Liverpool FC Forum

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:18 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
radun5 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

I agree and disagree, football is a very simple game, but it is very hard to understand

# A game played by two teams of 11 players each on a rectangular, 100-yard-long field with goal lines and goal posts at either end, the object being to gain possession of the ball and advance it in running or passing plays across the opponent's goal line or kick it through the air between the opponent's goal posts.

by **Judge** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:22 pm

kick it thru the air

dunno why that made me laugh, it just did

by **Zi-Dan Agger** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:19 pm

After all the talk of how Man Utd and Chelsea perform better than us because they dont rotate, just turned the TV on and saw that Man Utd are resting Ronaldo (argueably their best player) for what is going to be a very tricky away day at Villa (the same Villa who beat Chelsea). As far as i know Ronaldo is not injured, so is this not ferguson rotating? Lets see if he gets berated in the media, chances are it wont even get mentioned.

by **puroresu** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 5:27 pm

Zi-Dan Agger wrote:After all the talk of how Man Utd and Chelsea perform better than us because they dont rotate, just turned the TV on and saw that Man Utd are resting Ronaldo (argueably their best player) for what is going to be a very tricky away day at Villa (the same Villa who beat Chelsea). As far as i know Ronaldo is not injured, so is this not ferguson rotating? Lets see if he gets berated in the media, chances are it wont even get mentioned.

Its not really the same is it. Ronaldo is rested due to his international games. I still see Ferdinand, Tevez, Rooney, Scholes, Evra and Giggs in the side.

Not to mention he has the luxury of bringing in a player like Nani for Ronaldo.

by **parvin** » Sat Oct 20, 2007 6:00 pm

its not a luxury , he wants to rest ronaldo as he does not want to over exert him , if ronaldo is injured , in big games ferguson knows he is screwed

by **Toffeehater** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:14 am

not really , they work well as a team together , and the difference is they play almost the same team every week

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:27 pm

This thread has been quiet a bit more since we had the Gerrard substitution to discuss about.

But make no mistake, the discussion will come back, Bigmick is already asking somewhere else to stop this silliness of "Resting" players. :laugh:

One of the arguements that are used against rotation is that chopping and changing players make the players play as if they were strangers. A counter argument by the other camp was that the players do train together, so they won't be strangers.

Question: Doesn't prove the fact that Lucas Leiva did a decent appearance that provided a player trains and is familiar with the methods of the squad, he will be able to enter a starting eleven and do a decissive appearance?

I'm bashful enough to admit my question is tendentious. I do admit that if you make 7 changes from one week to another (which we hardly do) you'll notice it in the team as a whole.

My point is that "they'll play as strangers" is relative, bad performances and tactical mistakes also count. And to stress the importance of the training sessions, without proper good training, it would be impossible for Lucas to participate in a difficult game like that with success. And because he's been gelling in training sessions for a while, I think we're going to see more of him from now on than we have seen so far this season.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:36 pm

Sabre wrote:This thread has been quiet a bit more since we had the Gerrard substitution to discuss about.

But make no mistake, the discussion will come back, Bigmick is already asking somewhere else to stop this silliness of "Resting" players.

One of the arguements that are used against rotation is that chopping and changing players make the players play as if they were strangers. A counter argument by the other camp was that the players do train together, so they won't be strangers.

Question: Doesn't prove the fact that Lucas Leiva did a decent appearance that provided a player trains and is familiar with the methods of the squad, he will be able to enter a starting eleven and do a decissive appearance?

I'm bashful enough to admit my question is tendentious. I do admit that if you make 7 changes from one week to another (which we hardly do) you'll notice it in the team as a whole.

My point is that "they'll play as strangers" is relative, bad performances and tactical mistakes also count. And to stress the importance of the training sessions, without proper good training, it would be impossible for Lucas to participate in a difficult game like that with success. And because he's been gelling in training sessions for a while, I think we're going to see more of him from now on than we have seen so far this season.

Don't you get it mate? The facts don't prove anything if rotation is involved!

Seriously, though, I feel there's far too much flak aimed at rotation, rather than individual performances. If a player follows the tactics to the letter, 9 times out of 10 we win the game. If not, then it's down said players to rectify their errors, and be held accountable for them.

In answer to your question, I personally feel that gelling is done on the training ground, and not in matches.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:49 pm

Sabre wrote:This thread has been quiet a bit more since we had the Gerrard substitution to discuss about.

But make no mistake, the discussion will come back, Bigmick is already asking somewhere else to stop this silliness of "Resting" players.

One of the arguements that are used against rotation is that chopping and changing players make the players play as if they were strangers. A counter argument by the other camp was that the players do train together, so they won't be strangers.

Question: Doesn't prove the fact that Lucas Leiva did a decent appearance that provided a player trains and is familiar with the methods of the squad, he will be able to enter a starting eleven and do a decissive appearance?

I'm bashful enough to admit my question is tendentious. I do admit that if you make 7 changes from one week to another (which we hardly do) you'll notice it in the team as a whole.

