Liverpool FC Forum

[Ian Rush's Right foot]

yes, but at the same time it would be nice to see the youngsters given more of a chance left mid is probably a bad example though - we don't have any real prospects for that position to be given their chance.

err, what about Adam Hamill, He can play on either wing.

This kid is going to be amazing.

Hopefully Rafa will include him in his plans for next year.

[kazza]

:laugh:  = Stu

and LFC2007 = ab

same arrogant attitude and who else would think Biscan is better than Momo.

You must be happy Real Madrid won La Liga

[Wilhelmsson]

Fair points, mate, fair points. 

One thing that may be getting lost sight of in this discussion of transfer fees is who Rafa actually rates and is wanting to sign.  Take Klose for example.  He may have been affordable last season if your 13 million figure is accurate but I think Rafa rated Kuyt higher and was not looking to have them both (he wanted to replace Cisse with another striker with pace, hence the interest in Bellamy rather than Klose).  Undoubtedly there will be many players--including many affordable players--that look like they would be good signings for us that Rafa won't go for.  Does that mean he has a poor eye for talent?  Maybe, and that, after all, is what we are debating in this thread.

I think, however, that we need to have more patience with a few of these players before we lob them into the "bad signing" bin.  Kuyt may yet find the form that allowed him to score 71 goals in 101 games in Holland.  Aurelio may recover from injury to become our starting LB (remember how rubbish Evra looked when he first signed for the Mancs?).  Pennant may kick on from his strong finish and become a good player for us.  Just as having patience with Crouch and Agger has paid of, we should give some of the new lads a little bit more time before we completely consider them fringe players and stop-gaps.

Yes, that’s true we are losing sight of who Rafa rates and who Rafa wants, but as fans we are entitled to our opinions on who should come into the team and seeing as Rafa doesn’t reveal much about who he is interested in, its hard for anyone to discuss his interests and whether or not we agree or disagree with his confirmed interests.

Not many clubs looked at Klose last season which is why he has joined Bayern Munich this season for a miserly £10m. There was an Interview with Klose a few years ago and he said he would jump at the chance to ply his trade on foreign soil if the chance arose.

The Kuyt signing was one I supported and I have been happy with Kuyt, though I am of the opinion that Kuyt should be played further up field, because he’s got a good eye for goal and he plays too deep for my liking, it restricts his game somewhat.

As for Bellamy, he was an adequate signing, not a signing I wanted to see, he’s a decent player, then again so is Cisse. IMO Rafa didn’t replace Cisse with a better player, he replaced Cisse with a player of the same calibre and this was a poor decision. I’m wondering whether or not it was a panic purchase to appease the fans and offer more, possibilities either way that’s £20m flushed down the toilet on two decent players. (I know Houllier signed Cisse, I am adding a collective scope on things).

Rafa has his own opinions, which at times will come into conflict with other people’s opinions, that’s natural, it doesn’t equate to Rafa having a poor eye for talent. After all he has signed Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Carson and Kuyt and then he has made some poor signings and again that depends on personal opinion doesn’t it?

You raise a valid point, I am prepared to give the likes of Pennant more time, even if my own person belief of Pennant leads me to come to the conclusion that Pennant is simply not good enough to command a regular first team place in the starting eleven.

There is no doubt in my mind that Kuyt will become a success; Gonzales could have made the transition if he was given more time and Rafa had more patience and confidence in him.

This is in contrast to my belief that Bellamy and Pennant weren’t good enough to be signed in the first place, even if I can accept the signing of Pennant (as it made sense). Aurelio is someone who I rate; he was unfortunate to be kept out of the team by at Los Che by Moretti and Carboni. He was coming into form and looked settled around the time he was injured, with him and Riise, there is no need to sign a new left back at this present time.

You again raise a valid point about giving time to the relatively new players at the club. I support this idea as it’s both sensible and pragmatic and as the saying good things come to those who wait. I’d love to share such optimism with regards to Pennant and Bellamy, but I cannot share such a view.

If Bellamy was good enough then Arsenal, United and Chelsea would have been interested. Pennant was at Arsenal and was deemed by Wenger as a problem player, but a problem player that simply didn’t have the ability to command a regular first team role in his starting eleven.

If Rafa had been more shrewd and patient in the transfer window and if Parry was such an incompetence fool, Rafa could have maximised his miserly budget and he could in effect have the likes of Simao in his team.

[account deleted by request]

Fair points, mate, fair points. 

