Liverpool FC Forum

[Stu.Murph]

You seem to be two stupid to understand that.

   

P!ssing myself!!!!!!!!!

Wouldn't be the first time.

You're as thick as two short planks.

Better than actually being a plank though isn't it.

[account deleted by request]

Gerrard, Alonso,Sissoko and Mascherano are all options to play CM I wouldn't class any of them as squad players.

I think thats what Stu is meaning, quality options rather than squad players.

Personally I'd count both Sissoko and Mascherano as squad players... BUT good squad players. Players who have a use and aren't so limited that when you put them in the team (ala Zenden) you're effectively playing with 10 men.

In other words thats pretty much what I meant.

I can't agree with you there mate, Mascherano is class , and I still think Sissoko is very good .( I know you dont rate him as highly)


Im still too slow    im still talking football and we have moved onto the insults 

[Wilhelmsson]

Look, mate, I hear what you're saying but I just don't think it's financially reasonable.  Take, for instance, your suggestion about signing Klose last summer instead of Bellamy to complement Crouch and Kuyt.  Well, there was no way we were going to be able to afford both Klose and Kuyt.  Just as we couldn't afford to sign both Alves and Kuyt.  Until the new owners came in--and even then there's debate--Rafa has simply not had the cash to follow your strategy of "signing one top class player and two very good players" in a single transfer window. 

Look at the numbers this summer if you don't believe me.  Say we wanted to sign a top class striker and two good wingers.  Well, Eto'o is rumoured to cost around 30 million, Villa's up in that price bracket too, while Torres and Tevez may be in the neighbourhood of 25 million.  As for good wingers, we've got Malouda valued around 17 million, Mancini around the same and Simao a comparative bargain in the 12-14 million range.  So, we're looking at spending in the neighbourhood of 50-55 million to get the kind of signings your advocating.  There was no chance Rafa had that kind of cash to spend in previous years and I'd be very surprised if he has that kind of cash to spend now.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on your point about it not being financially reasonable, because signing one top class player and then weighing up the options afterwards is a more gradual and sensible option than signing three or four fringe players and then two good players, because sooner or later you have to rip that team up and make numerous changes and this will no doubt upset the balance of the team and will undo the gelling of the team. In contrast when gradual change is made the balance is slowly changing at a reasonable rate (of nauts), it’s a much more conservative approach and one that can work when shown respect and patience.

Rafa could have afforded both Klose and Kuyt if he wanted both players, Klose was rated at £13m last season by Werder Bremen, he has now been snapped up for £10m by Bayern as he was in the last season of his contract and refused to renew it. After the purchases of both players the transfer’s budget would leave Rafa with around £7m to spend (that is of course if we paid for Gonzales the season we couldn’t get a work permit for him) and Pennant could have been bought for the same price. Aurelio came on a free transfer, so Rafa would have purchased Klose, Kuyt, Aurelio, Gonzales and Pennant. The Pennant transfer is not ideal to me; he is not in the long term going to claim a regular first team starting place because he simply isn’t good enough. I can see the logic behind his signing, even if I did not and do not support his signing.

Benitez could have afforded the transfers of Alves and Kuyt; he refused to pay the price which Sevilla was asking for, which was the right thing to do after Sevilla tried to squeeze more money out of Benitez.  If I remember correctly, Sevilla wanted around £14m-£16m and Kuyt cost £10m, that’s £26m for two players who would no doubt slot into the first team. Of course if we signed Alves we couldn’t sign Klose, I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, even I know this.

I accept your point, my comment about us signing one top class player and two very good players was an inaccurate comment to make, and I didn’t explain myself well on that particular point. What I meant was, if Benitez had been more concerned with improving the first team and then signing fringe players to bolster the squad, he could have signed a top player and possibly one good player and then some players on a free transfer who wouldn’t cost much like Aurelio and Zenden Benitez hasn’t been overly shrewd in the transfer market and hasn’t maximised his outlook in the transfer market to great benefit of the club.  This has no reflection on all of his signings, the likes of Alonso, Reina, Garcia, Sissoko and Agger have been very good signings.

