Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:35 am

Sabre wrote:Bad Bob.

I think Wenger's view of squad management is anchored in the nineties, and I think Liverpool will end the season with more points than them, like yesteryear and the year before.

Anchored in the nineties? I don't know about that Sabes.They had a team win the Premiership while going the whole season unbeaten a couple of seasons back. They were a pretty special team that one, believe me.

Since then, they've lost Vierra who was by common consent one of the best two or three midfileders who have ever played in the Premiership, and Thierry Henri who doesn't need me to describe him. You could also say they've lost Campbell, Pires, Ljundberg, Bergkamp etc in the last three or four seasons and this manager who's idea of squad management which is rooted in the nineties has built a pretty good team to replace them. All while we have building our own team under Rafa I might add, and without knowing for certain I'd be interested to see whether we have spent more or less money doing it.

No, being dismissive of someone like Wenger isn't as easy as that. The truth is of course that both he and Ferguson rotate anyway, but simply nowhere neat to the extent that Rafa does. What we are in the midst of is an experiment from Rafa. It's an experiment because it has never been done with any success (by success I mean winning the league, not "record points totals" when we run on through beaten horses when the league is already decided either) in this country. NObody has ever rotated "Rafa style" and won the English Premier League.

It is my heartfelt belief that nobody ever will, but we'll see. As for us finishing above Arsenal this season? Well we'll see on that as well. As I alluded to on another thread, I just hope that Rafa's undoubted and undisputed excellence at nullifying the opposition is fully in evidence on Sunday, because if it isn't then finishing above Arsenal will be the least of our worries.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:36 am

i think you are confused, everyone on here compliments their own team when its due, but they are not stupid enough to say we were fantastic when we were dire, thats where the rose tinted glasses come in mate.

however arsenal do play great football and there is no harm in saying that, people are not saying this at the expense of liverpool, even, people who say liverpool have been brilliant for the last weeks weeks just make themselves look ridiculous in all fairness.

now of someone said spurs play attractive football then i would think they were just on a wind up.

so in conclusion there is nothing wrong with saying someone else plays good football, we don't play good football but that doesnt mean the person supports the other team more than liverpool, it just means they can be honest and not blindly praise their own team when its not deserved

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:39 am

LFC2007 wrote:Some Liverpool fans on here never seem to compliment or support their own team, over a consistent period of time.

At the same time these fans also rave about other teams, it goes beyond due credit, it creates the impression that they are supporting another team.

Whilst Liverpool fans are well known for giving credit to other teams, they are also known for supporting their own team through thick and thin.

Although if you do that on this forum it seems you are labelled as being in the rose tinted spectacle brigade.

3 years and rafa is rotating more than ever and its only this season that people are getting more and more fed up. To me personally that shows amazing support to wait 3 years before finally saying enoughs enough is patience and support at its best.

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:39 am

As an add-on, maybe some others could help me out here. That Arsenal team (of probably four or five years ago, the mind plays tricks a bit) also had Seaman, Ashley Cole, Lauren, Martin Keown. I can't think of any others but they were a pretty useful fecking team I do remember that much. Put it this way, it's not a bad effort to replace all of them and have a decent team within four or five years. That type of "stuck in the nineties" management I can live with.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:43 am

bigmick wrote:As an add-on, maybe some others could help me out here. That Arsenal team (of probably four or five years ago, the mind plays tricks a bit) also had Seaman, Ashley Cole, Lauren, Martin Keown. I can't think of any others but they were a pretty useful fecking team I do remember that much. Put it this way, it's not a bad effort to replace all of them and have a decent team within four or five years. That type of "stuck in the nineties" management I can live with.

I dont believe they have truly replaced Seaman but the way they play doesnt seem to matter ! Tonight they were awesome.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:52 am

Bigmick: "Anchored in the nineties" seems dismissive and disrespectful from England. From my point of view, it's a strong phrase, but it's just a description of what I see.

Wenger's words sound familiar to me because his thoughts, have been my thoughts until some years ago. In Spain, the teams believed in those notions many posters have been saying here. Those are valid points. But from *my* point of view, they were used in the nineties, where as nowadays, top Spanish clubs use rotation policy. So it's anchored in the nineties for *me* (just an opinion), with all due respect for Wenger.

It's obvious aswell that rotation hasn't worked in England so far. And thus, I understand your point of view and your doubtful attitude to this rotation thing. Plus, you argue your points well and in a decent manner, as you always have.