One thing that may be getting lost sight of in this discussion of transfer fees is who Rafa actually rates and is wanting to sign.  Take Klose for example.  He may have been affordable last season if your 13 million figure is accurate but I think Rafa rated Kuyt higher and was not looking to have them both (he wanted to replace Cisse with another striker with pace, hence the interest in Bellamy rather than Klose).  Undoubtedly there will be many players--including many affordable players--that look like they would be good signings for us that Rafa won't go for.  Does that mean he has a poor eye for talent?  Maybe, and that, after all, is what we are debating in this thread.

I think, however, that we need to have more patience with a few of these players before we lob them into the "bad signing" bin.  Kuyt may yet find the form that allowed him to score 71 goals in 101 games in Holland.  Aurelio may recover from injury to become our starting LB (remember how rubbish Evra looked when he first signed for the Mancs?).  Pennant may kick on from his strong finish and become a good player for us.  Just as having patience with Crouch and Agger has paid of, we should give some of the new lads a little bit more time before we completely consider them fringe players and stop-gaps.

Yes, that’s true we are losing sight of who Rafa rates and who Rafa wants, but as fans we are entitled to our opinions on who should come into the team and seeing as Rafa doesn’t reveal much about who he is interested in, its hard for anyone to discuss his interests and whether or not we agree or disagree with his confirmed interests.

Not many clubs looked at Klose last season which is why he has joined Bayern Munich this season for a miserly £10m. There was an Interview with Klose a few years ago and he said he would jump at the chance to ply his trade on foreign soil if the chance arose.

The Kuyt signing was one I supported and I have been happy with Kuyt, though I am of the opinion that Kuyt should be played further up field, because he’s got a good eye for goal and he plays too deep for my liking, it restricts his game somewhat.

As for Bellamy, he was an adequate signing, not a signing I wanted to see, he’s a decent player, then again so is Cisse. IMO Rafa didn’t replace Cisse with a better player, he replaced Cisse with a player of the same calibre and this was a poor decision. I’m wondering whether or not it was a panic purchase to appease the fans and offer more, possibilities either way that’s £20m flushed down the toilet on two decent players. (I know Houllier signed Cisse, I am adding a collective scope on things).

Rafa has his own opinions, which at times will come into conflict with other people’s opinions, that’s natural, it doesn’t equate to Rafa having a poor eye for talent. After all he has signed Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Carson and Kuyt and then he has made some poor signings and again that depends on personal opinion doesn’t it?

You raise a valid point, I am prepared to give the likes of Pennant more time, even if my own person belief of Pennant leads me to come to the conclusion that Pennant is simply not good enough to command a regular first team place in the starting eleven.

There is no doubt in my mind that Kuyt will become a success; Gonzales could have made the transition if he was given more time and Rafa had more patience and confidence in him.

This is in contrast to my belief that Bellamy and Pennant weren’t good enough to be signed in the first place, even if I can accept the signing of Pennant (as it made sense). Aurelio is someone who I rate; he was unfortunate to be kept out of the team by at Los Che by Moretti and Carboni. He was coming into form and looked settled around the time he was injured, with him and Riise, there is no need to sign a new left back at this present time.

You again raise a valid point about giving time to the relatively new players at the club. I support this idea as it’s both sensible and pragmatic and as the saying good things come to those who wait. I’d love to share such optimism with regards to Pennant and Bellamy, but I cannot share such a view.

If Bellamy was good enough then Arsenal, United and Chelsea would have been interested. Pennant was at Arsenal and was deemed by Wenger as a problem player, but a problem player that simply didn’t have the ability to command a regular first team role in his starting eleven.

If Rafa had been more shrewd and patient in the transfer window and if Parry was such an incompetence fool, Rafa could have maximised his miserly budget and he could in effect have the likes of Simao in his team.

    Good post, more or less what I was trying to say, but not as eloquently as you.

[Bad Bob]

Fair points, mate, fair points. 

One thing that may be getting lost sight of in this discussion of transfer fees is who Rafa actually rates and is wanting to sign.  Take Klose for example.  He may have been affordable last season if your 13 million figure is accurate but I think Rafa rated Kuyt higher and was not looking to have them both (he wanted to replace Cisse with another striker with pace, hence the interest in Bellamy rather than Klose).  Undoubtedly there will be many players--including many affordable players--that look like they would be good signings for us that Rafa won't go for.  Does that mean he has a poor eye for talent?  Maybe, and that, after all, is what we are debating in this thread.