Oh, I do believe you, I have seen the figures being branded about, and I have also seen figures being thrown around about the size of our transfer budget. Gillett and Hicks have stated on numerous occasions that Rafa will have money to spend and if the rumours are true that Benitez is in talks with Torres and if the reported fee is correct or near the actual price then we have much more money to spend then last summer. This means Rafa should be able to spend more than £30m on players, which if spent correctly will help us progress, at the moment until a player or players are signed, us fans will just have to sit and wait.

I’m not advocating a Chelsea spending spree or a football manager styled spending spree, where you can get a player like Simao for next to nothing, I am simply stating my belief that if Benitez was a bit shrewder in the transfer window he could have maximised the miserly budget in a more successful manner. Of course if Rafa wants to buy Eto’o, he’ll have to bid more than £30m, Barcelona will want to break the all time transfer record for the sale of Eto’o, so Rafa would have to stump up the funds.

However on the flipside he doesn’t need to spend that much on a striker, that’s entirely his prerogative if he chooses to do so, someone of Klose’s ability has left Bremen for £10m, Henry has just left Arsenal for £16m, and Luca Toni left Italy for around £6m-£7m to Bayern Munich. Owen is rated at £9m and despite his injuries he is a very accomplished player with a superb goal scoring record.

As for wingers, well Malouda might cost £17m, Simao might cost £17m, and if Benitez wants to pay such a price then again that’s his prerogative. With the miserly budget of £30m, the purchase of both players wouldn’t happen at once, it would happen maybe one season after the other, which isn’t exactly a terrible thing (and I am pretty sure he could cut those prices down by a few million). Unless there are impatient fans, then for them it would painful.

Why would you be surprised if Rafa has £40m-£60m for transfers? I expect there to be more than £30m for players seeing as Moores sold the club to the duo on the basis that Rafa’s ambitions would be met and Rafa’s first choice targets would be signed? (I’m ignoring the stadium here, which as we know is another reason why Moores sold his shares), I will be angry if Rafa has to resort to signing his second or third choice targets; we won’t progress if this keeps happening every summer.

[Kukilon]

Has everyone forgotten about the Bulgarian striker we have for next season? proberly, hard to see were he's going to fit in.

Ukranian?

[LFC2007]

Its not about what he's wasted. NONE of Rafa's signings have been a disaster, none of them have been what I'd class as poor. All have served a purpose.

Again I will say it, the problem I have is, he's not signed enough quality. He's signed decent players when he could have had excellent players for the same money.

But you said he's come nowhere near Houllier in terms of signings, so I'm assuming you consider Diouf, Diao, Biscan, Heggem and co all to have served a purpose, what purpose did Diao and Diouf serve exactly?

If none of Rafa's signings have been a disaster what were Cisse, Diouf and Diao? £30m of sh!t.

Yet Rafa has yet to reach Houllier's level of ability in signing players! 

Oh right, why don't we compare Frode Kippe to Alonso aswell?

What about comparing Patrice Luzi to Reina aswell to strengthen your case even further... Infact, why don't we also just for the fun of it, compare signing Mascherano with Bruno Cheyrou...

How about we look at things in a little more perspective...

Hyypia instead of Josemi
Babbel instead of Kromkamp
Finnan instead of Arbeloa
Henchoz instead of Hobbs/Antwi/Roque/Pellegrino
Riise instead of Insua
Hamann instead of Nunez

Oh wait... they wouldn't suit ur arguement would they?

I have plenty of perspective, you've just taken it to the extreme of comparing youngsters like Insua to Riise. Henchoz to Roque and Antwi. Agger or Henchoz? Agger any day mate, Hyypia may have been more consistent in his latter years than Agger, but Agger has plenty of time to reach that level and he is not far off at this moment IMO. He's 22 FFS, how many other teams have a player of his defensive ability at his age?

You say Rafa is nowhere near reaching Houllier's level of ability to spot talent, yet you say he p!ssed nigh on £30m last year? Well I consider the £30m Houllier p!ssed on Diouf, Cisse and Diao significantly worse than that of Kuyt, Bellamy and Pennant. And that was at the end of Houllier's reign - shows what he learnt about bringing in top talent.

