Liverpool FC Forum

by **JohnBull** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:27 pm

Mick
There are loads of football streams in China at the moment - as long as you log on a few hours early and put your buffering up to max you should be able to see the latest rubbish live.

I'll PM you with some of the best streams if you need them. Don't blame me if the games get your BP through the roof . I'm doubling up on my Beta Blockers every game- I'm sure the St Johns Ambulance have put extra staff on just for me - it's only a matter of time now !

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:31 pm

Oh I almost forget the new one which is starting to creep in. If you're anti rotation you are anti "team selection". Presumeably this refers to changing the team to counter the opposition. Hmmmmm.

Time to spell out once more my position. I don't believe you should play the same team in every single game. I think players should be rested when the timing is appropriate, and to give a rough idea of scale i think any more than two changes per game is excessive. Ideally, you should try and play broadly the same team in every game but obviously as the fatigue and injuries come in, you have to adjust your team accordingly (rotate if you prefer the term).

I'm anti-rotation in principle ont he scale that Rafa employs it becuase it is absolutely fecking ridiculous. However, while it is true to say nobody will get close to winning the Premiership changing the team like that, nobody has ever won the English League by playijg the same eleven every week either.

Somebody posted up that the Mancs have made 12 changes in eight matches. Don't know if thats true, but if it is then bring rotation on I'm all for it. That Ferguson is such a fecking Dinosaur isn't he?

by **LittleHobo** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:32 pm

i applaud the maker of this thread for his positivity

but i just think we are still 3 players short of a real challenge

and that worries me after 4 years with rafa at the helm

by **LFC2007** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:32 pm

bigmick wrote:There's no question that the media influences opinion Sabes. I hope that throughout all of the debate visa vis rotation I've tried to remain broadly sensible, accomodating to the other peoples point of view etc but unfortunately, we don't get the same accomodation from many of the pro's.

Disloyalty/fickleness. This is the first resort of those that seek to diminish their opponent in a discussion. You can't disagree with the manager bacause it's disloyal. You're a bandwagon jumper, a glory hunter, you love Steven Gerrard.

Tabloid reader. If you disagree with Rafa, you believe every word in the tabloids and every word on the footie shows. You didn't come to the conclusions you came to by yourself because you are a numpty. Andy Gray, all those ex players and managers, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, everybody in fact who disagrees is also wrong. Rafa though, is right.

It's because you don't go to the games.

Rotation, regardless of how many changes you make, regardless of who those rotated people are, and regardless of who you are playing against has absolutely no effect whatsoever, nil, nado, zip, none on the fluency of the passing and movement of the team.

67 changes to the team in twelve matches is perfectly fair and reasonable. Over egging it a bit? Nah.

International breaks tire our players out and they need rest. As none of us spend time on the training pitch at Melwood, any observations visa vis rest periods are completey non sensical to make, and instantly render the commenter a numpty.

All non rotationers want to play the same eleven players every week. Just like we did in the old days. Most people who beleive Rafa over rotates the team are in fact over 83 years of age.

We won the Champions League because of rotation. Infact all the good performances over the last three years are becasue the players have been fresh, leaping around like Gazelles. The bad performances however, were nothing whatsoever to do with rotation. Obviously.

Those who oppose rotation also opposed zonal marking. Therefore they have been proven wrong once and are clueless.

Having an idea of how good you think the team is in relation to the other teams in the league, and an idea of where you hope to finish at the end of the season is ridiculous. You should just see what happens.

Each time you sign a couple of players, it's not until the end of the following season that the signing can be judged success or failure. As long as the manager signs a couple fo players per season, he should be given a job for life.

Last season, 21 points behind the Champions was a fair reflection on how good we are. Infact, rotation helped us get there. Also, it helped us put out the Champions of Spain and England on the way to the Champions league final. We beat both teams because we were so much fresher, sprinting around and mentaly sharp. When Chelsea were palpably the stronger, fitter team in extra time at Anfield though, and when ilan outran us in the final, that was not a failure of the rotation system. It was just one of those things.

I'm all for people not rowing with each other but really, it is hard to take some arguments seriously sometimes.

I have no idea what you're trying to get at with this post.

by **bigmick** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:33 pm

JohnBull wrote:Mick
There are loads of football streams in China at the moment - as long as you log on a few hours early and put your buffering up to max you should be able to see the latest rubbish live.

I'll PM you with some of the best streams if you need them. Don't blame me if the games get your BP through the roof . I'm doubling up on my Beta Blockers every game- I'm sure the St Johns Ambulance have put extra staff on just for me - it's only a matter of time now !

