Liverpool FC Forum

kazza wrote:

LFC2007 wrote::laugh:  = Stu

and LFC2007 = ab

same arrogant attitude and who else would think Biscan is better than Momo.

You must be happy Real Madrid won La Liga

That's it play the ab,rv,dt,lar,fg,hy...... card

And when did I say Biscan was better than Momo,



What's Real Madrid got to do with it?

You seriously are on a road to nowhere with this "ex-member" charge.

Stu.Murph wrote:

redtrader74 wrote:Every player is not the same, class is one thing, but some players are more confident, some introverted, some have the correct mentality, others develop it later, some are mature early on, some never do or very late on, imo Bellamy, therefore you cannot judge every player the same way. Henrys first season at Arsenal, or even his time at Juve, Drogbas first season, and compare to last season.

Fowler and Owen had, by the time they broke through, been at the club for 6-8 years or so, their first season may have been the first in the senior sqaud, but not first in Liverpool.

Henry scored 23 goals in his first season in English football.

End of.

Bad Bob wrote:

s@int wrote:

Wilhelmsson wrote:

Bad Bob wrote:Fair points, mate, fair points. 

One thing that may be getting lost sight of in this discussion of transfer fees is who Rafa actually rates and is wanting to sign.  Take Klose for example.  He may have been affordable last season if your 13 million figure is accurate but I think Rafa rated Kuyt higher and was not looking to have them both (he wanted to replace Cisse with another striker with pace, hence the interest in Bellamy rather than Klose).  Undoubtedly there will be many players--including many affordable players--that look like they would be good signings for us that Rafa won't go for.  Does that mean he has a poor eye for talent?  Maybe, and that, after all, is what we are debating in this thread.

I think, however, that we need to have more patience with a few of these players before we lob them into the "bad signing" bin.  Kuyt may yet find the form that allowed him to score 71 goals in 101 games in Holland.  Aurelio may recover from injury to become our starting LB (remember how rubbish Evra looked when he first signed for the Mancs?).  Pennant may kick on from his strong finish and become a good player for us.  Just as having patience with Crouch and Agger has paid of, we should give some of the new lads a little bit more time before we completely consider them fringe players and stop-gaps.

Yes, that’s true we are losing sight of who Rafa rates and who Rafa wants, but as fans we are entitled to our opinions on who should come into the team and seeing as Rafa doesn’t reveal much about who he is interested in, its hard for anyone to discuss his interests and whether or not we agree or disagree with his confirmed interests.

Not many clubs looked at Klose last season which is why he has joined Bayern Munich this season for a miserly £10m. There was an Interview with Klose a few years ago and he said he would jump at the chance to ply his trade on foreign soil if the chance arose.

The Kuyt signing was one I supported and I have been happy with Kuyt, though I am of the opinion that Kuyt should be played further up field, because he’s got a good eye for goal and he plays too deep for my liking, it restricts his game somewhat.

As for Bellamy, he was an adequate signing, not a signing I wanted to see, he’s a decent player, then again so is Cisse. IMO Rafa didn’t replace Cisse with a better player, he replaced Cisse with a player of the same calibre and this was a poor decision. I’m wondering whether or not it was a panic purchase to appease the fans and offer more, possibilities either way that’s £20m flushed down the toilet on two decent players. (I know Houllier signed Cisse, I am adding a collective scope on things).

Rafa has his own opinions, which at times will come into conflict with other people’s opinions, that’s natural, it doesn’t equate to Rafa having a poor eye for talent. After all he has signed Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Carson and Kuyt and then he has made some poor signings and again that depends on personal opinion doesn’t it?

You raise a valid point, I am prepared to give the likes of Pennant more time, even if my own person belief of Pennant leads me to come to the conclusion that Pennant is simply not good enough to command a regular first team place in the starting eleven.

There is no doubt in my mind that Kuyt will become a success; Gonzales could have made the transition if he was given more time and Rafa had more patience and confidence in him.

This is in contrast to my belief that Bellamy and Pennant weren’t good enough to be signed in the first place, even if I can accept the signing of Pennant (as it made sense). Aurelio is someone who I rate; he was unfortunate to be kept out of the team by at Los Che by Moretti and Carboni. He was coming into form and looked settled around the time he was injured, with him and Riise, there is no need to sign a new left back at this present time.

