The rotation thread - All "R" talk in here please!

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby Bammo » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:20 pm

The trouble with the media and fans now is that they look for rotation but not the reasons behind it. Yes, Rafa rotates a lot and no one denies that but I wonder how much is due to his tactics and how much is down to injury? If someone's willing to trawl through the stats to find out, it may be surprising.

Everyone slates Rafa if he swaps strikers around or plays Gerrard on the wing. Why doesn't Fergie get slated for rotating his forwards? What about last season when Giggs played left wing, centre mid, support striker, up front and right wing? Or O'Shea playing centre back, left back, left wing, centre mid and even as a forwardin one game? Utd won the league changing the team around and changing players' positions. It can work.

Everyone against rotation moans that we shouldn't mess with the spine of the team. Well, when fit, Reina, Finnan, Carragher, Agger, Arbeloa, Gerrard, Alonso, Pennant, Kuyt and Torres seem to start most games.

Pro-rotation people argue that players need to be fit and kept happy.

I have no problem with rotation but would rather see players in form play until they have a bad game, then get replaced. I think a major problem we have is an abundance of talent in certain areas (CM) so players need to be kept happy and a lack of talent in others (LW) where we're searching for someone who can actually play.
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:34 pm

Leonmc0708 wrote:Where is that from mate ?

I reckon the writer reads this forum, the views and stats posted on here recently are polarised in that piece.

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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:47 pm

s@int wrote:Rafa's numbers just don't add up
20:51pm 8th October 2007

Study the extended sequence of numbers below and see if you can crack this week's sporting enigma code. The puzzle is: 6, 6, 4, 7, 5, 5, 6, 2, 9, 7, 5, 5.

Any ideas? No, it's not some tedious Sudoku grid. It isn't Stephen Hawking's chassis number. It's got nothing to do with bingo either, although it is associated with a lottery of sorts.

The sequence actually details the extraordinary number of changes made by Liverpool manager Rafa Benitez in every game this season.

Following victory over Aston Villa on the opening day, the Anfield boss has chopped his personnel around so often that he is averaging more than five changes per match.

When his team is winning, this squad rotation policy can be seen as an astute management of resources. But when Liverpool struggle, Benitez is cast as a man trying to solve a Rubik's cube despite being colour blind.

Fiddling for fiddling's sake doesn't provide an answer, as another magnificent statistic demonstrates; one so startling it deserves to be served on a silver platter and accompanied by a glass of vintage red. In a total of 153 matches, Benitez has named an unchanged side only once.

So what happened that week? What was different? The momentous occasion, which deserves to be commemorated by The Kop in song, occurred last season on Tuesday, October 31, 2006 — three days after Liverpool had beaten Villa at home.

On that night, Benitez confounded everyone by selecting the same 11 against Bordeaux in the Champions League, a wild and crazy notion that was rewarded with a 3-0 victory.

Afterwards the Liverpool manager justified this behaviour, saying: 'I thought if we are playing well, we have the confidence and we have time, then we can use the same team.'

Brilliantly simple. But not so brilliantly simple that he ever tried it again. And if that was his rationale back then, are we to presume that he hasn't opted for the same line up again because his side hasn't been playing well in the intervening period? Not even after beating Derby 6-0? Or was Benitez being contrary for a more selfish reason that night?

The Bordeaux game was his 99th in charge and it is more likely his selection had less to do with fitness and more to do with him wanting to dodge headlines referring to a 'century of tinkering'.

Whatever the reasoning, all this twisting and turning is obviously not doing much good right now. It's not so much a rotation policy as a tragic roundabout.

Liverpool have picked up one League victory since September 1 and a single point from six in the Champions League.

The devil in any successful operation is in the detail and Benitez analyses the data more than most. As he sifted through the debris of another disjointed performance against Tottenham on Sunday, he spared nobody. Except himself, that is.

'We need to learn,' he seethed. 'The small details change games.' And indeed they do. The smallest of details can make the difference between a win, a trophy, a title, or absolutely nothing at all. But how can players concentrate on the small details when they are having to double-guess who will be playing alongside them week in and week out?

A team succeeds by building an almost telepathic understanding on the field, forging instinctive relationships that enable them to trust and react to one another without a second thought.

That doesn't follow when the numbers on the teamsheet look as if they have been plucked off a roulette wheel. Right now, the Liverpool players look like strangers to one another. They are spinning in and out of the team so often they are bound to be a little disorientated.

Yes, it can all click for a cup run, and there is silverware enough in the cabinet to excuse Benitez from criticism in a knockout scenario.

But the League requires consistency, team spirit, self-belief and a certainty that the best 11 equipped for the job are on the field, with reinforcements on hand if required. Isn't that how titles are won?

This Anfield scenario might sound horribly familiar. Liverpool have certainly been cursed by the revolving door approach to selection before.