Cheers JB I'll give em a go mate. That said, I've never yet got one of the feckers to work

by **javi_atletico** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:38 pm

I think this season you can win the Premiership perfectly. You have one of the best team in Europe nowadays with Gerrard, Torres, Alonso... and the perfect manager. What he tries with rotations is to have all players in perfect conditions and you have more than eleven excellent players.

That system was the succes of Sevilla here in Spain. Juande Ramos had 2 very good players per position so he could rote them and the team continued playing so good. This year is being differetn for them, Puerta died and something doesn´t go on but I think they will be the same team than 3 months ago.

You must be careful in Champions League because now you are the thirds but I think it´s possible to finish the seconds unless so you could continue in the competition and why not to win it:;):

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:43 pm

Benitez denies Liverpool unrest
Updated 2 hours ago

Rafael Benitez has dismissed claims that Liverpool's dip in form is a result of the club's recent internal management changes.

Liverpool have won just two of their last six games, culminating in Wednesday's shocking performance in their Champions League defeat at home to Marseille.
It has been suggested that the bad run has coincided with the departure of Benitez's assistant manager Paco Ayestaran, following a break-down in the relationship between the pair after a decade working together in Spain and England.

But as Benitez prepares his side for Sunday's Premier League clash with Spurs at Anfield, he said the behind-the-scenes upheaval is not the cause of the current slump.

Ayestaran was well liked, particularly by the Spanish-speaking contingent among the squad, and has not been replaced.

Instead Benitez has spread his former colleague's work-load among the rest of his coaching and technical staff.

The Liverpool manager said: "I do not believe that the management changes have affected the situation.

"We have been analysing the data regarding our players and we are running more, covering more ground and our physical condition is fantastic.

"With regards to the coaching, I was coaching with the team before. I am not a traditional English manager sitting in an office, I am always on the pitch with the players.

"I was on the pitch before, I was on the pitch today and I will be on the pitch tomorrow."

Benitez also insisted that Steven Gerrard's recovery from injury is not hampering the midfielder.

He said his captain will play against Spurs and be available for England's crucial Euro 2008 qualifiers.

But the Spaniard, who on Sunday will be without full-back Fabio Aurelio due to a calf injury, admitted he must take responsibility for the current problems while equally dismissing complaints about his rotation system.

He said: "The Marseille match was a very bad game for us, everybody was poor, from front to back.

"Everybody must take responsibility for that defeat, me, the players, the staff, everyone. But I accept that the main responsibility is mine.

"Everybody talks about rotation only when we lose, not when we are winning.

"I don't really like rotating, but I just do it because of the amount of competitions we are involved in. People need to rest."

He added: "We need to improve but it is not a situation that runs deep. We have only lost once, we were winning and scoring goals earlier in the season.

"For the last game people were bad in attack and bad in defence. We must put that right.

"All the players and the management want to do their best for the team, everyone wants to win and we know what it means to the fans when we do not.

"I take a lot of the responsibility because I am the manager. The manager, the captain, the team, we all take some of the responsibility.

"But I must be positive because I am the manager. You do not win trophies by dropping your head and crying all the time.

"But people must not forget we are in a very good position. Just one defeat.

"That was a very bad game but I do not think that will be repeated this weekend. We have talked about things, and we know we are a much better team than last season."

Benitez also hit out at the level of criticism he has suffered in recent days.

He said: "I have read the criticism, but it is easy to talk when you are a long way away in London. We are here with the players every day, we know the situation better."

Benitez also defended Sebastian Leto and Mohamed Sissoko after their displays against Marseille.

He said: "I do not want to talk about one player, that is unfair. But some of them who are being criticised I will support. They do not hide, they may give the ball away and make a mistake, but they still keep going, still keep trying and working hard.

"These players kept trying, and at the age they are I still think they are doing well."

Even Benitez doesn't like rotation

by **Wilhelmsson** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:47 pm

javi_atletico wrote:I think this season you can win the Premiership perfectly. You have one of the best team in Europe nowadays with Gerrard, Torres, Alonso... and the perfect manager. What he tries with rotations is to have all players in perfect conditions and you have more than eleven excellent players.

That system was the succes of Sevilla here in Spain. Juande Ramos had 2 very good players per position so he could rote them and the team continued playing so good. This year is being differetn for them, Puerta died and something doesn´t go on but I think they will be the same team than 3 months ago.

You must be careful in Champions League because now you are the thirds but I think it´s possible to finish the seconds unless so you could continue in the competition and why not to win it:;):

I’m not convinced what works in Spain necessarily will work here in England. I can’t claim to have an in-depth knowledge of the league, but from what I have seen of the Spanish league, it seems to contrast the English Premier League in a variety of ways.