I think, however, that we need to have more patience with a few of these players before we lob them into the "bad signing" bin.  Kuyt may yet find the form that allowed him to score 71 goals in 101 games in Holland.  Aurelio may recover from injury to become our starting LB (remember how rubbish Evra looked when he first signed for the Mancs?).  Pennant may kick on from his strong finish and become a good player for us.  Just as having patience with Crouch and Agger has paid of, we should give some of the new lads a little bit more time before we completely consider them fringe players and stop-gaps.

Yes, that’s true we are losing sight of who Rafa rates and who Rafa wants, but as fans we are entitled to our opinions on who should come into the team and seeing as Rafa doesn’t reveal much about who he is interested in, its hard for anyone to discuss his interests and whether or not we agree or disagree with his confirmed interests.

Not many clubs looked at Klose last season which is why he has joined Bayern Munich this season for a miserly £10m. There was an Interview with Klose a few years ago and he said he would jump at the chance to ply his trade on foreign soil if the chance arose.

The Kuyt signing was one I supported and I have been happy with Kuyt, though I am of the opinion that Kuyt should be played further up field, because he’s got a good eye for goal and he plays too deep for my liking, it restricts his game somewhat.

As for Bellamy, he was an adequate signing, not a signing I wanted to see, he’s a decent player, then again so is Cisse. IMO Rafa didn’t replace Cisse with a better player, he replaced Cisse with a player of the same calibre and this was a poor decision. I’m wondering whether or not it was a panic purchase to appease the fans and offer more, possibilities either way that’s £20m flushed down the toilet on two decent players. (I know Houllier signed Cisse, I am adding a collective scope on things).

Rafa has his own opinions, which at times will come into conflict with other people’s opinions, that’s natural, it doesn’t equate to Rafa having a poor eye for talent. After all he has signed Alonso, Garcia, Reina, Sissoko, Crouch, Carson and Kuyt and then he has made some poor signings and again that depends on personal opinion doesn’t it?

You raise a valid point, I am prepared to give the likes of Pennant more time, even if my own person belief of Pennant leads me to come to the conclusion that Pennant is simply not good enough to command a regular first team place in the starting eleven.

There is no doubt in my mind that Kuyt will become a success; Gonzales could have made the transition if he was given more time and Rafa had more patience and confidence in him.

This is in contrast to my belief that Bellamy and Pennant weren’t good enough to be signed in the first place, even if I can accept the signing of Pennant (as it made sense). Aurelio is someone who I rate; he was unfortunate to be kept out of the team by at Los Che by Moretti and Carboni. He was coming into form and looked settled around the time he was injured, with him and Riise, there is no need to sign a new left back at this present time.

You again raise a valid point about giving time to the relatively new players at the club. I support this idea as it’s both sensible and pragmatic and as the saying good things come to those who wait. I’d love to share such optimism with regards to Pennant and Bellamy, but I cannot share such a view.

If Bellamy was good enough then Arsenal, United and Chelsea would have been interested. Pennant was at Arsenal and was deemed by Wenger as a problem player, but a problem player that simply didn’t have the ability to command a regular first team role in his starting eleven.

If Rafa had been more shrewd and patient in the transfer window and if Parry was such an incompetence fool, Rafa could have maximised his miserly budget and he could in effect have the likes of Simao in his team.

    Good post, more or less what I was trying to say, but not as eloquently as you.

I agree that it is a good post.  I might quibble with the idea that Gonzales would eventually make the grade while Pennant won't but no matter.

Out of curiosity, did either of you advocate holding onto Cisse last summer or did you support selling him and bringing in someone else?  I ask because, as I recall, there wasn't a lot of protest about selling Cisse on this or other Liverpool boards (besides the lonely few Cisse backers).  I do remember there was a lot of debate about bringing in Bellamy but not much about shipping out Cisse.  I just wonder if this is a case of 20/20 hindsight (which there's nothing wrong with, as it's a big part of evaluating how the club has faired in the past few seasons) or whether you thought it was a bad move at the time as well?

[Stu.Murph]

Give him time, he's young, he needs a sesaon to adapt = excuses.

Fowler and Owen came through at 18 and 17 and in their first season, Robbie scored 18 in all comps and Owen scored 23 in all comps. The second season saw Robbie score 28 in all comps while Owen again netted 23.

Both as teenagers, inexperienced and both in their first season...

I supose now people are going to use the "way they are brought up to play" and the "culture" excuse?

Class is permanent.

[Wilhelmsson]

Give him time, he's young, he needs a sesaon to adapt = excuses.

