Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:40 pm

Cheers S@int for that info. I agree it's necessary to talk about something, especially when we win and there are not pages and pages of angry fans

The mods are doing a great job, an Alonso thread and there's peace and everything.

by **adamnbarrett** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:40 pm

Let's have a look at the games we've not had Alonso in and the one key thing here for me is:

Look at the amount of times we have given the ball away. This is why our attack falls flat on its face. With Alonso we keep the ball better in my opinion. The stability with him in the team when going foward is just not there.

Those stats may say that mascherano is the better passer but mascherano only passes the ball square and backwards. He only plays safe balls, not audacious passes that can create an opening offensively. People don't notice what he actually does for the team. Even look at Torres's goal against Chelsea, yes it was Gerrard who played the ball through for Torres but who headed the ball down for Gerrard? yes you've guessed it Xabi Alonso.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:48 pm

adamnbarrett wrote:Let's have a look at the games we've not had Alonso in and the one key thing here for me is:

Look at the amount of times we have given the ball away. This is why our attack falls flat on its face. With Alonso we keep the ball better in my opinion. The stability with him in the team when going foward is just not there.

Those stats may say that mascherano is the better passer but mascherano only passes the ball square and backwards. He only plays safe balls, not audacious passes that can create an opening offensively. People don't notice what he actually does for the team. Even look at Torres's goal against Chelsea, yes it was Gerrard who played the ball through for Torres but who headed the ball down for Gerrard? yes you've guessed it Xabi Alonso.

But who passed the ball square to Gerrard to create our only genuine chance of the second half against Porto......... Yes you guessed it Macherano. Who's the one with an assist to his name........ Mascherano. To say he is only a destructive player isn't giving full credit to Mascherano's game. He doesn't make the same number of "Hollywood balls" that Alonso tries, but he does get forward. Mascherano is a decent header for his size too.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:04 pm

I think it's not fair to say that Mascherano's game is completely safe. In the last game's second half for instance he opened well the game left and right, his distribution game is good, and choses the right pass (not only a ok not lost ball but good balls) often. Despite I agree Alonso is able to do that better, I don't think we should say Mascherano is a "simple pass" always like, say, Hamman.

Some posters think that I rate Alonso because his former past in RS. In a way, they're right. Normally the guys that leave your club are hated (I hate Manchester City's Garrido) but Alonso's case is different because he came to the only club it wouldn't hurt to me. But as I said, it did impress me to watch a team that was crawling in the mud, saved by Alonso's skills when recovered him from the segunda division loan spell. Only to see him putting a small team in the verge of winning a league the next season.

Since I can see perfectly the shít it was RS midfield before and after Alonso, I could observe the quality he provided. To spot that quality in a team crowded with quality like Liverpool is tougher, as the differences between players are not of many miles.

Alonso's quality was more evident when he came to Liverpool, as apart from Gerrrard, who's different, the quality of the other midfielders was not as good. Right now, we can talk forever about Mascha's and Alonso's attributes, but, I don't think the differences are abismal, in some aspects of the games one is stronger and viceversa.

In some games I genuinelly put Mascherano before Alonso, and viceversa. That's pretty much what Rafa did in the Chelsea CL legs, and that's what I think he'll keep doing.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 8:54 pm

Sabre wrote:Alonso's quality was more evident when he came to Liverpool, as apart from Gerrrard, who's different, the quality of the other midfielders was not as good. Right now, we can talk forever about Mascha's and Alonso's attributes, but, I don't think the differences are abismal, in some aspects of the games one is stronger and viceversa.

This, to me, is the important point and the reason why I--despite being a massive Alonso fan--don't think we're missing him that much. When Lampard broke Xabi's foot in his first season his absence was massively felt because of the gulf in class between him and his replacement (I'm thinking here more of the likes of Biscan and Diao than Hamann, who was playing loads because Gerrard was also out injured for good chunks of that season). This time, we have excellent alternatives in the form of Mascherano and Sissoko (not to mention a raw but promising prospect in Leiva, who can be called in if needs be).

