Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Sorry posted in error

[taff]

Why would a black manager be worse than a white one? I am arguing for choosing a manager on ability not colour. I find it hard to believe that no black player has displayed the abilitys required to become a manager. It would be equally wrong to pick a black manager over a white on grounds of colour.

Fair point but I find it harder to believe that a football club would not try and get the best manager regardless of colour etc.

[account deleted by request]

I will even agree that more could be done etc to get more black managers but what fan would want their club being the one that gets a manager not as good as the one they wanted but they can be proud they are improving things in society

Why would a black manager be worse than a white one? I am arguing for choosing a manager on ability not colour. I find it hard to believe that no black player has displayed the abilities required to become a manager. It would be equally wrong to pick a black manager over a white on grounds of colour.

Rocky Marciano fought after Joe Louis so came across the best black Americans, but he was a tough as nails Italian American from a tough neighbourhood who battered everyone in front of him, he was more intimidating than Tyson]

I know about Rocky Marciano who was a great fighter BUT because of Racism in the USA at the time he was allowed to get away with every dirty trick in the book because they were desperate to keep a white man as champion

When he fought Ezzard Charles? he was being hammered and the ref was ready to stop the fight. He deliberately butted Charles and then hit him about 15 times most of which while Charles was on the floor.

Needless to say the ref saw no foul

As for fighting Lewis, Lewis was way passed his sell by date by the time they met.

Sorry Taff I made a balls up and posted too early before.

[taff]

Marciano was a true great and for some reason hardly mentioned but he remained undefeated.  Most boxing purists will say he deserves to be up there with the greats og heavyweight boxing.  Joe Louis was way past yes but you only fight who is there with you at the time.  Although Louis probably deserves the accolade as the best heavyweight of all time

Before you shout Ali, technically he had fighters better than him but IMO one of the greatest humans in sport of all time which is a different thing.  White manager as well  (joke)

[account deleted by request]

Marciano was a true great and for some reason hardly mentioned but he remained undefeated.  Most boxing purists will say he deserves to be up there with the greats og heavyweight boxing.  Joe Louis was way past yes but you only fight who is there with you at the time.  Although Louis probably deserves the accolade as the best heavyweight of all time

Before you shout Ali, technically he had fighters better than him but IMO one of the greatest humans in sport of all time which is a different thing.  White manager as well  (joke)

I remember in the late sixties there was a computerised fight between Marciano and Ali. They took it very seriously using their measurements, how they moved how hard they punched etc.

Marciano won the comp fight. Ali was absolutely furious, said that only in America could a 12 stone fighter with the shortest reach in boxing history beat him.

He didnt like to lose even to a computerised boxer 

[woof woof !]

Didn't the ex leeds player Carlton Palmer (?) go in to club management ?


Some might find this a worthwhile read.



Reach for the Sky - link to their websiteIs 'Institutional Racism' Being Tackled in Football?
March 2 2004

"I remember when I was at West Brom; we went to West Ham, and there's Cyrille [Regis] and myself, and as I was running out to my side of the pitch just for a warm up [and] all I could see was a lot of bananas coming towards me and I thought 'how do you react to that?' So I picked one up, peeled it and pretended to eat it. I threw one to Cyrille he stuck it down his shorts and we volleyed a few back into the crowd. But all we could think of was 'we've got to win this game' and a lot of times the racial abuse that we had actually acted as a spur to us giving a good performance. We were just interested in winning the game." - Brendan Batson (former player and former Deputy of the Professional Footballer's Association)

Life for a black footballer in the seventies was tough. Every time a black player touched the ball, they'd get booed by members of the crowd. It was as if no one was on their side. It was almost like they had no supporters. It was like they had no sense of belonging. The majority of black players did, like Batson, have the will to succeed. Former Tottenham forward turned BBC presenter Garth Crooks was another pioneer that had to endure the terror of racial abuse.

"It wasn't a time where you could afford to be sensitive and worry about what people said to you," he says. "It was a time where you had to prove that your talent was good enough or better than the people you were playing against to convince people that you were really really good and that you were worthy to be on the field. So the seventies and eighties was a difficult time but successful for black players I think."

Given Batson's and Crooks' personal experiences, it's no surprise there's been an increase of black players in English football. That may sound like a contradiction. But the generation of ground-breaking black players in the seventies paved the way for current England internationals like Rio Ferdinand and Darius Vassell, and the growing number of multi-ethnic players now evident at all professional clubs because of the dignified way they conducted themselves in the face of adversity. Unlike many white footballers, like Bryan Robson, Kevin Keegan and Tony Adams, the transition into management for former black players has not been as smooth. Where these players once had to face racism on the terraces, they now have to fight the institution to gain managerial and coaching positions. It's clearly a major issue in football and one the Let's Kick Racism Out of Football Campaign will be looking to address.