Fowler and Owen came through at 18 and 17 and in their first season, Robbie scored 18 in all comps and Owen scored 23 in all comps. The second season saw Robbie score 28 in all comps while Owen again netted 23.

Both as teenagers, inexperienced and both in their first season...

I supose now people are going to use the "way they are brought up to play" and the "culture" excuse?

Class is permanent.

Will you back track on this opinion like you did with your criticisms regarding Benitez and his purchases?

[redtrader74]

Every player is not the same, class is one thing, but some players are more confident, some introverted, some have the correct mentality, others develop it later, some are mature early on, some never do or very late on, imo Bellamy, therefore you cannot judge every player the same way. Henrys first season at Arsenal, or even his time at Juve, Drogbas first season, and compare to last season.

Fowler and Owen had, by the time they broke through, been at the club for 6-8 years or so, their first season may have been the first in the senior sqaud, but not first in Liverpool.

[grayghost]

How can a player become world class as soon as he laces his boots. it takes years of development training and practice only on rare ocassions can a player come in to the team when 18 -19 and be good enough for the top level thouse kind pf players do not come aruond every day. and even when they do it will cost you 15m plus to get them here.

[Wilhelmsson]

I agree that it is a good post.  I might quibble with the idea that Gonzales would eventually make the grade while Pennant won't but no matter.

Out of curiosity, did either of you advocate holding onto Cisse last summer or did you support selling him and bringing in someone else?  I ask because, as I recall, there wasn't a lot of protest about selling Cisse on this or other Liverpool boards (besides the lonely few Cisse backers).  I do remember there was a lot of debate about bringing in Bellamy but not much about shipping out Cisse.  I just wonder if this is a case of 20/20 hindsight (which there's nothing wrong with, as it's a big part of evaluating how the club has faired in the past few seasons) or whether you thought it was a bad move at the time as well?

That’s fair point, raised; Gonzales had a fantastic half season with Real Sociedad two seasons ago and he really showed what he can do, it’s ashame he didn’t settle in quickly and effectively. He needed a longer period of time than a season to find his feet, for all of Stu’s ‘knowledge’ he fails to acknowledge, (whether it’s through lack of intelligence or ignorance) the fact that people will adapt differently and in different ways and at different times. It took around two seasons for Robert Pires to get up and running efficiently and effectively for Arsenal. However if you go by Stu’s assessment and profound analogy then Robert Pires was a ‘nothing’ player, which isn’t what Stu was saying about Pires earlier in this topic.

I advocated selling Cisse because I felt for the money Houllier has shelled out for his services, he didn’t offer nor represent good value for money and despite his injury (I was pleased with his determination) and his nineteen goals, I disliked his attitude on the pitch and his work ethic was minimal which I would have excused if he could hit a cows backside with a machine gun, but he didn’t and couldn’t for the most part. He wasn’t this natural goal scorer I was led to believe by other fans perspectives and in-depth opinions. He wasn’t a direct replacement for Michael Owen that so many people harked on about.

I wanted Cisse to be sold, because I was under the impression Rafa wanted to sign someone who do the business and get the goals we needed to win more matches. When I saw our interest in Bellamy, I had second thoughts about selling a player who is just as good as his proposed replacement. The £6m spent on Bellamy could have been placed with an extra £7m from the kitty and could have bought a player like Klose into the club. IMO Klose would have been a gamble (factors such as league and age), but he would have been no more of a gamble than Bellamy. I guess you could say it is 20/20 hindsight, when we signed Bellamy, I thought he could indeed prove me wrong, I was waiting and hoping he would prove to be sublime business for £6m, but he hasn’t proved to be this, instead we have the Welsh equivalent to Djibril Cisse.

[Stu.Murph]

Give him time, he's young, he needs a sesaon to adapt = excuses.

Fowler and Owen came through at 18 and 17 and in their first season, Robbie scored 18 in all comps and Owen scored 23 in all comps. The second season saw Robbie score 28 in all comps while Owen again netted 23.

Both as teenagers, inexperienced and both in their first season...

I supose now people are going to use the "way they are brought up to play" and the "culture" excuse?

Class is permanent.

Will you back track on this opinion like you did with your criticisms regarding Benitez and his purchases?

Yet another smart . When have I ever backtracked on anything I've ever said.

Another comedian wannabe who has absoloutely no idea about anything.

Dickhead!

[Stu.Murph]

Every player is not the same, class is one thing, but some players are more confident, some introverted, some have the correct mentality, others develop it later, some are mature early on, some never do or very late on, imo Bellamy, therefore you cannot judge every player the same way. Henrys first season at Arsenal, or even his time at Juve, Drogbas first season, and compare to last season.

