Liverpool FC Forum

by **red37** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 4:31 pm

Just a word of apology if anyone notices their post has gone off the thread. If it contained a quote from that WUM - ive tidied 'em up a bit.

red.

by **The Grudge** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 5:43 pm

Lando_Griffin wrote:Here it is - the thread Sabre and a few others have requested.

Here you can give your opinion on the most controversial subject in the history of Newkit.

Be prepared to back up your points, be prepared to be told you're a div, and keep those fingers off the "report this post to a moderator" button.

Do that, and this will be a good thread.

I think Rafa's ways will lead us to the League. I think rotation is his masterplan, and although I am baffled by his decisions at times, he knows more about it than I do, so I simply place my trust in the bloke.

Now then - debate.

I think rotation works at times and other times it fails!

As Rafa says himself there is no mention of rotation when we get a good result...to me though the word is overused and is to often to easily used to hit the manager with when sometimes other factors are involved!

For example and i dont mean to be repetative...I dont think that anyone can blame rotation on the result against Marsielle the other night!There is no way i could blame the change of a few players on ten out field players playing so badly and unlike themselves!They were lazy,not up for a fight and basically amateur looking.The players simply did not perform and the more i have thought about it i would put it down to arrogance....Kind of a 'we dont get beaten at Anfield in Europe by the likes of Marsielle'mentality
The players never fought hard enough or tried enough...not one was fit to wear the shirt!
It was a shock result but at times they happen...It was not Rafas fault and after watching it again no arguement will ever convince me otherwise!

My biggest worry about rotation though is that in a way it has the potential to take away the competitive edge within the squad.Players seem to feel that they have no need to give 100% because its only gonna be a matter of time before they get a game.In a way i think a few feel they have no real need to perform because the will get a run out regardless....If this is the case its a sad story of some players mentalties!

After that game the other night if i was Raffa i would have brought them into training and showed them videos of past glories and the passion,commitment and hard work that won them all.....
Then i would have told them that every single one who plays needs to give 100% every time they are on the pitch and if they dont,simply they will be sold on in January.

Rafa may be over rotaing a bit,granted but when the players start looking like Liverpool players again i think it will take the spotlight off this word we all hate so much!

R...O...T..A...T...I...O...N<------- :eyebrow

by **Ciggy** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:22 pm

I am getting sick of talking about it now TBH.

by **RichardLFC1** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 6:54 pm

To be honest i think rotation would work but not the way rafa does it. We have been in games with our best 3 players missing which i tihynk is a no no. If he wants to rotate dont rotate all at the same time so we are playing a :censored:

team. The game where we rested both Gerrard and Torres v Portsmouth i think was a bad descion. Not only was Torres high in confidence because of the week before scoring twice against derby but because he then played a strong side against Porto which shows maybe where hes priorities lie.

However Rotation could work in a good way if we had a full squad to select from i.e Alonso Agger Kewell wasnt injured then he could give a couple of players a few more game in appose to say changing 6 or 7 players

by **gato_busta** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:16 pm

The problem with rotation is that its a point that fans can join up against. People that dont like Kuyt take advantage of rotation when he has a bad game to say "he should'nt have played, Benitez and his rotation, choose one team and stick with it blah blah blah". The same goes for every player in the team. Everyone has a different starting 11 as we can see in the thread that was made for that. Some people like Xabi, some prefer Mascherano, some hate Crouch, some love Riise and so on so forth. So instead of having everyone bashing each other about their favorite players saying they should be sold as soon as the transfer market opens up again, why not blame it all on rotation?

Looking at the lineups in our last games, they look very strong but the problem is that due to injuries and red cards
(Pennant), there has been more rotation than people are led to believe. We have had key players out injured and have others injured at the moment. Xabi is, like it or not, a key player and one that will start constantly, as is Agger. Im not goint to post our lineups again as I have already done so in the Xabi vs Masch thread for the games that were a draw but we had fielded probably our strongest team available at the moment in those 3 games. Most of the rotation in the last few weeks have been because of necesity.

