Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:21 am

dawson99 wrote:are we missing garcia?

Most definately. When you are playing sh!te you need somebody who can do something on his own and Luis was the man for that. I would also venture that if as seemingly is the case, we intend not playing Torres in a significant number of games and we have no intention of playing Babel up top, we are also missing Bellamy. There is absolutely no question that without even a modicum of pace up front, we can look extremely pedestrian at times.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:22 am

Can I just say I think people missunderstand Sabre with English not being his native tongue, his english is better than mine

but some people twist his words into something else he isnt being sarcastic its just lost in translation but he doesnt need me to say it people should use common sense on this one.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:27 am

Ciggy wrote:Can I just say I think people missunderstand Sabre with English not being his native tongue, his english is better than mine but some people twist his words into something else he isnt being sarcastic its just lost in translation but he doesnt need me to say it people should use common sense on this one.

No Ciggy, he's very clever at coming accross the way he does, playing dumb and naive doesnt wash with me.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:30 am

Bamaga man wrote:No Ciggy, he's very clever at coming accross the way he does, playing dumb and naive doesnt wash with me.

I dont think so mate, you should hear my dutch with a scouse accent I sound welsh

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:32 am

Thanks Ciggy. Bamaga man, I'm not naive, nor an angel, but we've been able to talk footie for a while this months, let's keep it that way. Please.

As an add on to the previous post, sorry for being a bit of a t!t and being over flippant but I can't help it sometimes. Though I've said that the selection against Birmingham was more than sensible (which it was), to pretend that the chopping and changing is not having an effect on the way we are performing is patently bonkers in my opinion and I have trouble being serious actually debating it.

Bigmick. I grant that too much changes affect the fluency. More even so, at the start of the season it affects even more, and I've always agreed not to rotate too much at the start of the season.

However, bigmick, Birmingham at Anfield with Steve Bruce putting even the bus in the goal?? we should have won even with Sissoko instead of Gerrard, Hobbs for Hyypia, and the second keeper. It can't affect that much to not beat that team. If you draw them, then there's more than rotation, there's a bad performance.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:39 am

If you draw them, then there's more than rotation, there's a bad performance.

I actually agree with you on this Sabre, anyway Mick was up for "sensible tinkering" during this match, Fickle get.

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:43 am

Sabre wrote:However, bigmick, Birmingham at Anfield with Steve Bruce putting even the bus in the goal?? we should have won even with Sissoko instead of Gerrard, Hobbs for Hyypia, and the second keeper. It can't affect that much to not beat that team. If you draw them, then there's more than rotation, there's a bad performance.

Totally agree on that score and that's why I advocated "getting the rotation out of our system" and playing all the blokes who don't normally play. I had the Argentinian winger, Lucas, Benayoun, Babel up top, feck it, give em all a game and we'll beat Brum I said. I was wrong.

Worst thing is, we weren't even unlucky. We were just very very poor. My contention is though Sabes that the rotation in the previous games, even the ones in which we played well and won, is having an accumulative effect. You're right though, nothing wrong with the team for the last game. Those players, regardless of what has gone before should be ashamed of themselves for that performance.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:06 pm

Liverpool's benching of Fernando Torres is sending out all the incorrect signals

Sep 24 2007 COMMENT by Ian Doyle, Liverpool Daily Post

IT was as glaringly obvious as the hideous blue coat worn by Birmingham City co-owner David Sullivan in the directors’ box on Saturday.

As the disgruntled Liverpool supporters streamed away from Anfield after another afternoon of frustration, the question on their lips was the same.

Why hadn’t Fernando Torres been playing from the start?

For the second weekend in succession, Liverpool started a Premier League game with the club record signing on the bench. And for the second weekend in succession, they were held to a damaging goalless draw.

Rafael Benitez’s rotation policy will always leave him open to criticism whenever his team fail to produce an expected victory.

But even by the Spaniard’s standards, his treatment of compatriot Torres since the international break earlier this month has been somewhat curious.

At every available opportunity, the Liverpool manager has been at pains to point out the priority for his team this season is in ending a championship drought that stretches back to 1990.

Their flying start to the campaign – top of the table with 11 goals in four matches – seemingly underlined this change in emphasis.

So fans could be forgiven for being flabbergasted when Benitez then restricts his £18million star striker to two late Premier League cameos inside a week with his team firing blanks.

All four of Liverpool’s strikers were given a run-out at the weekend as Benitez desperately sought the key to unlocking a packed Birmingham defence.

Yet in the half-hour he was on the field, Torres demonstrated a greater threat than Dirk Kuyt, Andriy Voronin and the again peculiarly overlooked Peter Crouch combined.

