Liverpool FC Forum

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:16 am

Sabre wrote:
Ciggy wrote::angry: Grrrrrrrrrrr its monday and I still havent calmed down

When I've read your new signature I couldn't help to laugh, in a good way.

Peewee, the serious part is the one I highlighted in bold, I was trying to make a joke about the "camps" and "brigades" that we take it too seriously sometimes.

And no, Rafa is not fickle for doing that, he just is saving you the frustation of seeing Torres play too much! A draw game against Birmingham is bad enough. But a draw game with the classical bad day of Torres (you still haven't seen him enough) would really do Ciggy's head in!

*Seriously* Let's all chill down a bit.

i am chilled mate

i would like to say to a lot of people on here "i told you so" but then it saddens me that i am in a position to say that.

but with regards to the brigades mate, sadly some of us see things differently, maybe some of us are more passionate so feel it more than others, maybe we care more, or maybe the others are just relaxed about anything. but its infuriating when people refuse to see whats right in front of their own eyes.

and torres mate, i dont think i would get tired of watching him play, his overhead was sublime on saturday

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:26 am

No, just talking with more perspective than you, Dawson,I've seen him more than 6 games, in fact, I've seen him more than 6 seasons. I've seen him fustrating nights in the Spanish Squad and in Atletico. Lots of them. Failing 4 sitters. ANd yes, he's done excellent games so far, except the last week, but that doesn't mean he'll be scoring goals like the Chelsea one week in week out. I wish he does, but I don't think he will.

Sociedad bias? that's old bóllocks. I wish Torres the best, but I don't overrate him. I wish Rafa the best despite being a ex Real Madrid man, and I wished Morientes and defended him the best despite being a Madrid man. Funny thing is that if I defended Torres too much you'd tell me I defend anything Spaniard :laugh:

The Torres is not playing shout has gone a bit too far, if you ask me. Very good player? yes. World Class player? My árse

by **112-1077774096** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:29 am

Sabre wrote:Very good player? yes. World Class player? My árse

best we have got in that position

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 9:54 am

Basically after bad performances and poor results we have to agree with the 'happy clappy' brigade that it doesnt matter as Rafa is a 'genius'

Its complete bollox it really is because the 'bandit brigade' will eventually come round to the idea that Rafa's methods of rotation are silly, especially this time of the season when there is no real need baring injuries.

If Rafa carries on with this people will see through it surely and see its failing us, those same people who thought Houllier was taken us places at the begining of his tenure, they soon turned on him.

I dont want fans on the boards to turn on Rafa but at least see the arguement from an objective point of you, but no they stick to their guns making excuses and whenever we have a bad result some will say Rafa is a genius. :oops:

Like I said before though for me Saturdays game was largely down to the players fault, they should take the brunt of the critisism, as they were very poor. I dont know what happened with them. Our strikers couldnt get into the game, Voronin was invisible out there and Kuyt frustrating for me. And this is where Rafa left himself open for critisism, in not playing Torres from the start, bad decision it really was and inexcusable. But not to some, he played midweek was one excuse, and the fact he played poor was another, but Gerrard played midweek and was poor too. Quality players like them, dont need to be dropped, rested or rotated after a midweek game or a poor performance as they are essential to our team end of.

Babel didnt supply the forwards with much and was again quiet which wouldnt of helped the Vorninator or Kuyt himself. Pennant was lively but in all honesty failed in the final third at times, I dont think he stretched their fullback wide enough but thats just my opinion, but still was for me our best performer. Gerrard was woeful and how he got MoTm I'll never know, he didnt tick, and when that happens Liverpool dont really, thats where it would be nice to see if another player can tick the team on, hense Torres.
Mascha was okay did his defensive duties well enough his passing was off at times.

Arbeloa I like, good player, he should keep Riise out of the team who only has one thing on his mind in the final third and that is to shoot, I dont think he's a very intelligent footballer atall and frustrated me on Saturday.

by **mattylfc** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:08 am

Obviously some people have gone a bit over the top but there is also some very good posts since the Birmingham game.

I was so disapointed that we drew and it took me a while to calm down to be honest. I watched the extended highlights on football first and i noticed a couple of things.

The first point is the fact that we really missed Alonso in midfield, his passing would have been key to this game as i feel that this is where we struggled most. Mascherano was excellent at winning the ball back but we were lacking in midfield when it came to opening them up. Alonso allows us to play at a higher tempo and his passing stretches teams and makes them work a lot harder, this is exactly what we needed on saturday.