You again raise a valid point about giving time to the relatively new players at the club. I support this idea as it’s both sensible and pragmatic and as the saying good things come to those who wait. I’d love to share such optimism with regards to Pennant and Bellamy, but I cannot share such a view.

If Bellamy was good enough then Arsenal, United and Chelsea would have been interested. Pennant was at Arsenal and was deemed by Wenger as a problem player, but a problem player that simply didn’t have the ability to command a regular first team role in his starting eleven.

If Rafa had been more shrewd and patient in the transfer window and if Parry was such an incompetence fool, Rafa could have maximised his miserly budget and he could in effect have the likes of Simao in his team.

    Good post, more or less what I was trying to say, but not as eloquently as you.

I agree that it is a good post.  I might quibble with the idea that Gonzales would eventually make the grade while Pennant won't but no matter.

Out of curiosity, did either of you advocate holding onto Cisse last summer or did you support selling him and bringing in someone else?  I ask because, as I recall, there wasn't a lot of protest about selling Cisse on this or other Liverpool boards (besides the lonely few Cisse backers).  I do remember there was a lot of debate about bringing in Bellamy but not much about shipping out Cisse.  I just wonder if this is a case of 20/20 hindsight (which there's nothing wrong with, as it's a big part of evaluating how the club has faired in the past few seasons) or whether you thought it was a bad move at the time as well?

I posted this back in may last year:-

I think all the critisism Cisse is receiving is a little unfair. Anyone who has seen Cisse play for Auxuere or France will know that he has always played the same way. He walks about the pitch looking like hes the main man just waiting for his chance and then when it comes he usually doesnt take it(offside,bad touch,straight at keeper etc.).But Cisse didnt say he was worth £14million he said he would score 20 goals a season for liverpool. I believe he would have 20+ goals if played more often this season. The problem is at what cost to the team are those 20+ goals. He seems to score his goals against the poorer sides and has shown no willingness to change his style and try to work hard for the team. He is fast but stands about flatfooted rather than on his toes ready to react. His ratio of chances to goals is poor and his failure to chase "lost causes" and passes that are slightly awry is very frustrating. Yet he had all these faults when Liverpool bought him. Surely the blame is with the people who paid £14million for him "sold as seen". Houllier had a proven record of buying "lemons" why should we be surprised at one more.
       Rafa will know by now if Cisse is able to improve both attitude and ability and will either sell him or persevere dependant on this decision and on the true value of the player imho £6-£8million and the offers he receives.

I agree if the right offer comes along (anything above £7million imho) but if not, we have to accept hes a Liverpool player and stop expecting him to play like hes worth £14million and just to play like hes worth a Liverpool shirt.

So I suppose I was in the "hes not as bad as some think, but hes still pretty cr@p" camp. My view hasnt changed much really.

Bellamy I didn't want us to sign him because I didn't think he would score enough goals and because he never scored against top sides (Apart from Barca I was pretty much spot on) I went stats mad to prove he would struggle if you remember 

Gonzo I would be happy to see leave, either on loan or transfer, I dont see him being a part of our future.

Stu.Murph wrote:

More laughable .

Players take time to settle? True...
Players take time to understand their team mates? True
Players change and forget how to do basics in another country?  Love it.

Mark Gonzalez failed over here because the grass is different and the ball's a different shape then yeah? Or maybe its because he's simply not good enough. The lad couldn't trap a bag of cement. He was useless. End of story. You don't forget how to do something or develop something you never had or lose attributes when you move countries. Its absoloute madness to suggest that. Think about yourself for sake, if you go an play with a bunch of spanish lads in spain do you think that will make you a different player and you'll have different strengths an weaknesses than what you do over here?