The overhead kick that whistled narrowly beyond Maik Taylor’s crossbar was one of few moments of concern for the Birmingham goalkeeper and hinted at what might have been had Torres been on from the start.

Having Torres on the bench so early into the season sends out all the wrong signals. Portsmouth’s defenders were delighted not to face the Spaniard, and no doubt Birmingham’s felt the same.

Benitez’s explanation that the former Atletico Madrid man was left out because Birmingham’s deep-lying defence wouldn’t allow the space in which the striker could utilise his pace holds some water until the realisation that, with most visiting teams likely to adopt similar tactics, such logic would suggest Torres barely starts a home game.

In many respects, perhaps the one team that will prevent Liverpool from winning the Premier League is themselves.

Certainly, with Manchester United and Chelsea facing off the following day, it was a chance for Anfield side to stretch the gap on at least one of their main title rivals.

They missed it. And with Arsenal ominously striking a rich vein of form, it could be some time before Liverpool return to the top of the table.

Some would argue that Benitez’s team selection smacked of arrogance, fooled by the flimsy resistance previously shown by the other promoted teams, Sunderland and Derby County.

Birmingham, though, are much tougher cookies, built in the image of their manager Steve Bruce, and their stubborn, organised defensive performance ensured a deserved point.

In fairness to Benitez, with the absence of Torres from the starting line-up one of only two changes from the midweek draw in the Champions League, there was at least continuity elsewhere in the team.

Perhaps the manager was giving his players a chance to make amends for the poor performance in Porto, where Liverpool were fortunate to return home with a 1-1 scoreline.

Following his sending-off in Portugal, Jermaine Pennant had most to prove. But against his former club on Saturday, the winger worked hard for little reward and ended a forgettable week hobbling off clutching his hamstring.

On the other flank, Ryan Babel continues to acclimatise to life in English football and could consider himself unlucky to be the man replaced when Torres was introduced on 60 minutes.

Steven Gerrard still appears less than 100%, and while Javier Mascherano was typically industrious, Liverpool lacked the drive from midfield to break down Birmingham’s back line in a performance that truly never got going.

Four points behind Arsenal already, Benitez would be advised to start picking his best team in the Premier League. Otherwise, it won’t just be Sullivan’s coat that is blue in Anfield.

[url=http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2007/09/24/liverpool-s-benching-of-fernando-torres-is-sending-out-all-the-incorrect-signals-64375-198
36279/]http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk/liverpo....9836279[/url]

by **The_Rock** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 12:51 pm

dawson99 wrote:are we missing garcia? someone who can turn things around and win a game?

maybe its the midfield where the magic should be happening anyways and the strikers can just slot the goals home

We are not missing garcia...we are just missing a decent LW....

Pennant is doing his job on the RW....If someone can compliment him on the LW...we will stretch teams apart.

Then you can see the real gerrard bull-dozing down the centre to score spectacular goals...

I can't believe rafa bought babel as a LW.....I mean...it was so evident that he is a support striker. :no

by **Owzat** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:31 pm

Ciggy wrote:
Sabre wrote:Very good player? yes. World Class player? My árse

But he is better than Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin so therefor he has to be starting ahead of them and them three rotated, or even taken off.
We need to stick with the same strike partnership Torres/Crouch, Torres/Kuyt, Torres/Voronin.

Look at Spurs, Defoe is always a sub because Berbatov and Keane play well together.

Adebayor and Van Persie,
Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, (Tevez) doesnt fit in with the mancs 4-3-3 game.

Drogba starts every game when fit.

And so should Torres for us.

Not sure spudz is a good example given their season so far, reading Jol's comments that "Defoe can only replace Keane" just shows how some of these managers think.

And don't mention A*****or, I brought in Van Persie into my fantasy team instead of him thinking VP was a better bet......................... Still I brought in Toure and Fabregas so two out of three ain't bad.

It's fair enough to say we should have beaten Brum at home regardless who walked out, what is frustrating is the games we need to go all out to win seem to be lacking a certain F.Torres in the starting XI. Are we just like spudz in buying our record signing and then using him as a sub?!?!?! The other similarity is both Bent and Torres were used to playing as the star striker in a smaller club and not warming the bench.

And like spudz a lot of our goals this season came against Derby............................

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:32 pm

We need someone who can create chances rather than just being able to run for ever. We can grind teams down, we can capitalise on defensive errors, we can throw the ball into the box and hope, we can score from sublime passes from Gerrard, or great shots from outside the area, what we can't seem to do very well is create chances through guile, imagination, clever skills, subtle little passes etc etc. The only goal I can remember this season that fell into the latter catagories was Babel's. Kuyt will run all day and probably all night if you asked him, but he is not a second striker by any normal standards, he his very one footed with a poor first touch and little creative ability, who is playing that role because his lack of pace makes it difficult for him to play as the main striker.