My point is that "they'll play as strangers" is relative, bad performances and tactical mistakes also count. And to stress the importance of the training sessions, without proper good training, it would be impossible for Lucas to participate in a difficult game like that with success. And because he's been gelling in training sessions for a while, I think we're going to see more of him from now on than we have seen so far this season.

Well I'm bashful enoguh to admit I don't know what tendentious means but I will certainly answer the point. I do wish though that when you name me in a post Sabes, and off-handedly quote me you would do so in context and I'll deal with that first.

I actually spoke in the other post of "what we don't need right now", meaning of course that in between the game we have just had, and the game against Arsenal on Sunday. I wasn't, haven't and aren't going to suggest that we should NEVER rest players, but I would like to point out that resting six and seven at a time is probably not the way to go.

Since we are trading long words here, I would suggest that you are/were well aware of the distinction Sabes and your attempts to discredit my stance were marginally disengenuinuous on your part but no matter.

On the question of Lucas coming into the team and making an encouraging debut, the extrapolation of where you are coming from is that every player would be terrible on debut because they haven't had time to acclimatise. This of course is nonsense and isn't what you are saying at all, you are asking the question of the anti-rotationalists.

The answer of course is that football is a team game and we talk of fluency, anticipation and rhythm, we are referring to the team. Obviously if Gerrard didn't play for six months and then came back into the team, provided he was fit he'd do well because he is a great player. What we are talking about here though is not Gerrard or lucas the player, but Liverpool the team. Those in doubt should try and catch a clip of Arsenal and Manchester United at the moment. Ten minutes or so of that and any definitions I could give of fluency and rhythm will be pretty surplus to requirements I should have thought.

I only hope thst Rafa's undoubted and indisputed tactical mastery, particularly int he defensive aspect of the game is very much in evidence on Sunday. If it isn't, given our current lack of fluency, form and rhythm we may get a very graphic illustration of what I'm talking about on our own ground this weekend. Thankfully I have confidence that despite the fact that I currently disagree with the manager on many issues, I have confidence we will be able to disrupt Arsenals Joi de vivre sufficiently to grind out a result.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 12:03 am

Apologises. Sorry, seriously. Mentioning you was a simple joke about how often you, me, Bad Bob, and a bunch of posters have discussed in the rotation thread, the quotation served no other purpose than suggesting we might be discussing something like that here soon enough, I felt that since you also joked on the issue, it would do no harm. I feel that it didn't come across like that, and I'm sorry for it. No intention of discredit at all.

I'll be more careful in the future when I name posters, promise.

That said, thank you for your answer to the question.

by **stapo1000** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 2:25 am

i would have no problem with rotation if we rotated around a core of reina agger carra gerrard and torres. ie. play these players every game while rotating the rest of the 11

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:05 pm

Forgive me for putting the focus onto Arsenal for a moment but, since we have made comparisons to the other top sides in discussing rotation, I thought these news items (both from Soccernet) might be relevant.

First, we'll look at Wenger's argument for not rotating:

Wenger sticks with team to disappoint stars

Arsene Wenger admits Arsenal's stunning start to the season has come at a cost - upsetting some of the big names at the Emirates Stadium.

The Gunners are unbeaten this season and have only dropped points in one Premier League game, and that was following a blunder by Jens Lehmann at Blackburn.

The Germany goalkeeper has not played for the club since, with Manuel Almunia taking over, while Gilberto has found himself on the bench as Cesc Fabregas and Mathieu Flamini shine in central midfield.

Wenger could tinker with his line-up tonight against Slavia Prague in the Champions League, but he is also wary of changing a winning formula.

'I never had that before,' said the Frenchman.

'You can only trust to what you see, it is the price of the team doing well on a consistent level for four, five, six games.

'It's unjust to change the team if you are doing well. They are not happy to be in the situation of course. I never try to convince someone to be happy in a position like that.

'We are in a job where competition is vital and we have to deal with those kind of situations and the top-level players deal with that.

'Gilberto and Lehmann are certainly not happy, but their attitude in training is certainly spot-on. That's where you gain more respect. My biggest job is to win the next game, and my players are so professional they will always behave like professionals.'

Theo Walcott is also pushing for a starting place after a series of cameos off the bench.

'When a guy comes on and makes a difference, he doesn't stay a long time as a substitute,' said Wenger.

'That is what is good in the attitude of our players, they come on with a real desire to affect the game.'

The strength of Arsenal's squad has raised expectations of success. Skipper William Gallas expects nothing less than silverware this season - and insists there is every chance of going one better in the Champions League than he did with Chelsea.

Gallas, 30, started the season doubting the direction of Arsenal following the departure of Thierry Henry but he has watched from the sidelines as his club have started the season in style.

The France defender could not remember watching many Chelsea games but his new team-mates had him on the edge of his seat while he was out with a groin strain.

'It is very important for us to win something this season,' said Gallas, who came back at the weekend against Bolton.

'It will not be easy for us because every team wants to beat Arsenal but we are ready to fight them.