The campaign recently celebrated its 10th anniversary at the Great Eastern Hotel in Central London. Initiated by the CRE (Commission for Racial Equality) and PFA (Professional Footballer's Association), and run by the independent organisation Kick It Out (since 1997), the campaign has made great strides since its inception. It is now sponsored by The Football Association and the FA Premier League; it has put racism high on the agenda while its 10-point action plan has been adopted by the European governing body UEFA. Its presence and educative initiatives have also improved conditions for many black players; current Arsenal and England international full-back Ashley Cole being one of them.

"Of course I've only been playing a few years but from what I've heard from ex-players [about] how much abuse they got because they were black; until now I've not really, in the Premiership, been racially abused. It's only when I've gone away, abroad, I've been racially abused. So I think in this country this campaign has really changed it."

But former England international and ardent supporter of the campaign Paul Elliott acknowledges further changes need to be made. "Over the next five or ten years we've got to get more of the players in coaching, more in the managerial sector, and more so in the boardroom and that's the area that needs improving."

It is estimated that black players make up between 20-25% of those in the game today. Yet this is not reflected in the percentage of black managers and coaches in the professional game. The Premiership, for example; of the 130+ coaching and managerial positions, only two are occupied by blacks - Chris Hughton (at Tottenham) and Terry Connor (Wolves). Indeed, in a recent report by the Independent Football Commission, as reported by the Daily Mirror (4th February 2004), it branded UK football as "institutionally racist."

"When are we going to have regular black managers? When are we going to have regular black coaches? When are we going to have regular black chief executives of football clubs, and directors? It's all about working very hard to achieve those things, but first and foremost, can we accept the charge that we're good enough? We've got to be good enough first, well, I think we are," says Crooks.

The Daily Mirror's account of this report also said that: "Its authors say the [Let's Kick The Racism Out of Football Campaign] initiative has been ineffective." It has, however, been effective in creating an awareness of black people's rich history in the domestic game.

Black players had, of course, been around for many years before the seventies. Andrew Watson played for the London Swifts in the FA Cup in 1882, while Arthur Wharton turned out for Preston North End in 1886. Former Tottenham and Northampton star Walter Tull followed in the early 1900s. As a consequence more black players emerged throughout the 20th Century like Paul Reaney and Albert Johannson; although none more so than in the seventies. Clyde Best, Viv Anderson, Laurie Cunningham and Cyrille Regis were just some of the major names of this period. The British public were shocked at seeing so many black players. And the climate was such that their reaction to this relatively new phenomenon was largely negative. It was a time when race relations were at its worse. The surge in black players playing Division One football was sandwiched by politician Enoch Powell's ill-famed 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the rise of both Thatcherism and the racist NF [National Front] party; a time when the nation feared the increasing presence of black people in the country. Despite this, great progress was made.

Since these players succeeded, fans had to think twice before making stupid comments. A lot more black players were seeing first team action too because managers, in pursuit of success, would put them on if they were good; regardless of race. So they had to perform their best to impress the crowd. In November 1978 Nottingham Forest defender Viv Anderson became the first black player to represent England. The late Laurie Cunningham became the first black Brit to play in the Spanish first division. Further progression was made in the eighties and nineties with players like Paul Ince (the first black player to captain the English national team), Luther Blissett (first black player to score a hat-trick for England) and John Barnes (who won 79 caps for England). Still, former stars like Barnes and Blissett have failed to secure coaching positions.

Black managers and coaches are just asking for a chance to succeed. Black players have added a lot to the game on the pitch; it's surely the time for them to be given the chance to contribute off it. While football has done great job in combating racism on the terraces, it's time for those in the authorities to lead by example and start fighting the covert racism that lies within.

"If we're good enough," says Crooks, "let's continue to insist that opportunities must be given to us just to prove the fact that we're good enough because we can add things to the game."


This story was produced by Danyel Edwards, 17 and Nestor Sayo, 12. It was published on Sky television's Reach for the Sky website.

[taff]

Good article Woof and thought provoking

But I still sincerely think that with management the stakes are different.  How many of these players have tried to become managers is my question.  Loads of players leave the game white and black. 

Barnes while a great player is probably not a good example to be honest as failing to secure a post. 

I cant argue with the article but would be interested to know how many players apply and has there been instances where equally qualified applicants have been discriminated against.