Fowler and Owen had, by the time they broke through, been at the club for 6-8 years or so, their first season may have been the first in the senior sqaud, but not first in Liverpool.

Henry scored 23 goals in his first season in English football.

End of.

[Stu.Murph]

I agree that it is a good post.  I might quibble with the idea that Gonzales would eventually make the grade while Pennant won't but no matter.

Out of curiosity, did either of you advocate holding onto Cisse last summer or did you support selling him and bringing in someone else?  I ask because, as I recall, there wasn't a lot of protest about selling Cisse on this or other Liverpool boards (besides the lonely few Cisse backers).  I do remember there was a lot of debate about bringing in Bellamy but not much about shipping out Cisse.  I just wonder if this is a case of 20/20 hindsight (which there's nothing wrong with, as it's a big part of evaluating how the club has faired in the past few seasons) or whether you thought it was a bad move at the time as well?

That’s fair point, raised; Gonzales had a fantastic half season with Real Sociedad two seasons ago and he really showed what he can do, it’s ashame he didn’t settle in quickly and effectively. He needed a longer period of time than a season to find his feet, for all of Stu’s ‘knowledge’ he fails to acknowledge, (whether it’s through lack of intelligence or ignorance) the fact that people will adapt differently and in different ways and at different times. It took around two seasons for Robert Pires to get up and running efficiently and effectively for Arsenal. However if you go by Stu’s assessment and profound analogy then Robert Pires was a ‘nothing’ player, which isn’t what Stu was saying about Pires earlier in this topic.

I advocated selling Cisse because I felt for the money Houllier has shelled out for his services, he didn’t offer nor represent good value for money and despite his injury (I was pleased with his determination) and his nineteen goals, I disliked his attitude on the pitch and his work ethic was minimal which I would have excused if he could hit a cows backside with a machine gun, but he didn’t and couldn’t for the most part. He wasn’t this natural goal scorer I was led to believe by other fans perspectives and in-depth opinions. He wasn’t a direct replacement for Michael Owen that so many people harked on about.

I wanted Cisse to be sold, because I was under the impression Rafa wanted to sign someone who do the business and get the goals we needed to win more matches. When I saw our interest in Bellamy, I had second thoughts about selling a player who is just as good as his proposed replacement. The £6m spent on Bellamy could have been placed with an extra £7m from the kitty and could have bought a player like Klose into the club. IMO Klose would have been a gamble (factors such as league and age), but he would have been no more of a gamble than Bellamy. I guess you could say it is 20/20 hindsight, when we signed Bellamy, I thought he could indeed prove me wrong, I was waiting and hoping he would prove to be sublime business for £6m, but he hasn’t proved to be this, instead we have the Welsh equivalent to Djibril Cisse.

More laughable .

Players take time to settle? True...
Players take time to understand their team mates? True
Players change and forget how to do basics in another country?  Love it.

Mark Gonzalez failed over here because the grass is different and the ball's a different shape then yeah? Or maybe its because he's simply not good enough. The lad couldn't trap a bag of cement. He was useless. End of story. You don't forget how to do something or develop something you never had or lose attributes when you move countries. Its absoloute madness to suggest that. Think about yourself for sake, if you go an play with a bunch of spanish lads in spain do you think that will make you a different player and you'll have different strengths an weaknesses than what you do over here?

Robert Pires played in an Arsenal team that finished second in his first season. He also scored about 5 goals and racked up 11 assists. He also had a world cup to his name. He was never a "nothing player" at all and if you actually had the decency and intelect to actually speak to me instead of taking bits of my comments out of replies to other moron's you'd know that from day one, I rated Pires. In his first season he was highly inconsistent and looked unsettled, but at no time did he show a lack of ability. He always shown flashes in matches, certain runs, passes, movements etc. Much the way Henry did. Class players show a glimpse of what they have, a finish, a tackle, a pass, a turn into space, a touch. Class is permanent, its as simple as that.

To also compare Sissy to Bellamy is a complete joke.

And Marislav Klose is not the sort of player we need what so ever. He offers very little in terms of intelligence, technique and alround play, in England he would cause alot of moves to break down due to a lack of these attributes.

[stmichael]

On Gonzalez, has he actually gone on loan to Betis yet?

[ICE-MAN]

No i dont think so, and i may be wrong but i think the betis manager was sacked so the deal cud be up the air, rafa definitely wants to offload him though, its a shame a lot of us had high hopes for him!