'When you start the season and start winning game by game, you believe in yourself and the squad.

'Now all the young players know we can do something and they really want to win because if you don't win anything there is no point.'

But, of course, there's always a danger of this...

Dropped Lehmann hits out at Arsenal 'humiliation'

Arsenal goalkeeper Jens Lehmann has warned coach Arsene Wenger his 'humiliation' at being left out of the Gunners side must end sooner rather than later.

The 37-year-old has now returned to full fitness following an elbow injury suffered on international duty with Germany towards the end of August.

However, the veteran was not involved at all, even in the squad, for the weekend's Barclays Premier League clash with Bolton at Emirates Stadium - and it remains to be seen whether Lehmann will feature in tonight's Champions League game against Slavia Prague.

Lehmann has not played for Arsenal since the Premier League match at Blackburn on August 19, when his error proved costly in a 1-1 draw. In his absence, Manuel Almunia has proved a more than able deputy, keeping seven clean sheets, as the Gunners stormed to the top of the table, with Poland international Lukasz Fabianski warming the bench.

Wenger accepts the German - and also fellow senior player Gilberto, another currently out of the side - is not happy with the situation, but has praised their professional attitude in training as 'spot-on'.

Lehmann, however, has clearly indicated it is something he expects resolved in his favour soon.

Speaking in an interview with German pay-tv station Premiere, which will be aired during tonight's Champions League programme, Lehmann declared: 'It could be that at some point I feel like commenting on the whole issue, but right at the moment I just accept everything as part of the humiliation. You have to let it happen.

'But I think - and this is directed towards my dear coach - that you should not humiliate players for too long. I am an Arsenal player and I will not just fade away quietly.'

Lehmann insisted: 'I am convinced I will soon be playing again. Almunia hasn't shown that he can win us matches just yet. I have been through this situation once and know how the other keeper is situated mentally. I can't imagine he will handle this.

'Wenger has spoken of three world-class goalies. I guess I must be one of them. The others have proven their class by winning titles? I'm just thinking about it, and I can't recall any. But yet today they are considered world class.'

Germany coach Joachim Low has already suggested Lehmann must be back playing regular club football if he is to remain first choice for his country in the run up to next summer's European Championships.

Lehmann, who turns 38 next month, added: 'The disadvantage from the game against Ireland is that my coach now knows that he has a keeper who can produce a pretty good game out of nowhere and without match practice. He could not ask for a better keeper on the bench.'

Seriously shocking comments by Lehmann if they are accurate but, perhaps, they highlight what can happen in the dressing room when players aren't getting games. Thoughts?

by **bigmick** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:18 pm

See if you can guess what I think Bob

I wonder what the other crew members on the anti-rotation express think of Wengers stance?

Lets get this straight. If we take Wengers ideas on board, there's a chance we'll play with the cohesion, fluency and rhythm of Arsenal, but there's also the chance we might p!ss off a p!ss poor, past it German keeper

There's also the distinct possibility that those who believe in such a mantra might be labelled a dinosaur, stuck in the past, clueless

Hmmmmmmm.

CHOO-CHOO!!!!!!!! All aboard !!!!!!!!

by **Bad Bob** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:35 pm

bigmick wrote:See if you can guess what I think Bob I wonder what the other crew members on the anti-rotation express think of Wengers stance?

Lets get this straight. If we take Wengers ideas on board, there's a chance we'll play with the cohesion, fluency and rhythm of Arsenal, but there's also the chance we might p!ss off a p!ss poor, past it German keeper

There's also the distinct possibility that those who believe in such a mantra might be labelled a dinosaur, stuck in the past, clueless Hmmmmmmm.

CHOO-CHOO!!!!!!!! All aboard !!!!!!!!

Yeah, I figured you'd see it this way Mick. And, I'm not disagreeing, BTW. Here's Wenger actually nailing his colours to the mast on the issue and saying that deciding not to rotate has got them where they are at the moment. Given the table, it's hard to argue with that. But, will they stay there? We shall see.

As for Lehmann, I posted his comments somewhat tongue-in-cheek. I don't really think his disgraceful (if true) attitude in any way justifies a rotation policy. Keeping a t.wat like that happy should not be a priority and if I were "his dear coach" I'd be packing his bags for him if these comments are accurate. No, I posted that article because I can't believe a professional footballer would actually have the nerve to say what he did about his teammate in public.

by **Sabre** » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:21 pm

Bad Bob.

I think Wenger's view of squad management is anchored in the nineties, and I think Liverpool will end the season with more points than them, like yesteryear and the year before.

I also think that Wenger will never win the Champions league with that tactics. (1)

And last, but not least

Seriously shocking comments by Lehmann if they are accurate but, perhaps, they highlight what can happen in the dressing room when players aren't getting games. Thoughts?

This is the smallest of the risks of not rotating. Asked for thoughts? those are mine. We'll check the facts at the end of the season, no need to discuss them.

(1) And I truly believe this, I say this when they're first in the premiership and they scored 7-0 against Slavia Praga.

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