Liverpool FC Forum

by **woof woof !** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:07 pm

Chinese gangmasters have caused massive problems for the U.K. - Morecambe Bay for example.

How does that translate into a major threat ? .

:laugh:

by **Ciggy** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:17 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Chinese gangmasters have caused massive problems for the U.K. - Morecambe Bay for example.

How does that translate into a major threat ? .

Who the Cockle pickers :laugh:

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:38 pm

redtrader74 wrote:I said major problems, the advent of these 'homegrown' terrorists have massively affected all of us, from how we take holidays, to huge increase in security which in turn is paid by our taxation, causing death and distruction on a large scale. Remember many attacks have been foiled. This does not compare with a few cocklers not getting back before the tide.
Eastern europeans crime is a fairly new phenomenon, i was comparing immigrant groups who came to the UK at the same time, some which have in general have succeeded, and others which have not. Even the bull about black crime makes me laugh, 'teachers are racist' 'the school system cannot handle young black men' My point is that all these immigrants faced the same barriers, yet some groups chose to integrate and succeed, and the others put up the fences and choose to blame racism for failing.....excuses.

I consider chinese gangmasters, eastern European gangmasters and Jamaican yardies as "major problems" for our country. You pointed out that one specific group was causing major problems, well I consider gangmasters, exploitation and the drug trade as MAJOR problems for the U.K. You suggested that crime was particularly low in certain ethnic groups, and that in another it was higher, well there are many ethnic groups that cause crime in the U.K. - problems that cause "major problems" to our society - like drugs - exploitation - illegal immigration - the sex trade. It's not the odd cockle picker - these are widespread problems that are affecting us seriously. Is the drugged up lunatic on Heroin who murders two people in a rage not as serious?

I still don't know which specific group you are referring to, if you actually mentioned it then it may be clearer. Presumably you mean young Muslims, well there are plenty of Muslims who do integrate. It's not specifically one group, it's certain people within that group who choose not to integrate. And since the population of Muslims in the U.K. is greater than any other religion bar white Christians then the proportion who don't integrate will be higher.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:39 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
Chinese gangmasters have caused massive problems for the U.K. - Morecambe Bay for example.

How does that translate into a major threat ? .

How about you read the text in the box where it says "Major problems".

:laugh:

by **woof woof !** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:35 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Chinese gangmasters have caused massive problems for the U.K. - Morecambe Bay for example.

How does that translate into a major threat ? .

How about you read the text in the box where it says "Major problems".

You're right , Chinese cockle pickers are not a major threat they are as you say only a MAJOR PROBLEM.

:laugh:

. Another nugget to be treasured .

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:36 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
woof woof ! wrote:
Chinese gangmasters have caused massive problems for the U.K. - Morecambe Bay for example.

How does that translate into a major threat ? .

How about you read the text in the box where it says "Major problems".

You're right , Chinese cockle pickers are not a major threat they are as you say only a MAJOR PROBLEM.

. Another nugget to be treasured .

No, gangmasters are a major problem, if you read the words correctly without jumping on the bandwagon you may actually pick up in these nuances.

Almost forgot....... :laugh:

by **woof woof !** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:11 pm

LFC2007 wrote:No, gangmasters are a major problem, if you read the words correctly without jumping on the bandwagon you may actually pick up in these nuances.

Nuances , that would suggest their is a degree of subtlety to your posts which there plainly isn't. As for bandwagon , thats rich coming from someone who's constantly blowing a trumpet (their own).

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:29 pm

woof woof ! wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:No, gangmasters are a major problem, if you read the words correctly without jumping on the bandwagon you may actually pick up in these nuances.

Nuances , that would suggest their is a degree of subtlety to your posts which there plainly isn't. As for bandwagon , thats rich coming from someone who's constantly blowing a trumpet (their own).

