Liverpool FC Forum

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:21 pm

Listening to people with no medical background debate the cons of rotation and resting players in October is like listening to a chimp in the hope it might tell you your name:

Time consuming, and totally pointless.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:23 pm

s@int wrote:For all the talk of the level of rotation not being as bad as the bare facts would have us believe, I was just reading that this is the first time the eleven players who started the game had played together. When you consider that it was probably as strong a line up as we can put out at the moment thats a pretty strange state of affairs.

But they will have trained together for months.

Why do people truly believe the laughable notion that players walk onto the pitch having never played practice matches with their teammates?

Yes, the environment and intensity levels are different, but they're still playing football ffs.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:34 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:For all the talk of the level of rotation not being as bad as the bare facts would have us believe, I was just reading that this is the first time the eleven players who started the game had played together. When you consider that it was probably as strong a line up as we can put out at the moment thats a pretty strange state of affairs.

But they will have trained together for months.

Why do people truly believe the laughable notion that players walk onto the pitch having never played practice matches with their teammates?

Yes, the environment and intensity levels are different, but they're still playing football ffs.

It's strange, Lando. Substitutions can be made in a game, and not always due to tiredness. 3 different men in a team, can improve the team in a same match. But if you change 5 (compared to last week or midweek btw?) then they should not know play together and that explains it all.

When a signing up comes in January, you don't leave him in the bench the first day because he hasn't been playing together, in fact you bring him to improve the squad, you leave him on the bench because he hasn't trained with the team. Once he does that, you play him.

6-7 changes do affect more than 4, but 4 changes shouldn't diminish your performance when you've trained together.

And I'm not saying Rafa doesn't make mistakes. For instance Crouch against a defence like Marseilles won't be as effective as in a game like Birmingham. Some strange decissions seeing Kuyt as a RM when we have bought players that can play the position. Some disadjustments when we haven't the ball. In fact, you could mention a lot of things to improve if you like, but "4 changes" do not explain it all.

BTW, bar Kewell, who's a special case, how many muscular injuries had we the last 3 seasons?, I mean not a broken toe, or a broken knee, but muscular. I think there's out there a website that tracks the injuries right? link anyone?

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:38 pm

Sabre wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:For all the talk of the level of rotation not being as bad as the bare facts would have us believe, I was just reading that this is the first time the eleven players who started the game had played together. When you consider that it was probably as strong a line up as we can put out at the moment thats a pretty strange state of affairs.

But they will have trained together for months.

Why do people truly believe the laughable notion that players walk onto the pitch having never played practice matches with their teammates?

Yes, the environment and intensity levels are different, but they're still playing football ffs.

It's strange, Lando. Substitutions can be made in a game, and not always due to tiredness. 3 different men in a team, can improve the team in a same match. But if you change 5 (compared to last week or midweek btw?) then they should not know play together and that explains it all.

When a signing up comes in January, you don't leave him in the bench the first day because he hasn't been playing together, in fact you bring him to improve the squad, you leave him on the bench because he hasn't trained with the team. Once he does that, you play him.

6-7 changes do affect more than 4, but 4 changes shouldn't diminish your performance when you've trained together.

And I'm not saying Rafa doesn't make mistakes. For instance Crouch against a defence like Marseilles won't be as effective as in a game like Birmingham. Some strange decissions seeing Kuyt as a RM when we have bought players that can play the position. Some disadjustments when we haven't the ball. In fact, you could mention a lot of things to improve if you like, but "4 changes" do not explain it all.

BTW, bar Kewell, who's a special case, how many muscular injuries had we the last 3 seasons?, I mean not a broken toe, or a broken knee, but muscular. I think there's out there a website that tracks the injuries right? link anyone?

Glad to see some people can understand things...

Physio Room

There you go lad.

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:57 pm

One thing I will say is that Rafa needs to seriously use his substitutions better.

Recently his answer to not scoring seems to be throw Voronin or Kuyt on and play them our of position on the wing. Suprise suprise it doesnt work.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:02 pm

s@int wrote:For all the talk of the level of rotation not being as bad as the bare facts would have us believe, I was just reading that this is the first time the eleven players who started the game had played together. When you consider that it was probably as strong a line up as we can put out at the moment thats a pretty strange state of affairs.

That's technically true, mate, but by my maths 9 out of 11 of them (Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Arbeloa, Pennant, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres) have played together quite a lot--especially since Agger and Alonso have been injured. So, I don't think playing Riise at LM and Voronin up top disrupted the team chemistry in and of itself.

As for it being about as strong a team as we can field at the moment, I would agree but, interestingly, the two real debating points concerning that statement relate to the two players I've mentioned above: Riise and Voronin. Based on my "best 11" poll, neither of these lads would be considered our best option in their respective positions by many of us on here. I bring this up to highlight the fact that even if we opt for picking a settled side over the next few matches to regain some sense of stability (regardless of whether those matches occur in the league, the CL or the CC) there's still a big question mark over who should be selected at LM and who should be selected to partner Torres.

So, would people be content if Rafa kept his rotating to those positions only or would they prefer to see him pick one player for each of those positions and stick with him for a run of matches?

by **LFC2007** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:31 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
s@int wrote:For all the talk of the level of rotation not being as bad as the bare facts would have us believe, I was just reading that this is the first time the eleven players who started the game had played together. When you consider that it was probably as strong a line up as we can put out at the moment thats a pretty strange state of affairs.

That's technically true, mate, but by my maths 9 out of 11 of them (Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Arbeloa, Pennant, Gerrard, Mascherano and Torres) have played together quite a lot--especially since Agger and Alonso have been injured. So, I don't think playing Riise at LM and Voronin up top disrupted the team chemistry in and of itself.