But there's a first for everything, I guess when mirandinha the first Brazilian in England was bullied in his games here, some people would think that no Brazilian would succeed ever in the premiership. Wenger himself, who is a very respectable manager, and with a decent attitude in the media, brought new concepts to England as far as I have read, new methods.

No, I'm not dismissive towards him, and I respect everyone of your opinions. This time I was bold and make predictions (and none of us can see the future) in order to put the cards over the table, as I've discussed enough of this

and I'm going to stand up from the rotation table. There are my predictions, if in June we fail miserably, do not hesitate any of you to remind me those quotes! I'll live with that

by **bigmick** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:55 am

Yes both Arsenal and Man Utd are following the tried and trusted rotational methods. I notice now that both have practically qualified and are in the middle of multiple winning runs, they are starting to rotate/rest players selectively. Walcott started for Arsenal while I don't think Scholes made the trip to Kiev for Man Utd. All the while though they are both building confidence, momentum, fluency and rhythm. It may be stuck in the nineties (sorry Sabes but I love that quote

) but it is more sensible I reckon that heavily rotating at the very start of the season and inhibiting your ability to get out of the blocks.

The other bi-product of course is that if we were to beat Arsenal on Sunday, it wouldn't be terminal blow for them as they have points on the board. Similarly Man Utd could afford to drop a couple of points. Fot us however, a defeat for us along with Man Utd winning would make us outsiders at best, and this is only after ten games. If we were to lose, convincing ourselves that the next time we play Arsenal they are going to be tired out while we will be leaping around like gazelles is going to be scant consolation.

Fortunatley I don't think it'll come to that. Not only are they due to lose somewhere, but we are due a performance and I hope that this Sunday we'll get it. If we can just scrape a result in the European game, I think we might just turn them over. It won't though be because they're tired out so please spare us that one before it comes up :laugh:

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:13 am

peewee wrote:i think you are confused, everyone on here compliments their own team when its due, but they are not stupid enough to say we were fantastic when we were dire, thats where the rose tinted glasses come in mate.

however arsenal do play great football and there is no harm in saying that, people are not saying this at the expense of liverpool, even, people who say liverpool have been brilliant for the last weeks weeks just make themselves look ridiculous in all fairness.

now of someone said spurs play attractive football then i would think they were just on a wind up.

so in conclusion there is nothing wrong with saying someone else plays good football, we don't play good football but that doesnt mean the person supports the other team more than liverpool, it just means they can be honest and not blindly praise their own team when its not deserved

No, I'm not confused.

Certain people will not compliment the team when credit is clearly due, they simply dislike the style of the manager and they refuse to apply any praise as their overwhelming dislike of the state of play over the past few seasons clouds any ability to apply praise. I don't see this as the way it should be. There should be a balance of praise and constructive criticism. On this forum, this is very rare to come by.

Likewise, I think anybody who has any sense is able to see that, when praise is due they apply it, but quickly move on and look forward, viewing the bigger picture.

Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie IMO. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

I don't think I've ever seen Puroresu praise our club, I just find his attitude very odd.

No mention of comparison with how good Rafa's European pedigree is to Wengers, just 'Arsenal are amazing'. Perhaps I'm making an assumption, but I feel at the very least an acknowledgement should be made. As a result, I perceived his post to be lacking in balance.

Praising Arsenal is pretty much a given, no-one will dispute that Arsenal have been exceptional in recent times, however, dwelling on their fantastic form is an odd attitude to take.

No-one on this forum blindly praises their own team, even Lando for example, he may be slightly more reluctant than others to post criticism, but he acknowledges our strengths and weaknesses in his own mind (I'm a mindreader BTW) and like him I get very frustrated when the balance of praise vs criticism is almost 100% weighted towards criticism, and any positives are completely ignored. This is predominantly why post-match views expressed on this forum are often polarised. Those who want to apply praise for the aspects (however minor) of our game that deserve credit, feel polarised by the barracking abuse aimed at the team and the manager, therefore the level of criticism of the team they offer will be less.

If those who ignore the positive aspects of our game, made, at the very least an acknowledgement (no-one specifically) of the positives we can take take from each game with a view to moving forward, then those who offer what appears to be complete praise and little or no criticism will begin to offer a more balanced level of criticism.

If someone who inherently supports the team and manager, and who is an optimist, reads someone on this forum calling Rafa a '****' or that he needs to 'grow some balls', then it's highly unlilkely you'll receive a response that appears to be balanced and in all likelihood will contain no criticism (basically because they are constantly having to defend the positives), you will then label that person as being in the rose tinted spectacle brigade. On most occasions, people simply disagree in their judgements and as a result there will not be a compromise. Also, a large part of the communication breakdown on this forum is down to assumptions. Just because someone doesn't apply praise or criticism does not mean they don't acknowledge one or the other. However, at the very least I feel an acknowledgement should be made.