Birmingham set up as expected and to be honest they played it really well. The longer the game went on, the harder the game got as they grew in confidence and we ran out of ideas.

I completely understand why people are so annoyed with Torres being left on the bench but i do see Rafas point to an extent. We saw on more than one occasion last season when Bellamy, whos main asset is pace, struggled in this type of game where there was no space in behind the defenders. I think that Benitez thought that Torres would face the same problems and decided to go for strikers who can play between the lines.

As most people would agree though, Torres has more than pace about him and would have no doubt caused more problems if he had started. Its easy to say now but maybe Rafa got this one wrong.

The second point and probably the most important is the effect that Pako has had since leaving. There is no hiding that some players have been affected greatly by his departure and i think that maybe Rafa himself would have loved to have him by his side on saturday.
Maybe Pako would have had a few things to say and would have no doubt played a major part in trying to unlock Birminghams style of play. We seemed to lack ideas when going forward and maybe this has been due to changes that have been made in training since Pakos departure.

At the end of the day, we can all argue that it was this reason or that reason that we didnt win but at the same time, i think that most would agree that the team we had out on saturday should be winning this type of game quite comfortably at Anfield, with or without Torres.

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:14 am

sabre im not gonna argue with you. weve all seen him play more than 6 games but you seem to just be waiting for him to fall on his ar$e which is just not nice.

very good fan? my ar$e

if you'd been a liverpool fan for more than since we signed some spanish players you'd see how much we have missed a striker of Torres ability (and age)

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:43 am

Well whatever we all think, lets resist the temptation to turn on Sabre as he happens to be Spanish and a defender of the rotation thing. It's a bit like them blokes who start wrecking the BMW's when Germany beat England at penalties, not a lot of point to it really.

Ultimately, it will all come out in the washing come the end of the season (and probably before I guess). It all comes down at the end of the day to how good we actually are. I have long said that in my opinion we were plenty good enough to launch a sustained title challenge last season, only selectorial silliness at the start of the season prevented us from ever being in with a shout. We were effectively out of it after the first game, as it took us a good couple of months after that to recover any sort of equilebrium whatsoever. By which time of course the winners and challengers had long since disappeared over the horizon. Having said that I was just about on my own with my opinion, probably only Peewee seemed to agree that a team which could put out the Champions of England over two legs, as well as the Champions of Europe and of Spain in the same competition ought to be capable of beating Sheffield United away given a clear run of things. Anyway, that was then but this is now.

I think that this season the team is better. If we want to get into "squads" as well, (and I don't by choice TBH because I think squads are there to cover for injuries, suspensions and extreme tiredness, not to pay Premiership Manager 2007 with real players) but if we must, then the squad is certainly stroinger as well. Benayoun is obviously better than Zenden, Babel more speedy than speedy etc etc.

So how good are we this season? Well I think that we are good enough to win the league, or at the very least to go very close to winning it. Rafa has built a club with a fantastic bunch of players and I think man for man we are the equal of any club in the Premeirship. So what if we don't, what if we scrap outr way into a distant third or fourth? Clearly one of two things would be the case. Either, I am clueless and we are actually much sh!tter than I currently beleive we are, or we would have been hindered byu many factors, not the least of which would be the constant changing of the team.

I know Sabre has indicated that if we do not make any sort of challenge for the title this season whatsoever, he may be forced to reconsider his beliefs on rotation Rafa style which is fair enough. By the same token, if we win the Premiership while employing such techniques, I'd be the happiest wrong person in the World and happy to admit it. Even if we go very close while employing mass rotation, and the players after all this "resting" are leaping around like Gazelles, exuding freshness come the end of the season it might be time for humble pie.

So I guess ultimately the question is this: How good are we really? If we should seriously have title aspirations with the current team/squad, would it represent a failure of the rotational mantra if we got nowhere near, or is it the case that we'll finish where finish on merit and rotation has nothing to do with it?

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:48 am

Edit non footie part I wrote earlier.

Bigmick asks.

So I guess ultimately the question is this: How good are we really? If we should seriously have title aspirations with the current team/squad, would it represent a failure of the rotational mantra if we got nowhere near, or is it the case that we'll finish where finish on merit and rotation has nothing to do with it?

Yes it would mean a failure of the rotation mantra, because this season we have a deep squad. The first year we hadn't got a that good squad. But we have now, unless we have 5 month injuries of players like Gerrard and Reina all together, this year I'd consider I failure not to be near the league title. And since it's a failure, it would be a failure of the Rafa approach, rotations included.