As for it being about as strong a team as we can field at the moment, I would agree but, interestingly, the two real debating points concerning that statement relate to the two players I've mentioned above: Riise and Voronin. Based on my "best 11" poll, neither of these lads would be considered our best option in their respective positions by many of us on here. I bring this up to highlight the fact that even if we opt for picking a settled side over the next few matches to regain some sense of stability (regardless of whether those matches occur in the league, the CL or the CC) there's still a big question mark over who should be selected at LM and who should be selected to partner Torres.

So, would people be content if Rafa kept his rotating to those positions only or would they prefer to see him pick one player for each of those positions and stick with him for a run of matches?

1) You say you agree that the team fielded against Spurs was the best available, however, your best eleven (as of 4th Oct.) contained Kuyt. Unless Voronin's performance against Spurs has changed yor mind, if so, how and why?

2) I'm not sure about the injury to Aurelio, but I'd certainly prefer him on the left to Riise at this moment in time. Kewell seems to be perennially injured, and as such can feck off.

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:35 pm

starting riise at left mid yesterday was a mistake.

we still desperately need a top class left winger. babel isn't really a left winger in a 4-4-2 and our hope of kewell being fit this season has completely gone, so we're looking slightly stuck.

by **dawson99** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:43 pm

but why rest torres and then play him in carling cup? why when a player does well, or did at beginning of season, get rotated. theres loasd of mistakes like that happening. now torres form has dropped and no one seems to know what they are doing

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:56 pm

LFC2007 wrote:1) You say you agree that the team fielded against Spurs was the best available, however, your best eleven (as of 4th Oct.) contained Kuyt. Unless Voronin's performance against Spurs has changed yor mind, if so, how and why?

Actually, I was agreeing with Saint's notion that it was just about the best available team. I don't prefer Riise at LM but I'll address that below. Also, all other things being equal, I think I'd prefer Aurelio to Arbeloa at LB. But, all other things are not equal: Arbeloa's slotted in well at LB all season and Aurelio is short of match fitness, hence I went with the Spaniard in my Best 11 submission on Oct. 4th because we need that stability and continuity at the back.

As for picking Kuyt ahead of Voronin in that same Best 11, I'd still stick with that but, TBH, it's not like I think the Dutchman's miles ahead of Voronin at the moment. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that they are in a virtual dead heat in terms of getting into my Best 11 (Crouch is 4th by some distance, based on current form). I guess the real question, then, is who works better with Torres and, long term, I think that's Kuyt. But, if Voronin and Torres strike up a real understanding, I would have no hesitation to drop Kuyt down the pecking order.

2) I'm not sure about the injury to Aurelio, but I'd certainly prefer him on the left to Riise at this moment in time. Kewell seems to be perennially injured, and as such can feck off.

You know, I've never been convinced by Aurelio at LM. Sure, he can put in a lovely cross but he rarely tries to get behind the fullback and he often resorts to crossing from deep positions, much like Finnan does on the rare occasions when he plays RM. To me, both think like a fullback--which, I can't fault them for since they are fullbacks

--and that hinders their play when they line up as midfielders. Riise, I think, does manage to think like a wide midfielder when he plays there but, unfortunately, he only has a couple of tricks in his locker to get past a fullback and his crosses are too inconsistent. He's a good solid option when we want to keep things tight down our left flank but he doesn't offer enough going forward and, as we've seen, that's where our problems lie at the moment. So, with Kewell a virtual write-off at this point and with Leto not quite up to playing in the league, IMO, that leaves Babel and Benayoun. With Babel you get pace and directness, with Benayoun you get guile and cleverness so pick your poison. Personally, I'd be inclined to give Babel a run of games to see just what he can do. The worst that happens is that we confirm what some of us suspect: that he's no winger. On the other hand, his pace, directness and willingness to go for goal might inject some life into our attack. If, it's not working with him after 3-4 games then I would give Yossi a chance to make the position his own. If that fails I would be getting the cheque book ready for January.

by **Leonmc0708** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:00 pm

dawson99 wrote:but why rest torres and then play him in carling cup? why when a player does well, or did at beginning of season, get rotated. theres loasd of mistakes like that happening. now torres form has dropped and no one seems to know what they are doing

change the record.

by **dawson99** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:02 pm

well answer the question? i just dont get it, but thanks for the great response. every time i ask it people start arguing and my posts are lost.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:10 pm

dawson99 wrote:well answer the question? i just dont get it, but thanks for the great response. every time i ask it people start arguing and my posts are lost.

I think Rafa played Torres in the Carling Cup to get the team's momentum back after 3 indifferent results. Had we beaten Brum I doubt Torres would have even traveled to Reading.

As for Torres losing form, I don't agree. He's still playing well and creating chances...he's just not converting all of those chances, which is the way of things with most strikers and is certainly the way of things with Torres, according to lots of people that have seen him play (and, no, I don't just mean Sabre). I don't think his head's dropped or anything, though, and he's still working hard for the entire 90+ minutes. Rotated out of form? Not the case, IMHO.

by **dawson99** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:12 pm

ok, thanks bad bob.

im not completely anti rotation. but i just believe in getting momentum with the asme team. of course we dont know about injuries or training or personal probs etc etc but there just seem a lot of strange changes that people dont get and players out of position and stuff... all fans are just frustrated

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:14 pm

dawson99 wrote:ok, thanks bad bob.

im not completely anti rotation. but i just believe in getting momentum with the asme team. of course we dont know about injuries or training or personal probs etc etc but there just seem a lot of strange changes that people dont get and players out of position and stuff... all fans are just frustrated

Yes, the level of frustration is apparent and I I'm frustrated as well. I think the number of changes may be a bit OTT but I'm curious to know who you'd say is being played out of position?

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