Robert Pires played in an Arsenal team that finished second in his first season. He also scored about 5 goals and racked up 11 assists. He also had a world cup to his name. He was never a "nothing player" at all and if you actually had the decency and intelect to actually speak to me instead of taking bits of my comments out of replies to other moron's you'd know that from day one, I rated Pires. In his first season he was highly inconsistent and looked unsettled, but at no time did he show a lack of ability. He always shown flashes in matches, certain runs, passes, movements etc. Much the way Henry did. Class players show a glimpse of what they have, a finish, a tackle, a pass, a turn into space, a touch. Class is permanent, its as simple as that.

To also compare Sissy to Bellamy is a complete joke.

And Marislav Klose is not the sort of player we need what so ever. He offers very little in terms of intelligence, technique and alround play, in England he would cause alot of moves to break down due to a lack of these attributes.

s@int wrote:I posted this back in may last year:-

I think all the critisism Cisse is receiving is a little unfair. Anyone who has seen Cisse play for Auxuere or France will know that he has always played the same way. He walks about the pitch looking like hes the main man just waiting for his chance and then when it comes he usually doesnt take it(offside,bad touch,straight at keeper etc.).But Cisse didnt say he was worth £14million he said he would score 20 goals a season for liverpool. I believe he would have 20+ goals if played more often this season. The problem is at what cost to the team are those 20+ goals. He seems to score his goals against the poorer sides and has shown no willingness to change his style and try to work hard for the team. He is fast but stands about flatfooted rather than on his toes ready to react. His ratio of chances to goals is poor and his failure to chase "lost causes" and passes that are slightly awry is very frustrating. Yet he had all these faults when Liverpool bought him. Surely the blame is with the people who paid £14million for him "sold as seen". Houllier had a proven record of buying "lemons" why should we be surprised at one more.
       Rafa will know by now if Cisse is able to improve both attitude and ability and will either sell him or persevere dependant on this decision and on the true value of the player imho £6-£8million and the offers he receives.

I agree if the right offer comes along (anything above £7million imho) but if not, we have to accept hes a Liverpool player and stop expecting him to play like hes worth £14million and just to play like hes worth a Liverpool shirt.

So I suppose I was in the "hes not as bad as some think, but hes still pretty cr@p" camp. My view hasnt changed much really.

Bellamy I didn't want us to sign him because I didn't think he would score enough goals and because he never scored against top sides (Apart from Barca I was pretty much spot on) I went stats mad to prove he would struggle if you remember 

Gonzo I would be happy to see leave, either on loan or transfer, I dont see him being a part of our future.

Fair enough, mate.  A very reasonable assessment on both Cisse and Bellamy.  Nice one. 

Wilhelmsson wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote::laugh:

More laughable .

Players take time to settle? True...
Players take time to understand their team mates? True
Players change and forget how to do basics in another country?  Love it.

Mark Gonzalez failed over here because the grass is different and the ball's a different shape then yeah? Or maybe its because he's simply not good enough. The lad couldn't trap a bag of cement. He was useless. End of story. You don't forget how to do something or develop something you never had or lose attributes when you move countries. Its absoloute madness to suggest that. Think about yourself for sake, if you go an play with a bunch of spanish lads in spain do you think that will make you a different player and you'll have different strengths an weaknesses than what you do over here?

Robert Pires played in an Arsenal team that finished second in his first season. He also scored about 5 goals and racked up 11 assists. He also had a world cup to his name. He was never a "nothing player" at all and if you actually had the decency and intelect to actually speak to me instead of taking bits of my comments out of replies to other moron's you'd know that from day one, I rated Pires. In his first season he was highly inconsistent and looked unsettled, but at no time did he show a lack of ability. He always shown flashes in matches, certain runs, passes, movements etc. Much the way Henry did. Class players show a glimpse of what they have, a finish, a tackle, a pass, a turn into space, a touch. Class is permanent, its as simple as that.

To also compare Sissy to Bellamy is a complete joke.

And Marislav Klose is not the sort of player we need what so ever. He offers very little in terms of intelligence, technique and alround play, in England he would cause alot of moves to break down due to a lack of these attributes.

Players who play a continental style of football might find it difficult at first to adjust themselves to a completely contrasting style of football that is played in England. As for Gonzales not being able to complete the basics, I don’t know what matches you were watching but he showed he can do the basics, now if you were going to make a point you never saw any flashes of brilliance or promise from Mark Gonzales then I’d accept this point, because I didn’t either, however that’s not to say it’s not there.