This last game against Marseille people complain once more about rotation. I think Benitez put the right formation on the field although for some reason the players decided to attack on the last 5 minutes. Leto had a good game against Reading and is probably the only player right now that can cross the ball in from the left (as many people say Riise and Babel can't do so) and since Pennant was not available, probably the only player in the team that could reall cross a ball from the wings. Crouch was brilliant last season in Europe so having him besides Torres was again for me the right choice (He had a better game than torres IMO). Would Mascherano have made a big difference? I dont think so, although I would have played Leiva in the middle with Gerrard as he can spot a pass better than Sissoko and Mascherano and do a good job in a holding midfield role.

I support rotation, I just think we have been unlucky with injuries which seriously affect our possible formations and also our recent results are affecting the players performance.

by **JohnBull** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:22 pm

Is he going to start rotation in training as well ? Injuries happen there, the poor little buggers get tired there,it might start raining and they'll catch a cold there.
FFS these players don't even have to worry about paying their bills, the club provides staff to manage their finances, social lives, money spinning appearances etc etc etc. They are then asked to play a couple of games a week and need a rest

With a couple of exceptions most people largely agree on our best side - stick with it !!!

Any player who needs a rest a couple of games into the season needs more than multivitamins and a couple of pro-plus.

Injuries happen to rested/knackered/fed-up/cheesed off/looking for a move players, rotation doesn't make the slightest bit of difference. It just breaks up any pattern that might be forming.

by **bigmick** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:24 pm

On balance I think the scale which Rafa practises rotation is ridiculous. I've got a revolutionary new concept, forget rotation and lets go back to "dropping" people if they don't perform. Not, "it's not your turn this week" but "you'd better sit on your erse this week son and for the forseeable, and while your sitting their give some thought as to why you played sh!te last week".

Lets go back to the concept of a first team, which you are currently either in, or your not. If we want to be modernist, lets talk about a first 13 if you like. You see you can put haf a side out and still win comfortably, Man Utd spanked Wigan 4-0 today. It's easier though if you do it Home (not away to Portsmouth) and it's also much easier if you've won your previous six or whatever they have.i

by **JohnBull** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:37 pm

One point that keeps coming up is the success that the rotation system has brought in the knock-out comps under Raffa.

Anyone can win a knockout cup, ANYONE !!!! Not anyone can win a league over 40 matches. That can't be done with luck or chance. To win the league takes consistency and consistency and continual rotation do NOT go together.

by **bigmick** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:43 pm

Leaving the R out for a sec', I'd be pulling Crouch into the office and telling him nose to nose (admittedly I'd have to make sure he was sitting down) to pull his head out of his erse and sharpish. Don't be sitting there wondering when it's going to be your turn son, because you ain't gonna get a fecking turn. Them days are over big man.

You are gonna be on the bench for the forseeable, and if when we are fecking desperate you'll get chucked on. In the meantime, every day in training and every minute while you're awake you'd better prepare for that moment, because when it comes your career as a Liverpool player, an International and everything else you've worked for over the last two and a half years is on the line right there.

Now stop fecking sulking and start being a man son, you're fecking doing my head in.

Back to basics.

by **gato_busta** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:46 pm

To win the league you need a strong, large squad. This is why midtable teams always start out well and towards the middle of the league they end up over 30 points behind the first places. They don't rotate their players and they don't have good enough players on their bench. I guess that consistency and sticking with the same starting 11 do not go together either.

by **roberto green** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:51 pm

bigmick wrote:Leaving the R out for a sec', I'd be pulling Crouch into the office and telling him nose to nose (admittedly I'd have to make sure he was sitting down) to pull his head out of his erse and sharpish. Don't be sitting there wondering when it's going to be your turn son, because you ain't gonna get a fecking turn. Them days are over big man.