I cant see any club in the leagues not trying to gain an advantage any which way

[The Ace1983]

But Marciano was a double hard bast@rd! He may well have beaten Ali because he could take a lot of punishment, just like Ali, but his punches were pinpoint accurate and on a par with Tyson. He was a street brawler before he was a boxer. IMHO, he is a true great of the sport and up there with Ali and the rest.

Lando - I wasn't saying that black or asian football managers would have gone to Oxbridge. That was a seperate argument about employment in general.

there is no end to this argument. Race will be used sometimes to determine whether someone gets a job, be it in football or anywhere else and whether it's regular racism or reverse racism, it's always wrong. What makes it worse is that some people will cry "race" when they feel agrieved even if it's not true and this will make it harder for the people who really are victims of prejudice and racism. This applies to every minority or group of people labelled as different and that comes from multiculturalism (yes, I know I'm going on about that word, but it really is the cause of every problem) including the young, the old, women, disabled people or anyone with different ethnicity. If everyone had been treated the same from the beginning, things would be a good deal easier these days.

And Peewee, You're saying that it's easier to be the 1/10 rather than the 9/10? It sounds like you're suggesting that 10% is a bigger number than 90%? I'm not having a go, but by creating these quotas, employers feel pressure which leads to a begrudging feeling towards employing anyone they don't choose on their own. And once this quota is filled, what's to stop employers being guided by prejudice in filling other positions? I'm not saying it's everywhere, but it exists and to say that it is now easier for people of a different ethnicity to get employed than white people because everyone is treated equally just doesn't make sense. But reverse racism is not the answer either because it really should be down to the best candidate for the job. When you see differences, you make differences.

[account deleted by request]

Didn't the ex leeds player Carlton Palmer (?) go in to club management ?


Some might find this a worthwhile read.



Reach for the Sky - link to their websiteIs 'Institutional Racism' Being Tackled in Football?
March 2 2004

"I remember when I was at West Brom; we went to West Ham, and there's Cyrille [Regis] and myself, and as I was running out to my side of the pitch just for a warm up [and] all I could see was a lot of bananas coming towards me and I thought 'how do you react to that?' So I picked one up, peeled it and pretended to eat it. I threw one to Cyrille he stuck it down his shorts and we volleyed a few back into the crowd. But all we could think of was 'we've got to win this game' and a lot of times the racial abuse that we had actually acted as a spur to us giving a good performance. We were just interested in winning the game." - Brendan Batson (former player and former Deputy of the Professional Footballer's Association)

Life for a black footballer in the seventies was tough. Every time a black player touched the ball, they'd get booed by members of the crowd. It was as if no one was on their side. It was almost like they had no supporters. It was like they had no sense of belonging. The majority of black players did, like Batson, have the will to succeed. Former Tottenham forward turned BBC presenter Garth Crooks was another pioneer that had to endure the terror of racial abuse.

"It wasn't a time where you could afford to be sensitive and worry about what people said to you," he says. "It was a time where you had to prove that your talent was good enough or better than the people you were playing against to convince people that you were really really good and that you were worthy to be on the field. So the seventies and eighties was a difficult time but successful for black players I think."

Given Batson's and Crooks' personal experiences, it's no surprise there's been an increase of black players in English football. That may sound like a contradiction. But the generation of ground-breaking black players in the seventies paved the way for current England internationals like Rio Ferdinand and Darius Vassell, and the growing number of multi-ethnic players now evident at all professional clubs because of the dignified way they conducted themselves in the face of adversity. Unlike many white footballers, like Bryan Robson, Kevin Keegan and Tony Adams, the transition into management for former black players has not been as smooth. Where these players once had to face racism on the terraces, they now have to fight the institution to gain managerial and coaching positions. It's clearly a major issue in football and one the Let's Kick Racism Out of Football Campaign will be looking to address.

The campaign recently celebrated its 10th anniversary at the Great Eastern Hotel in Central London. Initiated by the CRE (Commission for Racial Equality) and PFA (Professional Footballer's Association), and run by the independent organisation Kick It Out (since 1997), the campaign has made great strides since its inception. It is now sponsored by The Football Association and the FA Premier League; it has put racism high on the agenda while its 10-point action plan has been adopted by the European governing body UEFA. Its presence and educative initiatives have also improved conditions for many black players; current Arsenal and England international full-back Ashley Cole being one of them.

"Of course I've only been playing a few years but from what I've heard from ex-players [about] how much abuse they got because they were black; until now I've not really, in the Premiership, been racially abused. It's only when I've gone away, abroad, I've been racially abused. So I think in this country this campaign has really changed it."

But former England international and ardent supporter of the campaign Paul Elliott acknowledges further changes need to be made. "Over the next five or ten years we've got to get more of the players in coaching, more in the managerial sector, and more so in the boardroom and that's the area that needs improving."