Players like Carragher, Finnan and Riise may have been spotted by Houllier but they never performed great under him, Carra wasn't the defender he is today under Houllier, it's only under Benitez that he's come on - the same applies to a lesser extent with Finnan and Riise.

[weringo]

Gerrard, Alonso,Sissoko and Mascherano are all options to play CM I wouldn't class any of them as squad players.

I think thats what Stu is meaning, quality options rather than squad players.

Personally I'd count both Sissoko and Mascherano as squad players... BUT good squad players. Players who have a use and aren't so limited that when you put them in the team (ala Zenden) you're effectively playing with 10 men.

In other words thats pretty much what I meant.

Why do you say Mascherano is a squad player? Imo he's one of the top 5 holding midfielders in the world, he reads the game extremely well and his passing is simple yet effective, he's maybe not the physical presence of someone like Makalele but hes still relatively young at 23.

[LFC2007]

Bob thats the exact point mate. We don't need major surgery. But we need absoloute class to come in to take us to another level. People bang on about options, and options of course are great.


......


Come that summer though, Rafa spent £30,000,000 and managed to weaken the squad now taking us to 4-6 players away.

You say that but wouldn't you consider players who are better than the current team that need to come in top class?

After all you agreed with Bob in a post he made suggesting we needed 2-3 top players MAXIMUM, that we didn't need major surgery, and then you went on to say we needed AT LEAST 3 top class players, which is it, you chop and change all the time.

Given that you don't want to see squad players coming in and that you have said before we need top class to come in not "options". Is it 4-6 top class players or just 2 or 3 as you agreed with Bob about, you dismissed people talking about "options" so presumably they must all be players who are top class.

Read the posts. I clearly state we needed 4-6 players. Not 2-3. I clearly state I agree in principle with what Bob says in that we don't need major surgery. I also said I don't consider 4-6 players major surgery as its less than 25% of the squad.

The numbers we have are correct, its just the quality that is lacking.

Given that you said we shouldn't be thinking about "options" any more, the CLEAR implication is that those 4-6 players must be at least top quality players.

I consider 4-6 top players major surgery which is the principle that Bob was making a point against.

So you agree with Bob's principle, yet you think we need 4-6 players that are not "options" - excuse me for making the inference but if "options" are not squad players then what are they?

So you're nit picking over what you think is and isn't major surgery because you can't find any other point?

Bellend.

Nit picking? I'm pointing out how inconsistent you are with your opinions, one minute you agree with Bob that 2-3 players max is enough then it goes to 4-6 players, then it goes to AT LEAST 3 top players, you don't want "options" so by very basic inference you think these 4-6 players must be top class at least.

Tosspot

[Bad Bob]

I am saying we spent £8million on a stopgap. We could have bought Malouda , Mancini , Simao for about £12 million and hopefully saved having to buy a replacement this season, we spent £6million on Bellamy another stopgap who has done no better than Cisse did, and £10 million on Kuyt who has done no better than earn another season, plus Gonzales plus Palletta plus Aurellio who although not costing that much to sign still cost a lot in wages.

If we had bought 2 quality players maybe we wouldnt now be in the position of still needing a striker and a right winger.

For £16million accepting Kuyts purchase I think we could have got better than Pennant.

Arbeloa was another argument we needed cover and he was cheap, and an acceptable stopgap.

Mascherano was quality and I think a great loan, who actually improves us as a team.

Saint, mate, my head's spinning now and I can't tell anymore if this helps your point or mine ( ) but I've been doing some transfer fee checking and it looks like Pennant only cost as 6.7 million.  Also, Kuyt was apparently closer to 9 million.  You say stop-gap, I say good business during a period of limited transfer funds, I guess.

What I am sure of is that Cisse's not good enough and no amount comparing his strike rate to Bellamy's will convince me that that wasn't just good business.  Of course, for 3 million more Rafa could have activated Owen's release clause last summer.  Sure, he'd still have been crocked all season but at least we'd be buying a player who is clearly better than Cisse! 