How good we are? good enough to not get nervous for a bad week. Winning a league doesn't imply to be on top the whole season. We have the word of Rafa that he'll focus on the league, we have the contracts of the important players to clearly see they believe in the idea, so let's trust them.

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:48 am

bigmick, not havign a go at him about rotation, havign a go at him coz hes still seeing torres as a spanish player, nto a livrpool player. all we wanna see is the best 11 turn up to get us 3 points.

but, if we cant beat birmingham without one striker, then we are nowhere near good enough to challenge for the league!!!

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:58 am

Everybody wants the same thing Daws' mate, its just the method getting there that causes disagreements.

Y'know it's funny, because despite what everyone keeps telling me on here about football being totally different to the way it used to be, that it's changed beyond recognition in the last five years or so (and who am I to argue?) I can't help harking back to the good old days sometimes. Thing was then, Torres and the rest of the so-called first team would have played against Pompey, and against Brum. Had we/they played like we actually did, then we would have all been calling for some rotation. Get the feckers out and get somebody in who wants to die for the shirt etc etc. That was the thing back then. I know it was a bit silly and all that, and it didn't take account of body mass index's, cholesterol levels or air miles, but the old and primitive way of motivating people was that if they didn't do the business on a saturday they would be on their erse the following week. If the team went on a bit of a run, they could be on their erse for a month never mind two games. Thank God science has come into it though, and equally thank God that we seem to be much more advanced in our scientific approach than other clubs who still use these primitive methods. Give it a few years till they all start doing it and as we've spent the last five years experimenting with it, we're bound to have a head start aren't we

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 10:59 am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well whatever we all think, lets resist the temptation to turn on Sabre as he happens to be Spanish and a defender of the rotation thing. It's a bit like them blokes who start wrecking the BMW's when Germany beat England at penalties, not a lot of point to it really.

I hope your going to keep your own house in order regarding Sabes Micky.

I'm not going to argue with you about who's the best fan. I don't come here for that. But don't moan when somebody else like Leonmc tells you you're not a match goer or you're a cockney, if you come telling other posters they're not good fans.

Works both ways Mick.

by **Sabre** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:08 am

Surprise surprise.

I edited the non footie part and answered your clear question in the previous page, bigmick

by **bigmick** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:12 am

As an add on to the previous post, sorry for being a bit of a t!t and being over flippant but I can't help it sometimes. Though I've said that the selection against Birmingham was more than sensible (which it was), to pretend that the chopping and changing is not having an effect on the way we are performing is patently bonkers in my opinion and I have trouble being serious actually debating it.

I know one or two of the "pro" brigade have got a bit hot under the collar about the use of the word "tinkering", or the suggestion that rafa changes the team without lots of consideration and thought. I'm as guilty as any of the "anti's" with my "all the names in a hat", "selectorial silliness" and the like, but I do of course concede that Rafa is extremely meticulous in the way he approaches the thing.

My point is though that surely it's possible to analyse too much? This nonsense about leaving Torres out because he had studied videos and Birmingham defend deep. Feck me Torres'll never get a game at Anfield if we only play him against teams who defend high up. What's next, only playing Gerrard against teams who don't tackle, dropping Carragher because teams put crosses in? No I'm sorry, nobody wil convince me that what we do is anything other than shooting ourselves in the foot unnecessarily. If we overperformed and I could see the results of all these sacrificial selections then I'd be the first to go back on my views, but I can't.

Unfortunately for us, we are in the thick of and in some cases behind our rivals despite having had by an absolute distance the easiest start out of all the bigger clubs. The season is a long way from being over, but we are going to have much trickier batches of games than the ones we have just come through and we are going to ned to play far better than we are a the moment or we could be out of it quicker than you think.

by **Ciggy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:16 am

Sabre wrote:Very good player? yes. World Class player? My árse

But he is better than Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin so therefor he has to be starting ahead of them and them three rotated, or even taken off.
We need to stick with the same strike partnership Torres/Crouch, Torres/Kuyt, Torres/Voronin.

Look at Spurs, Defoe is always a sub because Berbatov and Keane play well together.

Adebayor and Van Persie,
Rooney, Ronaldo, Saha, (Tevez) doesnt fit in with the mancs 4-3-3 game.

Drogba starts every game when fit.

And so should Torres for us.

by **dawson99** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:17 am

are we missing garcia? someone who can turn things around and win a game?

maybe its the midfield where the magic should be happening anyways and the strikers can just slot the goals home

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