Well my post clearly stated that gangmasters are a major problem, Morecambe bay being one prime example. You chose to pick up on the issue for the sake of a petty jibe, which is your forte and you have done before in other threads. Blowing my own trumpet? Where have I said I am the don corleone and that everyone else is wrong? I've shown plenty of humility in my opinions I agree with some points and with others I disagree - that's what debate is, if you choose to misinterpret that as blowing my own trumpet then that's your problem and something I cannot influence.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:43 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:I said major problems, the advent of these 'homegrown' terrorists have massively affected all of us, from how we take holidays, to huge increase in security which in turn is paid by our taxation, causing death and distruction on a large scale. Remember many attacks have been foiled. This does not compare with a few cocklers not getting back before the tide.
Eastern europeans crime is a fairly new phenomenon, i was comparing immigrant groups who came to the UK at the same time, some which have in general have succeeded, and others which have not. Even the bull about black crime makes me laugh, 'teachers are racist' 'the school system cannot handle young black men' My point is that all these immigrants faced the same barriers, yet some groups chose to integrate and succeed, and the others put up the fences and choose to blame racism for failing.....excuses.

I consider chinese gangmasters, eastern European gangmasters and Jamaican yardies as "major problems" for our country. You pointed out that one specific group was causing major problems, well I consider gangmasters, exploitation and the drug trade as MAJOR problems for the U.K. You suggested that crime was particularly low in certain ethnic groups, and that in another it was higher, well there are many ethnic groups that cause crime in the U.K. - problems that cause "major problems" to our society - like drugs - exploitation - illegal immigration - the sex trade. It's not the odd cockle picker - these are widespread problems that are affecting us seriously. Is the drugged up lunatic on Heroin who murders two people in a rage not as serious?

I still don't know which specific group you are referring to, if you actually mentioned it then it may be clearer. Presumably you mean young Muslims, well there are plenty of Muslims who do integrate. It's not specifically one group, it's certain people within that group who choose not to integrate. And since the population of Muslims in the U.K. is greater than any other religion bar white Christians then the proportion who don't integrate will be higher.

I wish you would read my post in its context, the comparison was between people who arrived at the same time to this country, over a sustained period. Jamaican Yardies, and Chinese gangmasters are not a major threat to society, a determined resolve from the Police can easily identify who is involved in these cases. Terrorism is a far more serious threat, and the perpertrators are all around us, yet cannot be seen.

The Drug trade is not concentrated in one group, but the terrorist threat is.

The Chinese gangmasters do not threaten us all, in a perverse way we benefit, just as the sweat shops of china provide us with cheap goods, the gangmasters do the same here.

Threat is from the muslim community, so far it has concentrated in those of Pakistani origin. This group has arrived at the same time as the chinese, Indians, Ugandans and has failed [/B]in general[B] when you compare the groups. Yet they did not face any additional obstacles. The same could be said of the West Indians when you look at education, poverty, housing and employment, but as far as i know they have not carried out terrorist attacks on the country.

This failure was identifiied after the previous bombings and was blamed on racism and poverty,that they were disinfranchised, and my point is they suffered no more than any other immigrant community of colour.

by **kunilson** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:16 pm

LFC2007, you have a :censored:

-load of posts seeing as u only joined in April....never seen anything like it.

back to the topic i can see where redtrader is coming from, and it makes sense. Maybe the greater amount of Muslims compared to the other ethnic groups means there are gonna be more bad apples in them?....u get some muslims who will just agree with the terrorists idea's for the sake of it, because they would feel they have a right to. There's no loyalties to the country they live in(britain), but they can find it comfortable supporting ideals of madmen thousands of miles away....im not saying that everyone of them wants attacks to take place, in fact its the opposite, very few of them want that but its kind of like all of us fans of LFC got tarred with the same brush after Athens etc.

the integration of the seperate communities is one of the main problems but its a problem that aint goin to go away until something really bad happens i reckon. immigrants aren't wanted anymore. whether its the real cause of terrorism or not, there are many reasons they are not liked right now anyway..
and the more a topic is thrown in you face like this(terrorism,immigration), the more annoyed people will get, and the sh1t will hit the fan. again, and again..

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:19 pm

redtrader74 wrote:I wish you would read my post in its context, the comparison was between people who arrived at the same time to this country, over a sustained period. Jamaican Yardies, and Chinese gangmasters are not a major threat to society, a determined resolve from the Police can easily identify who is involved in these cases. Terrorism is a far more serious threat, and the perpertrators are all around us, yet cannot be seen.

The Drug trade is not concentrated in one group, but the terrorist threat is.

The Chinese gangmasters do not threaten us all, in a perverse way we benefit, just as the sweat shops of china provide us with cheap goods, the gangmasters do the same here.

