Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:07 pm

Tommy Smith: Rotation may be starting to affect Reds’ motivation
Oct 10 2007 by Tommy Smith, Liverpool Echo

Rotation may be starting to affect Reds’ motivation

THERE has to be some soul-searching in the next 10 days by Rafa Benitez and his players.

The prospect of a derby match at Goodison should be sufficient motivation for his stars to rediscover their form.

But “form” is what we expected against Marseille and in the second half against Tottenham, and what we got was totally different.

Instead of a team of title hopefuls they have become strugglers in a short space of time.

The entire team failed to live up to expectations in the Champions League, and the second half on Sunday was dreadful, too.

I have tried to reason how, or why, it has happened. But there is nothing I can come up with, apart from the dreaded rotation.

I have always maintained I would pick my strongest side and let the others on the bench fight for their places when a chance arose.

Sadly, for the manager, it’s not as if it’s just one player who has gone off the boil.

In the first half against Tottenham the team did quite well, and there was no reason not to build on that. But it was awful in the second half.

It was Liverpool’s own fault. We were just lousy in defence and struggled against Berbatov and Keane.

We know they are threats, so why weren’t they marked out of the game?

Selection starts and finishes with Benitez. When the team plays well he can take the plaudits; when they play badly, he carries the can.

Torres was always working against Spurs, looking for the ball and putting the equaliser away superbly, while Voronin also did well.

The Marseille game was the worst I have seen in Europe. Shanks would have sent us back out on the pitch after the game to apologise to the fans if we had performed like that.

Any manager can be tough if he wants and, after the Champions League game, I would have expected an improved show from the team against Spurs. But it was another poor show in the second half on Sunday.

The players have to do a lot better.

All the talk in the red half of Merseyside early season was how well we were playing and about our title prospects. Now the talk is on selection and rotation – a dirty word – and the poor form of several players.

The biggest problem is motivation. If a player has done well he would expect a run in the side, but at Anfield that is not guaranteed. Being “benched” isn’t a problem, but if you are earning £50k playing or not, could that influence a player’s attitude to the game?

The players have to reveal the passion that was evident early season. Some are suffering a lack of confidence, and whichever team Benitez picks just isn’t firing.

Agger and Alonso have been out for four weeks and, in both cases, they have been missed. Benitez has said it is one of the best squads we have had, but evidently it is not as good as he thought!

Despite all this, we are probably in a better position now than we were last year.

But the lack of concentration, lack of effort, lack of consistency is baffling. I would just like to hear from someone coming out of the dressing room that the manager lost his temper after such dire performances.

It’s to be hoped the form improves come a week on Saturday!

I have never thought Tommy was one of the better analysts and this does little to change my opinion. I don't know which would be better .... give them a b0llocking for playing badly and risk shattering their confidence even more, or saying nothing.

by **Sabre** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:20 pm

I have tried to reason how, or why, it has happened. But there is nothing I can come up with, apart from the dreaded rotation.

This bit of Tommy Smith is literally true. When he's unable to explain what's going on then the dreaded rotation is handy.

Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game. It's difficult to explain why Rijkaard's team seemed unbeatable at some moments of last season, and then Liverpool was better in two games than them. Then they entered a crisis in their football. In the first crisis he had 2 years ago, rotation was blamed. In the crisis of yesteryear, the performance of the likes of Ronaldingo was blamed. This year they seem strong again. Why? what has changed?

Sevilla was a strong team to defeat last season, UEFA champions, and this year with a stronger squad they lose 3-0 against Arsenal and struggle against Spanish minor team. Some fans are asking for his head, after calling him GOd. Why? what has changed?

I know England is different in many ways but not in the fact that is difficult to explain this things!! sometimes even the managers (no matter Ferguson, Benitez, any) doesn't know why something isn't working.