[LFC2007]

Gerrard, Alonso,Sissoko and Mascherano are all options to play CM I wouldn't class any of them as squad players.

I think thats what Stu is meaning, quality options rather than squad players.

By the time I'v posted you have moved on three times 

No he dismissed people talking about "options" - inferring that Benayoun and co are not good enough - so presumably all the players he wants us to sign must be players who will go straight into the first team or are top quality, like Alves, Malouda, Owen, Anelka, Ashton etc. How does he think we will be able to afford 6 players of that Calibre? Is he going to chip in with his pocket money?

[account deleted by request]

I am saying we spent £8million on a stopgap. We could have bought Malouda , Mancini , Simao for about £12 million and hopefully saved having to buy a replacement this season, we spent £6million on Bellamy another stopgap who has done no better than Cisse did, and £10 million on Kuyt who has done no better than earn another season, plus Gonzales plus Palletta plus Aurellio who although not costing that much to sign still cost a lot in wages.

If we had bought 2 quality players maybe we wouldnt now be in the position of still needing a striker and a right winger.

For £16million accepting Kuyts purchase I think we could have got better than Pennant.

Arbeloa was another argument we needed cover and he was cheap, and an acceptable stopgap.

Mascherano was quality and I think a great loan, who actually improves us as a team.

Saint, mate, my head's spinning now and I can't tell anymore if this helps your point or mine ( ) but I've been doing some transfer fee checking and it looks like Pennant only cost as 6.7 million.  Also, Kuyt was apparently closer to 9 million.  You say stop-gap, I say good business during a period of limited transfer funds, I guess.

What I am sure of is that Cisse's not good enough and no amount comparing his strike rate to Bellamy's will convince me that that wasn't just good business.  Of course, for 3 million more Rafa could have activated Owen's release clause last summer.  Sure, he'd still have been crocked all season but at least we'd be buying a player who is clearly better than Cisse! 

I'll settle for that Bob 

Although I don't class Kuyt as a stop gap, hes still in my pending tray.

[account deleted by request]

Gerrard, Alonso,Sissoko and Mascherano are all options to play CM I wouldn't class any of them as squad players.

I think thats what Stu is meaning, quality options rather than squad players.

By the time I'v posted you have moved on three times 

No he dismissed people talking about "options" - inferring that Benayoun and co are not good enough - so presumably all the players he wants us to sign must be players who will go straight into the first team or are top quality, like Alves, Malouda, Owen, Anelka, Ashton etc. How does he think we will be able to afford 6 players of that Calibre? Is he going to chip in with his pocket money?

Thats where my sneaky buy some top quality players now, buy some next year plan comes into effect. 

[Bad Bob]

Look, mate, I hear what you're saying but I just don't think it's financially reasonable.  Take, for instance, your suggestion about signing Klose last summer instead of Bellamy to complement Crouch and Kuyt.  Well, there was no way we were going to be able to afford both Klose and Kuyt.  Just as we couldn't afford to sign both Alves and Kuyt.  Until the new owners came in--and even then there's debate--Rafa has simply not had the cash to follow your strategy of "signing one top class player and two very good players" in a single transfer window. 

Look at the numbers this summer if you don't believe me.  Say we wanted to sign a top class striker and two good wingers.  Well, Eto'o is rumoured to cost around 30 million, Villa's up in that price bracket too, while Torres and Tevez may be in the neighbourhood of 25 million.  As for good wingers, we've got Malouda valued around 17 million, Mancini around the same and Simao a comparative bargain in the 12-14 million range.  So, we're looking at spending in the neighbourhood of 50-55 million to get the kind of signings your advocating.  There was no chance Rafa had that kind of cash to spend in previous years and I'd be very surprised if he has that kind of cash to spend now.

We’ll have to agree to disagree on your point about it not being financially reasonable, because signing one top class player and then weighing up the options afterwards is a more gradual and sensible option than signing three or four fringe players and then two good players, because sooner or later you have to rip that team up and make numerous changes and this will no doubt upset the balance of the team and will undo the gelling of the team. In contrast when gradual change is made the balance is slowly changing at a reasonable rate (of nauts), it’s a much more conservative approach and one that can work when shown respect and patience.