What troubles me is the notion that any one player--be it Alonso, Agger, Torres or even Gerrard--is the difference between the team putting in sparkling vs. pedestrian performances each week. To be sure, each of the named players have qualities that are missed when they aren't on the pitch but the mere absence of any one of them, IMO, is not in itself an explanation for a poor performance. "We would have won if Alonso were fit" rings as hollow to me as "we would have won if Rafa had played Torres". We might have done but there's no way of knowing if that one player's absence was the difference. So, rather than chalk up recent mediocre performances to Alonso's (or Agger's) absence(s), I prefer to wonder why the 11 highly-skilled and previously-effective players who did play didn't quite manage to do the business? Admiring and acknowledging Alonso's qualities when they aren't presently on display is all well and good, but let's not go so far as to say that a team with the quality that Liverpool now possess can't get on without him for a few weeks.

As a final comment, I'd also say that there's one other way in which I don't think we're missing Alonso. Perhaps this one is from a more selfish perspective but the timing of Alonso's injury--i.e. just as the whole rotation furor has resurfaced--at least meant that the two 'brigades' didn't have to add the dreaded Mascherano v. Alonso dimension to an already heated discussion of Rafa's selection decisions.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:04 pm

s@int wrote:
adamnbarrett wrote:Let's have a look at the games we've not had Alonso in and the one key thing here for me is:

Look at the amount of times we have given the ball away. This is why our attack falls flat on its face. With Alonso we keep the ball better in my opinion. The stability with him in the team when going foward is just not there.

Those stats may say that mascherano is the better passer but mascherano only passes the ball square and backwards. He only plays safe balls, not audacious passes that can create an opening offensively. People don't notice what he actually does for the team. Even look at Torres's goal against Chelsea, yes it was Gerrard who played the ball through for Torres but who headed the ball down for Gerrard? yes you've guessed it Xabi Alonso.

But who passed the ball square to Gerrard to create our only genuine chance of the second half against Porto......... Yes you guessed it Macherano. Who's the one with an assist to his name........ Mascherano. To say he is only a destructive player isn't giving full credit to Mascherano's game. He doesn't make the same number of "Hollywood balls" that Alonso tries, but he does get forward. Mascherano is a decent header for his size too.

Mascherano's "Assist":

Is this an assist?

Not in my book...

by **Lando_Griffin** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:09 pm

s@int wrote:
adamnbarrett wrote:Let's have a look at the games we've not had Alonso in and the one key thing here for me is:

Look at the amount of times we have given the ball away. This is why our attack falls flat on its face. With Alonso we keep the ball better in my opinion. The stability with him in the team when going foward is just not there.

Those stats may say that mascherano is the better passer but mascherano only passes the ball square and backwards. He only plays safe balls, not audacious passes that can create an opening offensively. People don't notice what he actually does for the team. Even look at Torres's goal against Chelsea, yes it was Gerrard who played the ball through for Torres but who headed the ball down for Gerrard? yes you've guessed it Xabi Alonso.

But who passed the ball square to Gerrard to create our only genuine chance of the second half against Porto......... Yes you guessed it Macherano. Who's the one with an assist to his name........ Mascherano. To say he is only a destructive player isn't giving full credit to Mascherano's game. He doesn't make the same number of "Hollywood balls" that Alonso tries, but he does get forward. Mascherano is a decent header for his size too.

Who's the one with 2 goals in less games?

Who's got the least bookings?

Xabi Alonso.

AFWIW, the Porto game was utter gash, and Mascherano's inability to retain possession and then use it was one of the biggest disappointments on the night.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:55 pm

Bad Bob comments, half joking, half seriously :

As a final comment, I'd also say that there's one other way in which I don't think we're missing Alonso. Perhaps this one is from a more selfish perspective but the timing of Alonso's injury--i.e. just as the whole rotation furor has resurfaced--at least meant that the two 'brigades' didn't have to add the dreaded Mascherano v. Alonso dimension to an already heated discussion of Rafa's selection decisions.

The impartiality of the mods is beyound doubt. There's no need you sit on the fence, when everybody knows you're an Alonso and Rafa brigadist, somewhat rotationalist, and... and... a bit red-tinted-glassed-ist.