Maybe mass rotation works in Spain, but doesn’t work in England?

by **account deleted by request** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:52 pm

BigMick if you're in a car going down the motorway, and you think you're going the wrong way, you can tell the driver, but if he continues driving along the same way, what can you do but sit back and enjoy the ride.

by **javi_atletico** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:54 pm

Wilhelmsson wrote:
javi_atletico wrote:I think this season you can win the Premiership perfectly. You have one of the best team in Europe nowadays with Gerrard, Torres, Alonso... and the perfect manager. What he tries with rotations is to have all players in perfect conditions and you have more than eleven excellent players.

That system was the succes of Sevilla here in Spain. Juande Ramos had 2 very good players per position so he could rote them and the team continued playing so good. This year is being differetn for them, Puerta died and something doesn´t go on but I think they will be the same team than 3 months ago.

You must be careful in Champions League because now you are the thirds but I think it´s possible to finish the seconds unless so you could continue in the competition and why not to win it:;):

I’m not convinced what works in Spain necessarily will work here in England. I can’t claim to have an in-depth knowledge of the league, but from what I have seen of the Spanish league, it seems to contrast the English Premier League in a variety of ways.

Maybe mass rotation works in Spain, but doesn’t work in England?

Why not? I agree that the style of play isn´t the same. Here in Spain a few teams make rotations but I think it can work in England, in Spain and in the rest of the countries. I mean, the rotations give to the players something (I don´t know how to say it in English that they feel important but at the same time they know if they don´t work hard they won´t play

by **Scottbot** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 9:57 pm

taff wrote:I havent started a topic for a long time but I feel compelled to after reading some of the topics on here. Now I dont want this to be a "Taff is in the glass half full camp" but lets just relax and look at the "season" so far

We havent lost in the league. With the new signings etc and we havent particularly set the world on fire so far but the fact remains that we havent lost. After Derby the league was a certainty, Man Utd terrible start, Chelsea hitting the self destruct button and Arsenal without that Mr Henry guy. Now its a different story, a crazy Spaniard rotating too much and its all over. ITS ONLY JUST OCTOBER.

The CL, well we were bad no excuses. What else can I say to be honest. Just hope we get the points in the rest of the games and other results go our way.

I have genuine optimism this season as we have a strong squad and the old cliche of it being a marathon not a sprint. Take the genius of Sven, will he be competing for CL place next April, while people will ridicule that statement why then do we doubt Liverpools longevity for the season.

I am not happy with everything and some players do get on my nerves but Ive seen enough seasons now to know not to get wound up before xmas, and this year I will put money on us being in the race come the new year.

Dont fall for the media hype as it changes daily. Imagine the headlines next May if we are top with calls for Ferguson etc to rotate more and stop being naive that you need a squad and rotation etc etc etc.

I trust Rafa of course but he will make mistakes. We sometimes get rose tinted about the past. I recommend you look at previous seasons in detail, Liverpool and other clubs who won the league and look at how tight it generally is and the mini slumps etc that EVERYBODY goes through. Paisley, genius that he was also had little slumps and mini crisis times but a season summary showing goals will not paint that picture.

To summarise: If I am either right or wrong bring this post up around April, I stand by my belief that we will be there.

It's a good post Taff. It's not been a great couple of weeks but the club are still in pretty good shape.

I know it's all if's, but's and maybe's but i wonder just how different the tone of post would be on here if we had beaten Milan in the European cup final last May? Very different i'd imagine. I read articles about Rafa 'living off of Istanbul for long enough now' and about fans losing patience and it seems that the achievement of reaching last years final has been consigned to the dustbin or left most people's memories all together. just a thought really.

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:05 pm

I almost feel sorry for Rafa if I am honest we have had the unfortunate injuries to two of our most importnat players Alonso and Agger.

But if he wasnt a stubborn old goat and swallowed his pride now and again holds his hands up and says Hey I got it wrong.
Maybe a lot of people in their critisim's would be a lot kinder and say fair play.

I dont want him to leave he is the best manager we have had IMO since Kenny and I am extremly greatful for all he has done for us.

He could be one of the greatest Liverpool managers ever if he cuts out his mistakes.

Will he though?

Thats the question.

I dont enjoy being critical about him I dont enjoy it and if I where sat in a pub and a none Liverpool fan abused him I would go for him.

At the end of the day we all only want whats best for the club and whats worrying is we dont know anything about these new owners, our club has always been patient where managers are concerned I would hate it if the new owners went looking elsewhere after everything Rafa has brought to the club.

