Liverpool FC Forum

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:37 am

Liverpool changed their defensive line after the Benfica home game last March. We were having problems scoring again(4 goals in 9 games),so Rafa pushed the defence up and Reina was told to act as sweeper behind the defence. We then scored 25 goals in our next 9 games ,but started to conceed a few more goals. We were winning games and playing well,so he stuck with it till the end of the season, with another 11 goals in 4 games. Out of those 13 games played with the higher defensive line however we conceeded at least one goal in 9 of them, which was obviously more than we had previously.

This season Rafa has played with the high defensive line AND with wingers in a 4-4-2 rather than last seasons 4-5-1. Reina is receiving much less protection from the back four and midfield.

This higher line has however lead to confusion with setpieces, as the defence seems uncertain whether to step out (offside trap) leaving Reina to deal with the cross or step back and challenge for the header.

On top of all this we have Reina making simple errors and an ever changing defence who are making similar errors themselves. Once we get the balance right and re-establish confidence and understanding between defence and goalkeeper everything will fall into place.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:57 am

s@int wrote:Liverpool changed their defensive line after the Benfica home game last March. We were having problems scoring again(4 goals in 9 games),so Rafa pushed the defence up and Reina was told to act as sweeper behind the defence. We then scored 25 goals in our next 9 games ,but started to conceed a few more goals. We were winning games and playing well,so he stuck with it till the end of the season, with another 11 goals in 4 games. Out of those 13 games played with the higher defensive line however we conceeded at least one goal in 9 of them, which was obviously more than we had previously.

This season Rafa has played with the high defensive line AND with wingers in a 4-4-2 rather than last seasons 4-5-1. Reina is receiving much less protection from the back four and midfield.

This higher line has however lead to confusion with setpieces, as the defence seems uncertain whether to step out (offside trap) leaving Reina to deal with the cross or step back and challenge for the header.

On top of all this we have Reina making simple errors and an ever changing defence who are making similar errors themselves. Once we get the balance right and re-establish confidence and understanding between defence and goalkeeper everything will fall into place.

100% correct.

EXACTLY why Reina is getting the undeserved stick.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:27 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
s@int wrote:Liverpool changed their defensive line after the Benfica home game last March. We were having problems scoring again(4 goals in 9 games),so Rafa pushed the defence up and Reina was told to act as sweeper behind the defence. We then scored 25 goals in our next 9 games ,but started to conceed a few more goals. We were winning games and playing well,so he stuck with it till the end of the season, with another 11 goals in 4 games. Out of those 13 games played with the higher defensive line however we conceeded at least one goal in 9 of them, which was obviously more than we had previously.

This season Rafa has played with the high defensive line AND with wingers in a 4-4-2 rather than last seasons 4-5-1. Reina is receiving much less protection from the back four and midfield.

This higher line has however lead to confusion with setpieces, as the defence seems uncertain whether to step out (offside trap) leaving Reina to deal with the cross or step back and challenge for the header.

On top of all this we have Reina making simple errors and an ever changing defence who are making similar errors themselves. Once we get the balance right and re-establish confidence and understanding between defence and goalkeeper everything will fall into place.

100% correct.

EXACTLY why Reina is getting the undeserved stick.

High line, deep line, stepping out or holding the line, I'm sorry but that is not an excuse for fans not to question a proffesional premiership goalkeeper. Some of what you said S@int is fair enough and should be taken into consideration when judging Reina. But on the whole the keeper has got to make the right decisions and command his box better than what Reina's been doing IMO.