When teams defend in depth against us we seem to run out of ideas after about 15 minutes, and fall back on the tried and tested hit enough shots and hope one flies in. We need a creative second striker, Torres is not god and can't score goals from nothing every week. Even great strikers need chances to score but average strikers can score given the right chances.

I dont think its coincidence that strikers come to Anfield look like they couldn't score in a brothel, move on and start scoring regularly again. The only striker thats flourished is Crouch and I would argue thats more due to his style than our creative flair.

So blame rotation, blame Rafa , blame the team for not trying, then get a creative second striker and watch the goals go in.

Look at the Mancs, they have had a steady progression of creative second strikers going back to Cantona, Sherringham, York, Scholes , Rooney and now Tevez. Or better yet look at us in our glory years, Stjohn, Keegan, Dalglish, Beardsley...... even Macmanaman, who Fowler attributes over a quarter of his goals to, was never winger in the accepted sense, preferring to make a great pass rather than crossing.

Garcia supplied a little of what we need, but he had a few problems both with the physicality of the league and being inconsistant in his performances.

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 2:44 pm

I'm pretty certain at the start of the season Rafa thought he had built a team large enough and with enough quality to be able to rotate and still keep a high level of football. I have to admit before the International break if you had asked me i would have said we have the strongest squad in the Premier league, probably not the strongest eleven but certainly the strongest overall squad. I still believe we haven't suddenly become a bad squad overnight and this is purely a loss in form we normally suffer around November. We can play ourselves threw this blip which at the end of the day is 2 draws in the league and 1 draw in the Champs lge (2 of them away games and tricky grounds).

We lost form quickly and we can regain it quickly but to do this we have to play our way back into it and to achieve this Rafa has to get Torres into the starting line up and take it from there. Torres is our only striker who can score a goal from nowhere. If that over head kick had gone in you may as well closed the goal of the season award there and then as it was some effort. Torres is pivotal to our campaign this season and regardless to whom we are playing in the league the lad should be starting the game and taken off once the game is won.

Im putting Saturday's game as a bad day at the office and hopefully we will put it right in the next league game. We have only played 6 games and have still made a better start then we normally do so its not all doom and gloom. We are playing sh#te and not losing or conceding goals from open play so god help everyone else when we start to click.

We have Reading on Tuesday and this is the opportunity for players such as Levia to get a run out and prove they are capable of playing in the first team.

by **AB's Red Army** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:01 pm

Though I've said that the selection against Birmingham was more than sensible (which it was), to pretend that the chopping and changing is not having an effect on the way we are performing is patently bonkers in my opinion and I have trouble being serious actually debating it.

Why is it bonkers? Is it because you and and half of our supporters believe it to be, thus it must be correct?

So all those years ago when the articulate suggested that the world was not flat, an opinion that went against the majority, they were wrong because they weren't in the majority?

No I don't think it's bonkers or undebatable. Our recent slump imo has been more affected by the international break than the rotation system.

by **hello_red** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:01 pm

I for one am not that worried, every team draws and recieves shock results. We should not sack Rafa, but then again Voronin and Kuyt should never play together again!

We are msiing Xabi and Agger and Torres should start every game in the league!

by **stmichael** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 3:08 pm

Torres looked more dangerous in his half hour than Voronin or Kuyt did all game.

I don't know what the reason behind it all whether its the International break or rotation but players such as Gerrard who are normally regular 8 out of 10 players are putting in performances no better then 6. I know its early but for me every point counts and games at home against Birmingham should be home bankers. Arsenal have gained another 2 points on us and was again we are part of the chasing pack. I dont think its tiredness which is the issue but just a collective lack of form by too many players.

We dont know the story with Torres. Has he got a knock and isnt able to play a full game or what?. If its purely rotation to let other strikers get a game then Rafa is dropping one almighty boll#ck because without Torres upfront we are void of ideas.

I agree with the posters earlier in the thread where we have certain players who shouldnt be rotated unless injured. Reina, Carra, Agger, Mascherano, Gerrard, Pennant and Torres should all be first names on the team sheet with the other 4 places up for grabs.

Once the players start getting tired then they can be subbed during the game to be given a rest but playing a different striker partnership every game isnt helping anyone.

We have Reading coming up in the Carling Cup. This is the opportunity to rest players but not in the Premier lge where every point is vital.

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