I just feel he is putting unessary pressure on himself, maybe the clubs gone a lot bigger now with the new players and their fancy cars, latest wag on their arms, some thinking they are better than they actually are, and getting complacent.
Rafa has always worked on a tight budget at Valencia his other clubs and here to some extent maybe its a learning curve for him also.

I want him to be our manager for the next ten years, its always hurtfull when Real Madrid come sniffing my @rse goes.
If he can cut out the silly mistakes swallow his pride then there is no reason why he shouldnt be our manager for the next 10 or so years.

Its up to him the ball is in his court.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:27 pm

Sam the Eagle

by **Ciggy** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 10:30 pm

LFC2007 wrote: Sam the Eagle

Heimdall

by **redtrader74** » Fri Oct 05, 2007 11:33 pm

bigmick wrote:There's no question that the media influences opinion Sabes. I hope that throughout all of the debate visa vis rotation I've tried to remain broadly sensible, accomodating to the other peoples point of view etc but unfortunately, we don't get the same accomodation from many of the pro's.

Disloyalty/fickleness. This is the first resort of those that seek to diminish their opponent in a discussion. You can't disagree with the manager bacause it's disloyal. You're a bandwagon jumper, a glory hunter, you love Steven Gerrard.

Tabloid reader. If you disagree with Rafa, you believe every word in the tabloids and every word on the footie shows. You didn't come to the conclusions you came to by yourself because you are a numpty. Andy Gray, all those ex players and managers, Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, everybody in fact who disagrees is also wrong. Rafa though, is right.

It's because you don't go to the games.

Rotation, regardless of how many changes you make, regardless of who those rotated people are, and regardless of who you are playing against has absolutely no effect whatsoever, nil, nado, zip, none on the fluency of the passing and movement of the team.

67 changes to the team in twelve matches is perfectly fair and reasonable. Over egging it a bit? Nah.

International breaks tire our players out and they need rest. As none of us spend time on the training pitch at Melwood, any observations visa vis rest periods are completey non sensical to make, and instantly render the commenter a numpty.

All non rotationers want to play the same eleven players every week. Just like we did in the old days. Most people who beleive Rafa over rotates the team are in fact over 83 years of age.

We won the Champions League because of rotation. Infact all the good performances over the last three years are becasue the players have been fresh, leaping around like Gazelles. The bad performances however, were nothing whatsoever to do with rotation. Obviously.

Those who oppose rotation also opposed zonal marking. Therefore they have been proven wrong once and are clueless.

Having an idea of how good you think the team is in relation to the other teams in the league, and an idea of where you hope to finish at the end of the season is ridiculous. You should just see what happens.

Each time you sign a couple of players, it's not until the end of the following season that the signing can be judged success or failure. As long as the manager signs a couple fo players per season, he should be given a job for life.

Last season, 21 points behind the Champions was a fair reflection on how good we are. Infact, rotation helped us get there. Also, it helped us put out the Champions of Spain and England on the way to the Champions league final. We beat both teams because we were so much fresher, sprinting around and mentaly sharp. When Chelsea were palpably the stronger, fitter team in extra time at Anfield though, and when ilan outran us in the final, that was not a failure of the rotation system. It was just one of those things.

I'm all for people not rowing with each other but really, it is hard to take some arguments seriously sometimes.

I might just be me, but over the last few days you have gone from reasoned poster, to talking utter sarcastic BO77@cks. Nobody has said anything like this post. Most of the posters defending rotation don't think its great having 67 changes or whatever it is, all have said they have been perplexed by some of the selection. The reason i and some others reply against the anti rotationalists ( i will stop using that, but can't think of a better description right now) is because most of them have decided the blame for the recent performances is down solely to rotation. You actually were open to rotation 2 weeks ago(your thread) and were also open to other factors also being responsible, but have now seemed to join the ranks of the unreasoned and put the blame on only ONE FACTOR.

Now its obviously your perogative to change your mind, but that post, sarcastic or not, shows a hell of a lot of backtracking, for example previously you accepted that we took our foot off the pedal last year in the league for the CL,and now you use the 21 point thing to beat the manager with.

Nothing personal Mick, but this place is feeling like a place full of moaning Spurs and scum supporters (they are inherently born with a fickle, whinging gene, but it looks as though some inter-breeding has taken place), it is only October, i agree we've played poorly and WE ARE ALL dissappointed with the last 3-4 games, and some of it might be down to team selection, but if you've seen the Marseille game, you'd have also seen the lack of; effort, ball control and making 10 yd passes, and surely that has nothing to do with the dreaded 'R' word.

I am sure of one thing if we let Rafa go this year the rest of the league will be p!ssing themselves, and forming a disorderly queue to get his signature.

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