I dont entirely agree with the setpieces thing you said, whatever the defence does whether it be holding the line or stepping out. If a ball is crossed in, 1. Reina should first make the decisive decision whether to come for it. 2. If he comes for the ball he has to be sure and not get caught in no mans land. Thats part and parcel of being a goalkeeper, also when questioning Reina alot of the time theres nobody else involved when he's been prone to making errors.
The first goal in the F.A cup final for instance, the near post cross/shot from Zamora against West Ham again. The third goal against Everton there are a few others too which are solely down to him.
Also you cant lie the lions share of the blame on the defence, when Reina should be calling for it. He has to let defenders know what he's doing as they cant obviously see behind them, these are all fundementals of goalkeeping, and as I said earlier he's being more exposed now because the defence arent as solid as they were. A top quality keeper even with a shakey defence should communicate and let others no around him what hes doing.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:35 pm

I agree Bamaga man its no reason for fans not to question Reina ,but it perhaps explains to an extent why we have let more goals in (not counting the stupid defensive errors and goalkeeping errors ,which I also included in my previous post).

To command his goal area a keeper needs confidence and a good understanding with his defence. At the moment that understanding is not there and the confidence most certainly isnt. Defensive changes due to injury, the form of Agger etc have led to confusion (ie when Reina nearly broke his neck flipping over Carra's back last week)

The thing I am unsure of is whether Reina is making the call ,or is just coming for the ball.(or making the call in Spanish in the heat of the moment?)

I think you are a bit harsh to blame the first goal in the final on Reina, he came for the ball (shouted?) and would have got it but for Carra getting his legs mixed up. The second goal when he fumbled the ball I would agree was Reina's mistake.

The goal Zamora scored this season is exactly what I was refering to in my previous post. Reina positioned himself more to take the cross (the likely option) than to defend his near post. Zamora miss hit his cross and Reina was late (perhaps not too late?) to the ball, pushing it into his own net.

I think you have made some very good points that can only be laid at Reina's door, communication,and errors of judgement.Drogba's goal in the FA semi is an example of this. Riise mistimes a header - the Liverpool defence have stepped up and Reina has to decide whether to come for the ball or stay on his line. Reina comes for the ball and Drogba scores.

I still think he is our best option as a goalkeeper and will hopefully start to prove it over the coming weeks.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:57 pm

I think you are a bit harsh to blame the first goal in the final on Reina, he came for the ball (shouted?) and would have got it but for Carra getting his legs mixed up. The second goal when he fumbled the ball I would agree was Reina's mistake.

Yeah sorry I meant Ashtons goal, but even still on the Carragher one he could of called and come for it as Carragher didnt get the shout he tried to clear it. Reina in that instance had the play infront of him and could see all around where as Carragher was facing ball but couldnt see Ashton (I think) lurking behind.

I'm not saying he should be dropped, not yet anyway but he needs to find something from somewhere soon. I think he's been quite lucky under Rafa, because I doubt very much Dudek would of had as many chances like Pepe 'The Cat' Reina with his nine or so lives. I think its time for Reina to put back some of the faith shown in him by Benitez .

by **Graeme Noble** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:32 pm

I think Dudek should be given a run, and lets see if he can do any better than Reina.
Remember the 3 games last year when Dudek played? He did fine then.

by **stmichael** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:37 pm

no don't rotate them, just play them both at once.

i mean ffs, those who advocate dropping reina and bringing dudek back in have got short memories.

by **redmikey** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 3:51 pm

Graeme Noble wrote:I think Dudek should be given a run, and lets see if he can do any better than Reina.
Remember the 3 games last year when Dudek played? He did fine then.

that kind of attitude will see us in the inter toto cup with nigel worthington as manager he did fine my :censored:

anyone who would replace pepe with dudek is a joke, dudek know's he has had his moment of glory and is happy to be back up, and he is good back up

goal keeper are always living in fear of an error as they have no one to clear it up

for people to say pepe only did well because our defence was better last year, well done you fecking geniuses

cech has hardly anything to do but he dose step up when needed, so did pepe last year put cech in the watford team and see if he is still world's no1 ,

imo until scot carson is a serious threat rafa will stick by pepe quite rightly to as he is a class young keeper,

fickle fans should be burnt at the stake

by **82-1074641017** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:31 pm

Dropping him isnt the answer, he is just going through a bad spell.
Its totally the wrong time to make changes, keep Confidence in Reina and Im sure his confidence will improve as time goes on.
Hes going through a bad spell at the moment it happens to all Goalkeepers.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:17 am

Bamaga man wrote:but even still on the Carragher one he could of called and come for it as Carragher didnt get the shout he tried to clear it.