Rafa could have afforded both Klose and Kuyt if he wanted both players, Klose was rated at £13m last season by Werder Bremen, he has now been snapped up for £10m by Bayern as he was in the last season of his contract and refused to renew it. After the purchases of both players the transfer’s budget would leave Rafa with around £7m to spend (that is of course if we paid for Gonzales the season we couldn’t get a work permit for him) and Pennant could have been bought for the same price. Aurelio came on a free transfer, so Rafa would have purchased Klose, Kuyt, Aurelio, Gonzales and Pennant. The Pennant transfer is not ideal to me; he is not in the long term going to claim a regular first team starting place because he simply isn’t good enough. I can see the logic behind his signing, even if I did not and do not support his signing.

Benitez could have afforded the transfers of Alves and Kuyt; he refused to pay the price which Sevilla was asking for, which was the right thing to do after Sevilla tried to squeeze more money out of Benitez.  If I remember correctly, Sevilla wanted around £14m-£16m and Kuyt cost £10m, that’s £26m for two players who would no doubt slot into the first team. Of course if we signed Alves we couldn’t sign Klose, I know I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer, even I know this.

I accept your point, my comment about us signing one top class player and two very good players was an inaccurate comment to make, and I didn’t explain myself well on that particular point. What I meant was, if Benitez had been more concerned with improving the first team and then signing fringe players to bolster the squad, he could have signed a top player and possibly one good player and then some players on a free transfer who wouldn’t cost much like Aurelio and Zenden Benitez hasn’t been overly shrewd in the transfer market and hasn’t maximised his outlook in the transfer market to great benefit of the club.  This has no reflection on all of his signings, the likes of Alonso, Reina, Garcia, Sissoko and Agger have been very good signings.

Oh, I do believe you, I have seen the figures being branded about, and I have also seen figures being thrown around about the size of our transfer budget. Gillett and Hicks have stated on numerous occasions that Rafa will have money to spend and if the rumours are true that Benitez is in talks with Torres and if the reported fee is correct or near the actual price then we have much more money to spend then last summer. This means Rafa should be able to spend more than £30m on players, which if spent correctly will help us progress, at the moment until a player or players are signed, us fans will just have to sit and wait.

I’m not advocating a Chelsea spending spree or a football manager styled spending spree, where you can get a player like Simao for next to nothing, I am simply stating my belief that if Benitez was a bit shrewder in the transfer window he could have maximised the miserly budget in a more successful manner. Of course if Rafa wants to buy Eto’o, he’ll have to bid more than £30m, Barcelona will want to break the all time transfer record for the sale of Eto’o, so Rafa would have to stump up the funds.

However on the flipside he doesn’t need to spend that much on a striker, that’s entirely his prerogative of he chooses to do so, someone of Klose’s ability has left Bremen for £10m, Henry has just left Arsenal for £16m, and Luca Toni left Italy for around £6m-£7m to Bayern Munich. Owen is rated at £9m and despite his injuries he is a very accomplished player with a superb goal scoring record.

As for wingers, well Malouda might cost £17m, Simao might cost £17m, and if Benitez wants to pay such a price then again that’s his prerogative. With the miserly budget of £30m, the purchase of both players wouldn’t happen at once, it would happen maybe one season after the other, which isn’t exactly a terrible thing (and I am pretty sure he could cut those prices down by a few million). Unless there are impatient fans, then for them it would painful.

Why would you be surprised if Rafa has £40m-£60m for transfers? I expect there to be more than £30m for players seeing as Moores sold the club to the duo on the basis that Rafa’s ambitions would be met and Rafa’s first choice targets would be signed? (I’m ignoring the stadium here, which as we know is another reason why Moores sold his shares), I will be angry if Rafa has to resort to signing his second or third choice targets; we won’t progress if this keeps happening every summer.

Fair points, mate, fair points. 