But I have no doubts about this squad being stronger than the previous one, so it's a matter of time we do better.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:25 pm

peewee wrote:i also know what has been written on these boards about macmahon, basically nothing considering he is on tv about 5 or 6 times a week, a couple of soundbites does not make you an expert on his comments or feelings.

And sitting there day after day beating your meat over his inane ramblings doesn't make YOU an expert, either.

You chat about "what he won as a player" - well what exactly does that prove? That he could play football.

Does it mean he understands every detail of management and tactics, better than the man who employs them?

Does it feck.

He could earn piles more cash working as a manager, rather than a pundit on Asian tv - the graveyard shift of footballing commentary. A strategically clipped swan would be a hit over there.

If he knows it all, why is he not winning things with a top club? Why? Because being a good player does not mean you'll be a good manager.

Bryan Robson.

Paul Gascoigne.

Ian Rush.

Jan Molby.

Graham Souness.

Pele.

Maradona.

Alan Hansen.

Mark Lawrenson.

Tony Adams, etc, etc, etc.

But you keep thrashing your gland over a man who "knows everything", despite still working for a second-rate station in a second-rate footballing area.

by **Bad Bob** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:27 pm

Owzat wrote:all players are rotated, some players are more rotated than others

Out of interest I was looking at how many minutes players have had on the pitch and converted them to a percentage of minutes possible over eight league games (720 mins)

720 Reina (100%)
692 Arbeloa (96.11%)
614 Carragher (85.28%)
591 Pennant (82.08%)
586 Torres (81.39%)
544 Finnan (75.56%)
474 Gerrard (65.83%)
474 Kuyt (65.83%)
458 Riise (63.61%)
436 Agger (60.56%)
436 Alonso (60.56%)
374 Hyypia (51.94%)
368 Voronin (51.11%)
346 Mascherano (48.06%)
300 Babel (41.67%)
197 Sissoko (27.36%)
169 Benayoun (23.47%)
86 Crouch (11.94%)
55 Aurelio (7.64%)
0 Itandje (0.00%)
0 Insua (0.00%)
0 Lucas (0.00%)
0 Leto (0.00%)

So six players have played over 75% of the Premiership games so far (6 x 90 mins) and a further five have played over 60%. So it seems only some positions and players get rotated regularly and some barely get a look in, and that's only 23 players so in theory most should be around 50%. If Alonso and Agger hadn't been injured and indeed Carra and Gerrard, all three would have played a lot more mins. So it's mainly the midfield and strikers who get rotated, some logic to that but not really a pure rotation policy. And if we have four strikers on a rotation policy how can one have played less than one full game having not been injured?!?!?

This is what I've been saying all along (well, since page four of this thread, following my own analysis of the stats): Rafa is barely rotating in the league. His team selections have been quite consistent across the eight games, allowing of course for the injuries you've noted.

Where he is rotating is in the cup competitions and quite significantly so. And, I suspect that if we had polled newkitters at the start of the season and asked them if they would be happy to see Rafa play a virtually settled side in all league matches, while rotating significantly in the cup competitions, most would have answered in the affirmative. Indeed, I well remember a few comments along the lines of "as long as he focuses on the league, I can live with rotation..."

Unfortunately, however, league matches and cup matches come thick and fast at this time of the season and treating them as hermetically sealed competitions which have no bearing on one another is problematic. I think this is where people like Big Mick see an issue: making massive changes for the cup matches has a knock-on effect for performances in the league. Rafa, of course, would see this as a minor blip that can be overcome and that the benefits of rotating between competitions will be felt during the run-in and more than offset these current 'costs'.

The million dollar/pound question remains, though: we'll we still be in the hunt by then?

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:51 pm

After what was described by pretty much everyone as a easy start to the season we are now coming into a run of games that are vital to our season, lose these and the title challenge is over for another year, win them and while the titles not won at least we will still be in there fighting. Everton, Arsenal, Blackburn (away) say it fast and it doesnt seem too bad. We need 7 points from these games IMO.

We have 16 points from 8 games which would mean if that was maintained only 76points by the end of the season, probably enough for 3rd place.