Kidding. Top post that, Liverpool aren't a one-man squad.

by **woof woof !** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:01 pm

Sabre wrote:
As a final comment, I'd also say that there's one other way in which I don't think we're missing Alonso. Perhaps this one is from a more selfish perspective but the timing of Alonso's injury--i.e. just as the whole rotation furor has resurfaced--at least meant that the two 'brigades' didn't have to add the dreaded Mascherano v. Alonso dimension to an already heated discussion of Rafa's selection decisions.

The impartiality of the mods is beyound doubt. There's no need you sit on the fence, when everybody knows you're an Alonso and Rafa brigadist, somewhat rotationalist, and... and... a bit red-tinted-glassed-ist.

Kidding. Top post that, Liverpool aren't a one-man squad.

Wish you would credit your quotes.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:11 pm

Granted. In this case I thought it was obvious as it was in the same page, but it's indeed a good thing to do.

by **woof woof !** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:19 pm

Sabre wrote:Granted. In this case I thought it was obvious as it was in the same page, but it's indeed a good thing to do.

Sometimes Sabre , (and i'm sure it's happened to you) you pick up on the last post in a thread , see a quote and wonder " where did that come from?" Nobody wants to start reading a thread from beginning to end in order to establish what or whom a quote relates to.

The simple courtesy of referencing a quote makes life a little easier for all .

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:28 pm

There are quite a lot of people on here who kind of want it all ways round at the moment and it's quite good in that it gives us all something to talk about, but it does throw up some interesting questions.

1. And this has been troubling me for a bit now. If, as we are led to believe, it is Ok to make five and six changes every game without having any effect whatsoever on the fluency, cohesion and effectiveness of the team then how is it the omission of one player (even given the accepted fact his replacement is a very fine player in his own right) can so catestrophically destroy the whole unit?

I'm not saying for one minute that Alonso is not a good player, and nobody can seriously deny that his absense has coincided with a form slump, although whether it is infact due to his absense is something of a moot point. I do have trouble with the pro-rotationists however, on the one hand talking about squad games and the rationality of leaving your best striker on the bench, while in the next breath claiming that a different player is entirely irreplaceable. It doesn't really add up for me to be honest.

My hunch is and always has been that football is more of a team game. The best TEAM normally wins and the difference between a team playing really well and a team struggling is often a bunch of tiny little things added together. When it all goes well it's like a well oiled machine, grinding out the wins regardless of performance. When it goes wrong, merely keeping the ball is a mission and the same players can totally lack confidence. Now at the moment we are in the latter category and I don't think anybody would dispute that. Alonso's non-appearance has had an effect, but it is one of a whole raft of reasons (Gerrards injury and the over-rotation being the main two). For Alonso's fans to pretend that his inclusion alone would suddenly render us the fluent attacking unit we saw against Chelsea is dillusional IMHO.

by **AB's Red Army** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:34 pm

[QUOTE = bigmick]For Alonso's fans to pretend that his inclusion alone would suddenly render us the fluent attacking unit we saw against Chelsea is dillusional IMHO. [/quote]

Who is suggesting that?

What I'm personally suggesting is that the distribution of the ball would had been better with Alonso in the side over the last couple of games.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:38 pm

I have another question. Number two if you like. Given that we have been resting our players more than the other teams, why do we have to wait until the end of the season for it to have an effect? Can we expect to see some geater verve, awareness and spark in the games against Arsenal and Tottenham from the likes of Torres? If the answer is no, and the reason it's no is because the Arsenal and Tottenham players are not sufficiently fatigued yet to allow the resting to really have an effect, why then are our players sufficiently tired to need a rest in the first place

Just a thought of course.

by **bigmick** » Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:41 pm

AB's Red Army wrote:Who is suggesting that?

What I'm personally suggesting is that the distribution of the ball would had been better with Alonso in the side over the last couple of games.

Just to clarify AB so I know what I'm arguing about, when you say "the distribution of the ball would have been better" do you mean the distribution by the whole team as a unit, or that Alomso himself would have distributed the ball better than Masherano?

If it's the second one, how significant do you feel the improvement in distribution by Alonso would be on the overall fluency of the team?

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