It is estimated that black players make up between 20-25% of those in the game today. Yet this is not reflected in the percentage of black managers and coaches in the professional game. The Premiership, for example; of the 130+ coaching and managerial positions, only two are occupied by blacks - Chris Hughton (at Tottenham) and Terry Connor (Wolves). Indeed, in a recent report by the Independent Football Commission, as reported by the Daily Mirror (4th February 2004), it branded UK football as "institutionally racist."

"When are we going to have regular black managers? When are we going to have regular black coaches? When are we going to have regular black chief executives of football clubs, and directors? It's all about working very hard to achieve those things, but first and foremost, can we accept the charge that we're good enough? We've got to be good enough first, well, I think we are," says Crooks.

The Daily Mirror's account of this report also said that: "Its authors say the [Let's Kick The Racism Out of Football Campaign] initiative has been ineffective." It has, however, been effective in creating an awareness of black people's rich history in the domestic game.

Black players had, of course, been around for many years before the seventies. Andrew Watson played for the London Swifts in the FA Cup in 1882, while Arthur Wharton turned out for Preston North End in 1886. Former Tottenham and Northampton star Walter Tull followed in the early 1900s. As a consequence more black players emerged throughout the 20th Century like Paul Reaney and Albert Johannson; although none more so than in the seventies. Clyde Best, Viv Anderson, Laurie Cunningham and Cyrille Regis were just some of the major names of this period. The British public were shocked at seeing so many black players. And the climate was such that their reaction to this relatively new phenomenon was largely negative. It was a time when race relations were at its worse. The surge in black players playing Division One football was sandwiched by politician Enoch Powell's ill-famed 'Rivers of Blood' speech and the rise of both Thatcherism and the racist NF [National Front] party; a time when the nation feared the increasing presence of black people in the country. Despite this, great progress was made.

Since these players succeeded, fans had to think twice before making stupid comments. A lot more black players were seeing first team action too because managers, in pursuit of success, would put them on if they were good; regardless of race. So they had to perform their best to impress the crowd. In November 1978 Nottingham Forest defender Viv Anderson became the first black player to represent England. The late Laurie Cunningham became the first black Brit to play in the Spanish first division. Further progression was made in the eighties and nineties with players like Paul Ince (the first black player to captain the English national team), Luther Blissett (first black player to score a hat-trick for England) and John Barnes (who won 79 caps for England). Still, former stars like Barnes and Blissett have failed to secure coaching positions.

Black managers and coaches are just asking for a chance to succeed. Black players have added a lot to the game on the pitch; it's surely the time for them to be given the chance to contribute off it. While football has done great job in combating racism on the terraces, it's time for those in the authorities to lead by example and start fighting the covert racism that lies within.

"If we're good enough," says Crooks, "let's continue to insist that opportunities must be given to us just to prove the fact that we're good enough because we can add things to the game."


This story was produced by Danyel Edwards, 17 and Nestor Sayo, 12. It was published on Sky television's Reach for the Sky website.

A good read that woof. I wish you had found it earlier it would have saved me a lot of time arguing. 

[EddieC]

Firstly I'd just like to say I looked at the start of this thread and expected to find page 3 had turned into one big argument about race/religion, it makes a pleasant change to see it hasn't.

With regards to the topic, I can't see why clubs that are happy to take black players wouldn't be happy to have a black manager if he had the talent. I hope I'm not being too controversial here, but as far as I can see most black players are bought for their physical prowess & athleticism, not their footballing brain (obviously there are exceptions, i.e Henry & Ronaldinho). These sort of players won't make good managers, hence the lack of them making that step.

With regards to Asian players, I believe a lot of it is a cultural thing. The young Asians we have in this country at the moment are the children of the 1st generation, a lot of them that I know are into their football, but have dads that have absolutely no interest at all. Perhaps the next generation will have parents that are into the sport & will encourage their children to get into it from a young age.

[Lando_Griffin]

Could it be that Asian's/people from non-British backgrounds don't want to spend their lives around football? Maybe their upbringing/culture teaches them that family is more important that football.

Let's be honest - if you were a multi-millionaire, would YOU be a*sed about managing a team where you'd constantly be under pressure and scrutiny?

I know I wouldn't.

Unless it was LFC.

[dawson99]

A lot of asian families dont want there children getting into football until at least after university when it is too late, that is changing now but theres a few years before that crop get into the game.

[taff]

Shutup you cockney git (is that racist )

[dawson99]

yes it is you welsh... smelly poo!

[taff]

I am suffering today to be honest,