You are gonna be on the bench for the forseeable, and if when we are fecking desperate you'll get chucked on. In the meantime, every day in training and every minute while you're awake you'd better prepare for that moment, because when it comes your career as a Liverpool player, an International and everything else you've worked for over the last two and a half years is on the line right there.

Now stop fecking sulking and start being a man son, you're fecking doing my head in.

Back to basics.

Yep indeed well said.

Has Rafa told you he is saying this to Crouchy? i know with you being good buds with Rafa lol.

No seriously Crouch is believing his own hype and what the jornalists are saying about him.I think he should just stop and remember....

The only person that stuck by him for his first 4 months when he couldnt hit a barn door was erm.........

Who was it again?

by **roberto green** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 7:56 pm

gato_busta wrote:To win the league you need a strong, large squad. This is why midtable teams always start out well and towards the middle of the league they end up over 30 points behind the first places. They don't rotate their players and they don't have good enough players on their bench. I guess that consistency and sticking with the same starting 11 do not go together either.

Very good point raised here.

But i still go for the idea of if we rotate and dont get results at the start come the end of the season its all well having fresh players, but when your 20 odd points adrift whats the point.Thats why i think we do better in cup compititions. :grinning:

by **gato_busta** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:03 pm

roberto green wrote:
gato_busta wrote:To win the league you need a strong, large squad. This is why midtable teams always start out well and towards the middle of the league they end up over 30 points behind the first places. They don't rotate their players and they don't have good enough players on their bench. I guess that consistency and sticking with the same starting 11 do not go together either.

Very good point raised here.

But i still go for the idea of if we rotate and dont get results at the start come the end of the season its all well having fresh players, but when your 20 odd points adrift whats the point.Thats why i think we do better in cup compititions.

I think this is the first season when we will really be able to say if rotation works or not. Our squad was not large enough in previous seasons for successful rotation yet it now is. If we end the season 20 points behind than I guess that will prove rotation did not work. IMO we'll just have to wait and see.

by **JohnBull** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:06 pm

gato_busta wrote:To win the league you need a strong, large squad. This is why midtable teams always start out well and towards the middle of the league they end up over 30 points behind the first places. They don't rotate their players and they don't have good enough players on their bench. I guess that consistency and sticking with the same starting 11 do not go together either.

This is NOT a "very good point" The lads referring to those early season flyers with small squads.
There is nothing wrong with having a big squad but you don't have to use the whole lot every couple of games. If a teams is winning then leave it. Wait till there's an injury or loss of form before changing and if the reserve doesn't like it - tough he shouldn't be in the squad.
It's not the managers job to keep everyone happy,it's his job to spot the loss of form and to react to it but if a team's winning KEEP IT ! and tell the reserve that when his chance comes GRAB IT !!!
The money we've spent and the wages we're paying they should do as they're told.

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Oct 06, 2007 8:09 pm

This "rotation" is really becoming everyone's first choice catchphrase when talking about Liverpool. But be honest , it NEVER gets discussed when they are playing well.

Bottom line is that there when 11 players pull that shirt on and start for LFC surely to god they must understand each others game . they train day in day out with each other it just boils down to sometimes were consistant enough.

That's the problem. Forget the talent sitting on the bench, look at the talent on the pitch its full of internationals i know it sometimes leaves us scratching our heads and wondering why they couldn't nick a goal even against the likes if Birmingham . That's not got a damn thing to do with rotation. It's got to do with how well the team can execute their plan and no amount of rotation debate will change that.
For the record, the rotation didn't seem to to effect Torres. he was the best player on the pitch when he came on so it doesnt seem to effect his emotional state. Peter Crouch was rotated alot last season too but it didnt seem to hurt his goal record. Pennant, Alonso, Mascherano ...

all of Liverpool's players have had to deal with rotation and I would seriously challenge anyone to point to someone's poor individual form and blame rotation.

ITS DOWN TO POOR FORM

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