One thing that may be getting lost sight of in this discussion of transfer fees is who Rafa actually rates and is wanting to sign.  Take Klose for example.  He may have been affordable last season if your 13 million figure is accurate but I think Rafa rated Kuyt higher and was not looking to have them both (he wanted to replace Cisse with another striker with pace, hence the interest in Bellamy rather than Klose).  Undoubtedly there will be many players--including many affordable players--that look like they would be good signings for us that Rafa won't go for.  Does that mean he has a poor eye for talent?  Maybe, and that, after all, is what we are debating in this thread.

I think, however, that we need to have more patience with a few of these players before we lob them into the "bad signing" bin.  Kuyt may yet find the form that allowed him to score 71 goals in 101 games in Holland.  Aurelio may recover from injury to become our starting LB (remember how rubbish Evra looked when he first signed for the Mancs?).  Pennant may kick on from his strong finish and become a good player for us.  Just as having patience with Crouch and Agger has paid of, we should give some of the new lads a little bit more time before we completely consider them fringe players and stop-gaps.

[Penguins]

Its not about what he's wasted. NONE of Rafa's signings have been a disaster, none of them have been what I'd class as poor. All have served a purpose.

Again I will say it, the problem I have is, he's not signed enough quality. He's signed decent players when he could have had excellent players for the same money.

But you said he's come nowhere near Houllier in terms of signings, so I'm assuming you consider Diouf, Diao, Biscan, Heggem and co all to have served a purpose, what purpose did Diao and Diouf serve exactly?

If none of Rafa's signings have been a disaster what were Cisse, Diouf and Diao? £30m of sh!t.

Yet Rafa has yet to reach Houllier's level of ability in signing players! 

Oh right, why don't we compare Frode Kippe to Alonso aswell?

What about comparing Patrice Luzi to Reina aswell to strengthen your case even further... Infact, why don't we also just for the fun of it, compare signing Mascherano with Bruno Cheyrou...

How about we look at things in a little more perspective...

Hyypia instead of Josemi
Babbel instead of Kromkamp
Finnan instead of Arbeloa
Henchoz instead of Hobbs/Antwi/Roque/Pellegrino
Riise instead of Insua
Hamann instead of Nunez

Oh wait... they wouldn't suit ur arguement would they?

I have plenty of perspective, you've just taken it to the extreme of comparing youngsters like Insua to Riise. Henchoz to Roque and Antwi. Agger or Henchoz? Agger any day mate, Hyypia may have been more consistent in his latter years than Agger, but Agger has plenty of time to reach that level and he is not far off at this moment IMO. He's 22 FFS, how many other teams have a player of his defensive ability at his age?

You say Rafa is nowhere near reaching Houllier's level of ability to spot talent, yet you say he p!ssed nigh on £30m last year? Well I consider the £30m Houllier p!ssed on Diouf, Cisse and Diao significantly worse than that of Kuyt, Bellamy and Pennant. And that was at the end of Houllier's reign - shows what he learnt about bringing in top talent.

Players like Carragher, Finnan and Riise may have been spotted by Houllier but they never performed great under him, Carra wasn't the defender he is today under Houllier, it's only under Benitez that he's come on - the same applies to a lesser extent with Finnan and Riise.

Totally agree.

GH was pishawful overall with finidng players with ability.

Diao and Diof went for a fee of 15 million just cause of a good world cup and were overhyped. And then Cissé who can do one thing, run, for 14 million.
From those transfers we will get back 10 million!
And that is not for any other reason than that they are not better!

If we were to sell Kuyt, Bellamy and Pennant today, who cost around 25 million, we'd bring back around 25 million.

So there is a difference pishing away £20 million and £0.

[Emerald Red]

You're all mad. Mad I say!

[account deleted by request]

I think like a few on here Penguins you are being a bit harsh on Cisse. Cisse would have done much better under Houlliers long ball over the top tactics (perfected for Owen) than under Benitez. Cisse may not be the complete footballer (don't laugh), but I think the change of manager (just before he arrived) and style of play did him no favours.

I am not saying he would have been the next Henry, but he would have been a decent if slightly overpriced player rather than a total failure.

Not that this affects your argument as I agree with you Diouf and Diao were poor value for money.