Threat is from the muslim community, so far it has concentrated in those of Pakistani origin. This group has arrived at the same time as the chinese, Indians, Ugandans and has failed [/B]in general[B] when you compare the groups. Yet they did not face any additional obstacles. The same could be said of the West Indians when you look at education, poverty, housing and employment, but as far as i know they have not carried out terrorist attacks on the country.

"These people have endured the same level of racism, the same poverty, the same cultural differences, (not so much the West Indians culturally), so why the hell are the major problems only stemming from one of these sections?"

In this post you clearly infer that major problems are confined to one specific group, you didn't refer to terrorism you referred to the cultural development of each group over the past 50 years hence why I responded to just that - the point being that MAJOR PROBLEMS are not confined to one racial group. Muslim extremism was not something that developed in Britain during the 50's, 60's, 70's or 80's. It is a relatively new phenomenon. You compared the develpment of this group with others who migrated here. Well, those of West Indian descent are one of the major groups who enable the drugs trade to flourish in Britain today and 30 years ago. If you don't consider the fact that Britain harbours the largest quantity of Heroin in Western Europe a major problem then that's your prerogative - I disagree. Ethnic groups from Eastern Europe, from the Carribean, from a number of regions all contribute significantly to the drug trade - as well as White British people who distribute it. The Caribbean is a massive illegal drugs exporter to the U.K., West Indian immigrants facilitate this and distribute these drugs throughout the U.K. It was only last week that the Royal Navy intercepted a drugs shipment from the Carribean worth £29m in UK street value. The rise in illegal exports of drugs has co-incided with the rise of Carribean immigration over the past 50 years. If you're telling me that is not a MAJOR PROBLEM then I question your definition of that phrase. If you know anything about gangs in London and organised crime then you'd know that there are serious problems, not just the odd yardie, serous organised crime that is committed by a number of ethnic gangs. In parts of East London there are Somalian gangs, Turkish gangs - not necessarily muslims and not extremists just criminals ..... It's a serious problem and has been for a longer time than Islamist extremism. So to single out one specific group as a whole is unfair, there are many groups who contribute to MAJOR PROBLEMS in the U.K. The threat of terrorism from certain elements of the Muslim community usurps these problems in terms of individual threat, but that doesn't render them not to be MAJOR PROBLEMS because they clearly are and have been over a longer time period than just the past 6 or 7 years.

The terrorist threat is not entirely concentrated in those of Pakistani origin, there have been Somalians, people of mixed race, and even white British males who have converted to extremism.

Terrorism is not solely limited to those of Muslim denomination either, there are plenty of forms of terrorism, the London nailbomber for example - a right wing extremist who hated homosexuals and was a racist. A white British male from a commuter town outside of London.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:47 pm

The drug crime is not confined to one community.

I also said that using the same criteria, the West Indian community had failed.

Eastern European, Somali criminals, are just that, i was not talking about them, why? because they are generally first generation immigrants, so i don't expect any loyalty to the UK from them.

I identified the Pakistani community, because if you look at the numbers of those who have been arrested for terror related crimes, the majority have been from that group, and i single them out, because in forty years they have not integrated aswell as other groups who arrived facing the same issues, and in forty years do not consider this their home, this is anecdotal, i know, but the vast majority do not have loyalty to this country. You just need to speak to them, to know this.

One nutter nailbomber is hardly comparable, there are 100's involved in this country, and thousands of sypathisers, the Terrorist threat to this country is far more serious than you consider, if you are willing to pigeon hole it with gang crime, and the drug trade.

This has huge consequences, if they continue then the BNP will flourish, revenge attack will take place sooner or later, then more muslims will be radicalised, and this will be easy, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT AS A COMMUNITY, INTEGRATED, not all, but a majority. The rise in security will change our way of life, and so far has done, the cost to the nation will run into Billions, policing etc. which we will have to pay. This is why i believe this to be the major issue facing us, far more than drug crime, which is found in all parts of society.

by **LFC2007** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:09 pm

redtrader74 wrote:The drug crime is not confined to one community.

I also said that using the same criteria, the West Indian community had failed.

Eastern European, Somali criminals, are just that, i was not talking about them, why? because they are generally first generation immigrants, so i don't expect any loyalty to the UK from them.