This is the way the forum works.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:16 am

Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Some Liverpool fans on here never seem to compliment or support their own team, over a consistent period of time.

At the same time these fans also rave about other teams, it goes beyond due credit, it creates the impression that they are supporting another team.

Whilst Liverpool fans are well known for giving credit to other teams, they are also known for supporting their own team through thick and thin.

Although if you do that on this forum it seems you are labelled as being in the rose tinted spectacle brigade.

3 years and rafa is rotating more than ever and its only this season that people are getting more and more fed up. To me personally that shows amazing support to wait 3 years before finally saying enoughs enough is patience and support at its best.

This is a point of dispute, there are many people who simply disagree that rotation is responsible for our poor form, or that our league form since Rafa's tenure began hasn't improved.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:20 am

LFC2007 wrote:Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

And so are other people and other people voice there opinions on here and other people point out why we are failing by comparing our club to the ones above us. The only way to see us improving, where we have gone wrong and where we have been strong is by comparing us to the top teams.

Contradiction at its best I think.

by **Espionage** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:26 am

If you are an optimist, the normal reaction to all the pessimism going around is to exaggerate the positives. You really cant blame them for doing it when others provocatively go on about the negatives.

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:28 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Some Liverpool fans on here never seem to compliment or support their own team, over a consistent period of time.

At the same time these fans also rave about other teams, it goes beyond due credit, it creates the impression that they are supporting another team.

Whilst Liverpool fans are well known for giving credit to other teams, they are also known for supporting their own team through thick and thin.

Although if you do that on this forum it seems you are labelled as being in the rose tinted spectacle brigade.

3 years and rafa is rotating more than ever and its only this season that people are getting more and more fed up. To me personally that shows amazing support to wait 3 years before finally saying enoughs enough is patience and support at its best.

This is a point of dispute, there are many people who simply disagree that rotation is responsible for our poor form, or that our league form since Rafa's tenure began hasn't improved.

I agree with that. I dont blame rotation at all I blame the players not earning there wage. All I was stating is that people are getting fed up and voicing there opinion more this season than since rafa has been here and therefore showing tremendous support and patience.

by **LFC2007** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:28 am

Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

And so are other people and other people voice there opinions on here and other people point out why we are failing by comparing our club to the ones above us. The only way to see us improving, where we have gone wrong and where we have been strong is by comparing us to the top teams.

Contradiction at its best I think.

No, it's not a contradiction at all when those who praise Arsenal unremittingly apply no link or connection with Liverpool FC and how it relates to us.

I'm not referring to brief praise of Arsenal, I'm referring to the constant remarks about how great they are and not tying it in with anything that is forward looking relating to LFC.

by **112-1077774096** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:31 am

why should he mention liverpool in europe when talking about arsenal, this i dont understand, do we now have to mention liverpool in every post, when we talk about other clubs do we have to compare them to liverpool or risk being labeled odd.

pureso is a decent poster, i have seen him praise liverpool many times, i have also seen him criticise with some justification. i have also seen him be mature enough to give praise to other teams when that praise is due, fair play to the lad.

i would trust his posts ad knowledge more than someone who blindly praises everything 'liverpool' while totally missing how poor we have been, at least his arguments are balanced. (this is not really aimed at you LFC2007 as i do agree you can be balanced in your football views, but you need to remember so can others)

by **Kharhaz** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 1:33 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Kharhaz wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Arsenal do play fantastic football, however, springing almost instinctively to their defense makes me question where their loyalty lies. Okay, Arsenal play fantastic football, it's been said. That's not where the focus of your (generic) support should lie. I'm always thinking of how we can improve, where we've gone wrong, and where we've been strong, not how great Arsenal are. They've been great, ok, move on.

And so are other people and other people voice there opinions on here and other people point out why we are failing by comparing our club to the ones above us. The only way to see us improving, where we have gone wrong and where we have been strong is by comparing us to the top teams.

Contradiction at its best I think.

No, it's not a contradiction at all when those who praise Arsenal unremittingly apply no link or connection with Liverpool FC and how it relates to us.

I'm not referring to brief praise of Arsenal, I'm referring to the constant remarks about how great they are and not tying it in with anything that is forward looking relating to LFC.

But the way Arsenal are playing is simple and effective. Pass and move. Remember LFC released a song of the same name. Maybe its just heartbreaking seeing another team playing Liverpools famous style better than what we are.

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