In 2002, Gerard Houllier managed to go two years without sending out the same side in consecutive matches. He also had success in cup competitions but, like Benitez, never found the consistency required to succeed in the League.

History is now repeating itself and at a moment when Liverpool were supposed to have their best chance of being crowned champions in almost two decades.

Benitez is an astute, intelligent manager and even in this sticky patch of form it is worth remembering Liverpool have yet to lose a league match, so this mini slump hardly ranks as a crisis.

However, there is no doubt the manager has put himself in a difficult situation when he has to stubbornly insist his complicated calculations are right, even though they keep spewing out the wrong results. Benitez may even be close to the ideal winning formula by now but if it happened, how would anyone be able to tell?

So which prat wrote that, then?
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Postby account deleted by request » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:50 pm

Des Kelly  :p
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:53 pm

The Daily Mail:

Associated Newspapers Limited
Northcliffe House
2 Derry Street
London W8 5TT.

I'm sure they know more about it, being based so close to Anfield...
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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:54 pm

s@int wrote:Des Kelly  :p

Well old Desy-boy needs to stop chatting sh*t before he gets fired.
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Postby sgs » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:57 pm

peewee wrote:doesn't matter if it drones, its raising some very good points and should b accepted as a good piece of work, I don't see any lies there, i don't see any sensationalism, just good solid truths

What folks have failed to consider is that this year is going to be different. This year, by the end of the season the gap between the top 3 will be very few points - and the deciding factor will be the rubber games between them. That much is very clear IMHO.

What is also clear is Benitez - like any sensible person - does not believe the title can be won in October. It can be lost, but it cannot be won. At six points out with a 74% of the season left and two games to play vs the leader, he is bang in middle of the chase. So he is right.

Furthermore Benitez explicitly said that he wants to have all his players fresh for March-April-May rather than have them knackered at that point. Because that is the time when all these things are decided. Which is why he went out and spend money on getting DEPTH.

So why should the guy listen to clueless sports juournalists who want him to over-use Torres. The kid has never played in the premiership before - he hasnt taken these knocks and he has always had a nice mid season brake in the la liga, mind you. If he plays ALL these games he will hit the wall by january - and that will be £27Mm down the drain.

So instead Rafa is focusing on integrating everyone, keeping close in the chase and he will be ready to strike cometh the time.

I have little patience for these hysterics. So much was made in the past about Gerrard playing RMW, yet peeps conveniently forgot to check the actual results from that, against preconcieved hysteria. So far, Benitez knows what he is doing and the table shows that. The whole season remains up for grabs.

He needs his players to step up and the fans too....If there is any need for criticism it rather needs to be directed at players who are not pulling their weight like Stevie G and perennial whiner Crouch; and lately Carragher...
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Postby Leonmc0708 » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:06 pm

If you look on our line-ups for the last 3 league games:

These players have started all 3 games:

1 Reina
2 Arbeloa
3 Carra
4 Sami
5 Mascherano
6 Gerrard
7 Riise
8 Pennant

These have started 2 matches and came on later on in the other match

1 Torres
2 Kuyt
3 Voronin

These have started 1 match and came on later on in 1 of the other matches

1 Finnan
2 Babel
3 Benayon

These have started 1 match only

1 Aurelio

Crouch and Momo have both played in 1 match which they started on the bench.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96

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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:21 pm

sgs wrote:
peewee wrote:doesn't matter if it drones, its raising some very good points and should b accepted as a good piece of work, I don't see any lies there, i don't see any sensationalism, just good solid truths

What folks have failed to consider is that this year is going to be different. This year, by the end of the season the gap between the top 3 will be very few points - and the deciding factor will be the rubber games between them. That much is very clear IMHO.

What is also clear is Benitez - like any sensible person - does not believe the title can be won in October. It can be lost, but it cannot be won. At six points out with a 74% of the season left and two games to play vs the leader, he is bang in middle of the chase. So he is right.

Furthermore Benitez explicitly said that he wants to have all his players fresh for March-April-May rather than have them knackered at that point. Because that is the time when all these things are decided. Which is why he went out and spend money on getting DEPTH.

So why should the guy listen to clueless sports juournalists who want him to over-use Torres. The kid has never played in the premiership before - he hasnt taken these knocks and he has always had a nice mid season brake in the la liga, mind you. If he plays ALL these games he will hit the wall by january - and that will be £27Mm down the drain.

So instead Rafa is focusing on integrating everyone, keeping close in the chase and he will be ready to strike cometh the time.

I have little patience for these hysterics. So much was made in the past about Gerrard playing RMW, yet peeps conveniently forgot to check the actual results from that, against preconcieved hysteria. So far, Benitez knows what he is doing and the table shows that. The whole season remains up for grabs.

He needs his players to step up and the fans too....If there is any need for criticism it rather needs to be directed at players who are not pulling their weight like Stevie G and perennial whiner Crouch; and lately Carragher...

