

Mind you, the Madrid press doesn't like rotations neither. The Journos in Madrid are shíte but quite honest, they admit they have the knives ready but so far they can't use them because Schuster's performance in the league is good! The arguements used when 6 changes are made are pretty much the same that are wielded here in the forum.

by **redtrader74** » Thu Oct 25, 2007 1:58 am

LFC2007 wrote:
peewee wrote:i think you are confused, everyone on here compliments their own team when its due, but they are not stupid enough to say we were fantastic when we were dire, thats where the rose tinted glasses come in mate.

however arsenal do play great football and there is no harm in saying that, people are not saying this at the expense of liverpool, even, people who say liverpool have been brilliant for the last weeks weeks just make themselves look ridiculous in all fairness.

now of someone said spurs play attractive football then i would think they were just on a wind up.

so in conclusion there is nothing wrong with saying someone else plays good football, we don't play good football but that doesnt mean the person supports the other team more than liverpool, it just means they can be honest and not blindly praise their own team when its not deserved

No, I'm not confused.

Certain people will not compliment the team when credit is clearly due, they simply dislike the style of the manager and they refuse to apply any praise as their overwhelming dislike of the state of play over the past few seasons clouds any ability to apply praise. I don't see this as the way it should be. There should be a balance of praise and constructive criticism. On this forum, this is very rare to come by.

Likewise, I think anybody who has any sense is able to see that, when praise is due they apply it, but quickly move on and look forward, viewing the bigger picture.

Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie IMO. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

I don't think I've ever seen Puroresu praise our club, I just find his attitude very odd.

No mention of comparison with how good Rafa's European pedigree is to Wengers, just 'Arsenal are amazing'. Perhaps I'm making an assumption, but I feel at the very least an acknowledgement should be made. As a result, I perceived his post to be lacking in balance.

Praising Arsenal is pretty much a given, no-one will dispute that Arsenal have been exceptional in recent times, however, dwelling on their fantastic form is an odd attitude to take.

No-one on this forum blindly praises their own team, even Lando for example, he may be slightly more reluctant than others to post criticism, but he acknowledges our strengths and weaknesses in his own mind (I'm a mindreader BTW) and like him I get very frustrated when the balance of praise vs criticism is almost 100% weighted towards criticism, and any positives are completely ignored. This is predominantly why post-match views expressed on this forum are often polarised. Those who want to apply praise for the aspects (however minor) of our game that deserve credit, feel polarised by the barracking abuse aimed at the team and the manager, therefore the level of criticism of the team they offer will be less.

If those who ignore the positive aspects of our game, made, at the very least an acknowledgement (no-one specifically) of the positives we can take take from each game with a view to moving forward, then those who offer what appears to be complete praise and little or no criticism will begin to offer a more balanced level of criticism.

If someone who inherently supports the team and manager, and who is an optimist, reads someone on this forum calling Rafa a '****' or that he needs to 'grow some balls', then it's highly unlilkely you'll receive a response that appears to be balanced and in all likelihood will contain no criticism (basically because they are constantly having to defend the positives), you will then label that person as being in the rose tinted spectacle brigade. On most occasions, people simply disagree in their judgements and as a result there will not be a compromise. Also, a large part of the communication breakdown on this forum is down to assumptions. Just because someone doesn't apply praise or criticism does not mean they don't acknowledge one or the other. However, at the very least I feel an acknowledgement should be made.

This is the way the forum works.

Good post my sentiments exactly,

you blindly following rose tinted b@574?D

by **bedlovedays** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:33 am

Two questions
1. What impact has the departure of Paco had on the team?
2. What impact have the injuries to Agger and Alonso had on the team?

by **red37** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:20 am

bedlovedays wrote:Two questions
1. What impact has the departure of Paco had on the team?
2. What impact have the injuries to Agger and Alonso had on the team?

Never thought of them lad, you might be on the trail... Hang on i'll have a look through the other (x amount of) threads and see if i can find out.

by **Judge** » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:35 pm

red37 wrote:
bedlovedays wrote:Two questions
1. What impact has the departure of Paco had on the team?
2. What impact have the injuries to Agger and Alonso had on the team?

Never thought of them lad, you might be on the trail... Hang on i'll have a look through the other (x amount of) threads and see if i can find out.

well, you wanted moderatorship, get trawling red37

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