Saying Mark failed here is a bit harsh IMO, I felt he was disappointing, but he wasn’t given fifty games like Jermaine Pennant, so calling him a failure is inaccurate and very harsh. He wasn’t impressive in the matches he played in, but in his defence he didn’t get a fair break in the first team and Rafa didn’t show enough faith in him.

Now whether or not he is or was good enough to make a name for himself in the first team at Liverpool is anybody’s guess, I think he was more than capable of adapting to life at Liverpool and I felt he could have given Benitez more options on the left hand side. You seem ignorant to the fact that whilst the principles of football are always the same in all four corners of the globe, the styles of football in such places will contrast one another in certain areas.

As for him not being good enough, that’s your opinion; it doesn’t make it a fact does it? No one can forge a cast iron opinion about how Mark Gonzales would have faired here if he had been given more time. I haven’t forged an opinion that is set in stone on Mark, all I have said is he could have (with time) become an important player in the team. Mark was one of the better players in La Liga during the loan spell at Sociedad, averaged a goal in every two games. You have stated a player doesn’t lose such attributes; therefore Mark hasn’t lost his attributes.

By your analogy Morientes and Veron were terrible players, Veron was one of Parma’s and Inter’s most influential midfielders when he played for them. He left Italy for Man Utd and failed to impress on the domestic stage. Morientes was one of Real Madrid’s talisman during their recent Galatico era, left Real Madrid and came to Liverpool on the back of having played in Four European Cup Finals, he failed to impress on all front’s, what are your opinions on these players who failed to show their ability and attributes on the English stage?

Robert Pires was a great player on his day, there’s no need to state the obvious and I won’t and don’t want to get into a slanging match here, but you should practise what you preach and show decency to the people on this board. Gonzales showed some touches of someone who has good ability whilst he was here, he didn’t show any brilliance, because he is not a top class player, that however doesn’t equate to him not being good enough to have played a part in the Liverpool squad. Gonzales might not become a top class player, but he certainly isn’t a terrible player. Class is permanent, when I have stated otherwise, in fact when have I mentioned class in the context you are proclaiming? All I have said is, if Gonzales was given enough time to adapt he could have been a good asset to have at the club.

Stu, why don’t you expand on why comparing two players who play in a similar way is a joke? To me they are very similar players, both work the channels, both run in and behind defenders, both have disappointed whilst being here, both cannot hit a cows backside with a machine gun, both are oblivious to the offside rule.

That’s your opinion of Miroslav, I think it’s an inaccurate judgement to make, (like your spelling of his forename), his technique is second to none, he displays a lot of intelligence, and sure he has his moments, then again what player doesn’t?  His all-round play is what you want of a striker, he is competent using both feet and he has a good aerial attributes. I’m not saying he is the best striker we can buy, there are much better, but he is miles better than Torres, he is miles better than Bellamy.

Absoloutely 100% clueless.

josip84 wrote:Hello lads,
Rafa's buying talent ability? Let's talk about his selling talent ability instead.
As a fan of Olympique de Marseille, I can tell you that almost everybody here in Marseilles would be delighted to see Djibril Cissé stay with us for good. You guys in Liverpool have been unable to acknowledge Djib's raw talent. You failed to make the most of Cissé's pace and power. After he broke his leg last summer, Marseille gave him a chance, which he seized undoubtedly, while your only aim was to get rid of him.
So let him go now! You don't want him, we do.
And let's all hope we can have the opportunity to sort this all out in the coming Champions League. Remember our last encounter in 2004? Remember how Drogba, yet unknown at that time, crucified you at Anfield and later in Marseilles? Well, if Cissé stays with us,  you will probably end up with the same kind of fate, with all due respect to the greatest Bristish club of all times........

Hey, mate, you can have him.  You'll just have to buy him outright because another loan deal does us no favours.  And, I don't doubt he'll prove a good buy for you. 

As for meeting us in the CL, you may have noticed that we've improved slightly as a club since our last encounter.   I wouldn't lose any sleep if we drew you...even with Djibs in your side!