Liverpool FC Forum

s@int wrote:Why would a black manager be worse than a white one? I am arguing for choosing a manager on ability not colour. I find it hard to believe that no black player has displayed the abilitys required to become a manager. It would be equally wrong to pick a black manager over a white on grounds of colour.

taff wrote:Marciano was a true great and for some reason hardly mentioned but he remained undefeated.  Most boxing purists will say he deserves to be up there with the greats og heavyweight boxing.  Joe Louis was way past yes but you only fight who is there with you at the time.  Although Louis probably deserves the accolade as the best heavyweight of all time

Before you shout Ali, technically he had fighters better than him but IMO one of the greatest humans in sport of all time which is a different thing.  White manager as well  (joke)

I remember in the late sixties there was a computerised fight between Marciano and Ali. They took it very seriously using their measurements, how they moved how hard they punched etc.

Marciano won the comp fight. Ali was absolutely furious, said that only in America could a 12 stone fighter with the shortest reach in boxing history beat him.

He didnt like to lose even to a computerised boxer 

woof woof ! wrote:Didn't the ex leeds player Carlton Palmer (?) go in to club management ?


Some might find this a worthwhile read.



Reach for the Sky - link to their websiteIs 'Institutional Racism' Being Tackled in Football?
March 2 2004

"I remember when I was at West Brom; we went to West Ham, and there's Cyrille [Regis] and myself, and as I was running out to my side of the pitch just for a warm up [and] all I could see was a lot of bananas coming towards me and I thought 'how do you react to that?' So I picked one up, peeled it and pretended to eat it. I threw one to Cyrille he stuck it down his shorts and we volleyed a few back into the crowd. But all we could think of was 'we've got to win this game' and a lot of times the racial abuse that we had actually acted as a spur to us giving a good performance. We were just interested in winning the game." - Brendan Batson (former player and former Deputy of the Professional Footballer's Association)

Life for a black footballer in the seventies was tough. Every time a black player touched the ball, they'd get booed by members of the crowd. It was as if no one was on their side. It was almost like they had no supporters. It was like they had no sense of belonging. The majority of black players did, like Batson, have the will to succeed. Former Tottenham forward turned BBC presenter Garth Crooks was another pioneer that had to endure the terror of racial abuse.

"It wasn't a time where you could afford to be sensitive and worry about what people said to you," he says. "It was a time where you had to prove that your talent was good enough or better than the people you were playing against to convince people that you were really really good and that you were worthy to be on the field. So the seventies and eighties was a difficult time but successful for black players I think."

Given Batson's and Crooks' personal experiences, it's no surprise there's been an increase of black players in English football. That may sound like a contradiction. But the generation of ground-breaking black players in the seventies paved the way for current England internationals like Rio Ferdinand and Darius Vassell, and the growing number of multi-ethnic players now evident at all professional clubs because of the dignified way they conducted themselves in the face of adversity. Unlike many white footballers, like Bryan Robson, Kevin Keegan and Tony Adams, the transition into management for former black players has not been as smooth. Where these players once had to face racism on the terraces, they now have to fight the institution to gain managerial and coaching positions. It's clearly a major issue in football and one the Let's Kick Racism Out of Football Campaign will be looking to address.

The campaign recently celebrated its 10th anniversary at the Great Eastern Hotel in Central London. Initiated by the CRE (Commission for Racial Equality) and PFA (Professional Footballer's Association), and run by the independent organisation Kick It Out (since 1997), the campaign has made great strides since its inception. It is now sponsored by The Football Association and the FA Premier League; it has put racism high on the agenda while its 10-point action plan has been adopted by the European governing body UEFA. Its presence and educative initiatives have also improved conditions for many black players; current Arsenal and England international full-back Ashley Cole being one of them.

"Of course I've only been playing a few years but from what I've heard from ex-players [about] how much abuse they got because they were black; until now I've not really, in the Premiership, been racially abused. It's only when I've gone away, abroad, I've been racially abused. So I think in this country this campaign has really changed it."

But former England international and ardent supporter of the campaign Paul Elliott acknowledges further changes need to be made. "Over the next five or ten years we've got to get more of the players in coaching, more in the managerial sector, and more so in the boardroom and that's the area that needs improving."

It is estimated that black players make up between 20-25% of those in the game today. Yet this is not reflected in the percentage of black managers and coaches in the professional game. The Premiership, for example; of the 130+ coaching and managerial positions, only two are occupied by blacks - Chris Hughton (at Tottenham) and Terry Connor (Wolves). Indeed, in a recent report by the Independent Football Commission, as reported by the Daily Mirror (4th February 2004), it branded UK football as "institutionally racist."

"When are we going to have regular black managers? When are we going to have regular black coaches? When are we going to have regular black chief executives of football clubs, and directors? It's all about working very hard to achieve those things, but first and foremost, can we accept the charge that we're good enough? We've got to be good enough first, well, I think we are," says Crooks.

The Daily Mirror's account of this report also said that: "Its authors say the [Let's Kick The Racism Out of Football Campaign] initiative has been ineffective." It has, however, been effective in creating an awareness of black people's rich history in the domestic game.

Black players had, of course, been around for many years before the seventies. Andrew Watson played for the London Swifts in the FA Cup in 1882, while Arthur Wharton turned out for Preston North End in 1886. Former Tottenham and Northampton star Walter Tull followed in the early 1900s. As a consequence more black players emerged throughout the 20th Century like Paul Reaney and Albert Johannson; although none more so than in the seventies. Clyde Best, Viv Anderson, Laurie Cunningham and Cyrille Regis were just some of the major names of this period. The British public were shocked at seeing so many black players. And the climate was such that their reaction to this relatively new phenomenon was largely negative. It was a time when race relations were at its worse. The surge in black players playing Division One football was sandwiched by politician Enoch Powell's ill-famed 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the rise of both Thatcherism and the racist NF [National Front] party; a time when the nation feared the increasing presence of black people in the country. Despite this, great progress was made.

Since these players succeeded, fans had to think twice before making stupid comments. A lot more black players were seeing first team action too because managers, in pursuit of success, would put them on if they were good; regardless of race. So they had to perform their best to impress the crowd. In November 1978 Nottingham Forest defender Viv Anderson became the first black player to represent England. The late Laurie Cunningham became the first black Brit to play in the Spanish first division. Further progression was made in the eighties and nineties with players like Paul Ince (the first black player to captain the English national team), Luther Blissett (first black player to score a hat-trick for England) and John Barnes (who won 79 caps for England). Still, former stars like Barnes and Blissett have failed to secure coaching positions.

Black managers and coaches are just asking for a chance to succeed. Black players have added a lot to the game on the pitch; it's surely the time for them to be given the chance to contribute off it. While football has done great job in combating racism on the terraces, it's time for those in the authorities to lead by example and start fighting the covert racism that lies within.

"If we're good enough," says Crooks, "let's continue to insist that opportunities must be given to us just to prove the fact that we're good enough because we can add things to the game."


This story was produced by Danyel Edwards, 17 and Nestor Sayo, 12. It was published on Sky television's Reach for the Sky website.

A good read that woof. I wish you had found it earlier it would have saved me a lot of time arguing.