Very good points well put.

Although I've a feeling you're wasting your breath...  :D
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Postby parchpea » Tue Oct 09, 2007 7:46 pm

With Benitez at the helm it will always be rotation.

He is not a man to change his ways and the more we crow about it the more he will change it. Rafa is as stubborn as they come.

I honestly beleive if we all get behind his selection policy he will pick the same team every week, hes that awkward.

For what its worth I dont think he has a clue how to get hands on that league for us but Liverpool being Liverpool they will stick with him to the bitter bitter end.

The memory of our wonderful European nights with Benitez are still fresh in the memory, but those yesterdays do not win you points week in week out and until he finds the right formula domestically Rafa will always be under pressure given we are so very desperate to take that Premiership title.
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Postby Sabre » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:06 pm

The manager won't ever take seriously the press. The english press is not saying anything new the Spanish press didn't say back then about rotation. The difference is that they're more respectful. They also talk bóllocks, and give opinion from outside and without first hand info and knowledge, but at least they do not insult.



Rafa had to hear things like "Rafa who? who is this Mr Nobody?" was called clueless, the press defined rotations as a Big Wheel (1), and the press said that Rafa had less lights (intelligence) than a smuggling boat, and that rotations system failed more than a gipsy's shotgun. Of course when he won the league all that turned into praises.

He didn't change his opinion there, and he won't do that in your country, in which the manager is respected a lot more than in my country.


(1)

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Postby Lando_Griffin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:10 pm

Once again - listening to clueless people whitter on about somethign they know nothing about is a waste of time and energy.

Time will tell, and the apologies will flow...

(Well - from some people they will. :D)
Last edited by Lando_Griffin on Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby destro » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:29 pm

When Ferguson sends a letter praising Benitez’s tactical-nous to switch to a 3-1-4-2 with Didi Hamann man-marking Kaka so as to allow Liverpool to attack with freedom, then surely the ‘new tinkerman’ should be given his just dues as one of the top managers currently around, and thus not one to be rashly dispatched due to a disappointing run of draws in the league, draws that still leave the Reds in a healthy position to continue their challenge for the league unlike the previous year.

But the draws still throw up the old cliché of rotation, rotation, rotation. However a solid, stonewall fact of Benitez’s regime is that, according to Opta stats which form the basis of any statistical evidence in the Premiership, Liverpool have rotated less than United and Chelsea in the last three years. Unbelievable but true! Here is a fact that I shamelessly borrow from Liverpool fan and renowned author Paul Tomkins:

Manchester United won last season's league title with Alex Ferguson having made a total of 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at an average of 3.11 changes per game. The season before that, Chelsea won the league with Mourinho also having made 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, again (obviously) at an average of 3.11 changes per game.

So how many changes did Benitez make in 2006/07?

You guessed it, 118 changes to his Premiership line-ups throughout the campaign, at what the eagle-eyed among you will know recognise as an average of 3.11 changes per game.


A pretty good article that throws up some more fuel for the rotation fire thats burning,

Full Article
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Postby Ace Ventura » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:50 pm

sgs wrote:
peewee wrote:doesn't matter if it drones, its raising some very good points and should b accepted as a good piece of work, I don't see any lies there, i don't see any sensationalism, just good solid truths

What folks have failed to consider is that this year is going to be different. This year, by the end of the season the gap between the top 3 will be very few points - and the deciding factor will be the rubber games between them. That much is very clear IMHO.

What is also clear is Benitez - like any sensible person - does not believe the title can be won in October. It can be lost, but it cannot be won. At six points out with a 74% of the season left and two games to play vs the leader, he is bang in middle of the chase. So he is right.

Furthermore Benitez explicitly said that he wants to have all his players fresh for March-April-May rather than have them knackered at that point. Because that is the time when all these things are decided. Which is why he went out and spend money on getting DEPTH.

So why should the guy listen to clueless sports juournalists who want him to over-use Torres. The kid has never played in the premiership before - he hasnt taken these knocks and he has always had a nice mid season brake in the la liga, mind you. If he plays ALL these games he will hit the wall by january - and that will be £27Mm down the drain.

So instead Rafa is focusing on integrating everyone, keeping close in the chase and he will be ready to strike cometh the time.

I have little patience for these hysterics. So much was made in the past about Gerrard playing RMW, yet peeps conveniently forgot to check the actual results from that, against preconcieved hysteria. So far, Benitez knows what he is doing and the table shows that. The whole season remains up for grabs.

He needs his players to step up and the fans too....If there is any need for criticism it rather needs to be directed at players who are not pulling their weight like Stevie G and perennial whiner Crouch; and lately Carragher...

Will reply to this tomorrow.

Tired, drunk and not sure why Torres would be tired in October but cant be ersed thinking about it now.
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Postby tithead » Wed Oct 10, 2007 12:14 am

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