I identified the Pakistani community, because if you look at the numbers of those who have been arrested for terror related crimes, the majority have been from that group, and i single them out, because in forty years they have not integrated aswell as other groups who arrived facing the same issues, and in forty years do not consider this their home, this is anecdotal, i know, but the vast majority do not have loyalty to this country. You just need to speak to them, to know this.

One nutter nailbomber is hardly comparable, there are 100's involved in this country, and thousands of sypathisers, the Terrorist threat to this country is far more serious than you consider, if you are willing to pigeon hole it with gang crime, and the drug trade.

This has huge consequences, if they continue then the BNP will flourish, revenge attack will take place sooner or later, then more muslims will be radicalised, and this will be easy, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT AS A COMMUNITY, INTEGRATED, not all, but a majority. The rise in security will change our way of life, and so far has done, the cost to the nation will run into Billions, policing etc. which we will have to pay. This is why i believe this to be the major issue facing us, far more than drug crime, which is found in all parts of society.

I completely disagree, gang crime from ethnic groups is not just a small problem it is a MASSIVE PROBLEM.

It's not just first generation immigrants, the highest number of gangs in London are African-Carribean gangs and have developed over the past 50 years. The second biggest group of gangs are from South Asia. It is not a petty little problem, people are being killed regularly and they have a massive impact on our society. It's not first generation immigrants it's the impact of immigrants from a wide range of places who have caused these problems, problems that stem much further back than Islamist extremism in this country.

I never said drug crime was confined to one community, but terrorism is not confined to one community either. What about Lockerbie? What about the IRA, the prov, INLA, Real Ira....., the London nailbomber, Israeli embassy bomb, Iranian embassy siege, all different communities who have used terrorism as methods of influence.

It's also not true that it is confined to the Pakistani community, there may be a degree of predominance but if you focus on one group you will neglect another. Germaine Lindsay, one of the 7/7 bombers from Jamaica, Mohamed Sidique Khan from Somalia, Abu qatada from Jordan, Dhiren Barot from Kenya, Richard Reid (shoebomber) of Jamaican descent, Osman Larussi - Algerian, Osman Hussain - Ethiopia, Muktar Said Ibrahim - Eritrea, Manfo asiedu - Ghana, the Ricin plot men - all from North Africa, Red mercury dirty bomb plot - Saudi sympathisers. There are a wide range of nationalities but focussing on people of Pakistani origin is far from reality and frankly revisionist history. I don't blame them to a degree for not integrating through fear, but it is NOT just people in the Pakistani community, people in the Afro-Carribean community and North African community also haven't integrated. It is not as confined as you think it is.

I am well aware of the terrorist threat we face, I consider it a threat just as much as you do, but to subjugate the other issues as not major problems is fallacious and ignorant.

by **redtrader74** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:16 pm

Unfortunatly sooner or later you will realise the scale of the current terrorism, it will esclate and propel all the gang related issues you mention into insignificance. That is crime, it is not specific to one group, the threat we are under is specific to the Muslim community. Lockerbie, israeli embassy, Iranian embassy all Muslim related.

Again, you ignore my point on the pakistani community, they make up the majority of muslims in the UK, they have been here the longest, and without googling, they so far have made up the largest number of terror arrests. I am not concentrating on one group, the original post was in relation to integration, and that similar immigration has proved far more sucessful and integrated, and the question was why? and i alluded to it being because their faith/culture prohibits it.

When i spoke of first generation, i specifically said eastern european, and somalian, in reply to you,you took this out of context again. In my post i have already stated that the WI community can be seen as failing when comparing with groups who arrived at the same time, so i don't see the point of telling me about their gang crime. It is off topic, it was about integration, loyalty to the country as a group, and i have seen, heard and read where large parts of the Pakistani community and muslims as a whole sympathise with AQ, and a huge number believe the twin towers, london bombings to be conspiracy theories, is that integrated?

by **EddieC** » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:33 pm

I think the major difference is that drug dealers, people traffickers etc, are going about their business on a regular basis, and sooner or later will get caught.

Terrorists however, spend ages planning, often showing no signs of what's to come, then suddenly cause devastation & carnage. In time criminals could potentially do as much damage to society as any terrorist, but the likelihood is that they will be caught before they do, due to the repetitive nature of their business.

A terrorist only has to strike once.

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