I support sensible rotation but in the short term I think we have to sacrifice a little bit of rotation and possible end of season fitness for the short term gain of getting a settled team and hopefully a few extra points in the bag. I am hopeful when the players come back after the international break Rafa picks a side and sticks with it for the next few games, get the team playing with confidence again and hopefully knock some confidence out of Arsenal while we are doing it.

by **red37** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:45 am

A couple of quotes on this rrotation issue from Mascherano, who also intimates his desire to extend his current stay at the club.

I'm keen to stay, says Mascherano

Andy Hunter
Thursday October 11, 2007

Guardian

Javier Mascherano has told Rafael Benítez he is prepared to commit his future to Liverpool, although it will take £17m to make the Argentinian's wish become reality.
Liverpool have paid £1.5m to hire the 23-year-old from Kia Joorabchian's Media Sports Investments group for 18 months - a compromise that overcame third-party ownership problems when the midfielder moved from West Ham in January - and have an option to buy. "I'm very happy here. I feel settled and would like to play at the new stadium when it opens," Mascherano said. "I love playing for Liverpool and if the manager wants to keep me then I'd definitely stay for a long time. In the next four to five years I can see this club getting even bigger."

The Argentinian added that he had no complaints about the manager's methods. "In South America, rotation isn't such a problem," he said. "Big teams play a lot of games and that means it's necessary to use a squad rather than just 11 players. Rafa's been here for three full seasons and he's always used rotation. Why would he stop working that way when it has brought him so much success here and at Valencia?"

by **112-1077774096** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:01 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:But you keep thrashing your gland over a man who "knows everything", despite still working for a second-rate station in a second-rate footballing area.

maybe if you responded properly without the need for pettiness we could enter a discussion on this, but every post i see from you has to resort to childishness which totally nullifies what you have written above it, grow up and i might take your footballing ideas seriously, but even then why you would think that i would put your beliefs above an ex pro with a uefa coaching badge is beyond me

by **Leonmc0708** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:24 am

peewee wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:But you keep thrashing your gland over a man who "knows everything", despite still working for a second-rate station in a second-rate footballing area.

maybe if you responded properly without the need for pettiness we could enter a discussion on this, but every post i see from you has to resort to childishness which totally nullifies what you have written above it, grow up and i might take your footballing ideas seriously, but even then why you would think that i would put your beliefs above an ex pro with a uefa coaching badge is beyond me

Note to self : See if LFC can make a "WeeLandoPee" area of the forum where these two can have handbags till their hearts content, no one else can enter and no one else has to read it.

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:39 am

Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

by **Judge** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:45 am

red37 wrote:Its like the old chestnut of 'commenting on the game' from you're armchair as opposed to a seat at the ground. We've all done it/continue to do it...same as the press cuttings/articles littering cyberspace (the sensible ones). If you have a mind to and are inquisitive enough to find out and comprehend them once you do. Everybody has a voice that deserves to be heard. If i read McMahon's views on a website/forum being discussed, as long as they are his actual quotes. It doesn't really matter that you havn't heard them broadcast live as they came forth from his gob. So long as they are indeed the very same...why can't you have an opinion on them.

You lot don't see/hear me spouting bollox in the flesh - but you are capable of coming to the conclusion that it is infact just that, but written down in here instead!

red37's armchair in his front room

by **Sabre** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:39 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

Well at least we agree it's a game

by **Judge** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:42 am

you seem to both agree its football

by **radun5** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:50 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

I agree and disagree, football is a very simple game, but it is very hard to understand

by **Judge** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:50 pm

radun5 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

I agree and disagree, football is a very simple game, but it is very hard to understand

are you an american

your sentence makes no sense - contradictory

by **66-1112520797** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:02 pm

radun5 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Look, IMHO, football is a very complex game

I disagree, football is a very simple game.

I agree and disagree, football is a very simple game, but it is very hard to understand

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