Sorry mate, that's b*llocks. Carragher tried to let the ball go through his legs to Pepe, but caught it with his trailing foot and it went in.

At no point did he try to clear it.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:22 am

redmikey wrote:
Graeme Noble wrote:I think Dudek should be given a run, and lets see if he can do any better than Reina.
Remember the 3 games last year when Dudek played? He did fine then.

that kind of attitude will see us in the inter toto cup with nigel worthington as manager he did fine my

anyone who would replace pepe with dudek is a joke, dudek know's he has had his moment of glory and is happy to be back up, and he is good back up

goal keeper are always living in fear of an error as they have no one to clear it up

for people to say pepe only did well because our defence was better last year, well done you fecking geniuses

cech has hardly anything to do but he dose step up when needed, so did pepe last year put cech in the watford team and see if he is still world's no1 ,

imo until scot carson is a serious threat rafa will stick by pepe quite rightly to as he is a class young keeper,

fickle fans should be burnt at the stake

Bang on.

Dudek conceded goals in every game he played last season, with the same defence infront of him as Pepe had for his record-breaking clean sheets.

That tells it's own story.
If the defence was SOOOO good, and Dudek is a better bet than Reina, why did they fail to keep a clean sheet between them?
And don't come back with "they weren't used to playing with each other" because that is utter sh*t.

Pepe is the best 'keeper we have had for over a decade.

Now stop talking out of your a*seholes.

by **66-1112520797** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:50 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:but even still on the Carragher one he could of called and come for it as Carragher didnt get the shout he tried to clear it.

Sorry mate, that's b*llocks. Carragher tried to let the ball go through his legs to Pepe, but caught it with his trailing foot and it went in.

At no point did he try to clear it.

Are you on about the the F.a cup final ?

If so I remember a ball being crossed in about 8 yrds out to the near post, Carragher was the only player near the ball as Dean Ashton was lurking in a more central position.

Now if Carra had got a call from Reina, he could of let the cross make its way into Reina's arms. But as it was Carragher didnt get the call so try to put it out for a corner, which he well and truly messed up and resulted in an O.g.

Thats where Reina lacks IMO where world class goalkeepers dont, making that split second decision whether to come for the ball or not, keepers cannot hesitate in these situations and for me Reina doesnt get the bulk of the calls right often enough. This tied in with his communication is what seems to be letting him down at the moment, and he'll have to get his confidence up soon otherwise the defence will become panicked as they were when Dudek was going through his rough patch.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:13 am

Bamaga man wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:but even still on the Carragher one he could of called and come for it as Carragher didnt get the shout he tried to clear it.

Sorry mate, that's b*llocks. Carragher tried to let the ball go through his legs to Pepe, but caught it with his trailing foot and it went in.

At no point did he try to clear it.

Are you on about the the F.a cup final ?

If so I remember a ball being crossed in about 8 yrds out to the near post, Carragher was the only player near the ball as Dean Ashton was lurking in a more central position.

Now if Carra had got a call from Reina, he could of let the cross make its way into Reina's arms. But as it was Carragher didnt get the call so try to put it out for a corner, which he well and truly messed up and resulted in an O.g.

Thats where Reina lacks IMO where world class goalkeepers dont, making that split second decision whether to come for the ball or not, keepers cannot hesitate in these situations and for me Reina doesnt get the bulk of the calls right often enough. This tied in with his communication is what seems to be letting him down at the moment, and he'll have to get his confidence up soon otherwise the defence will become panicked as they were when Dudek was going through his rough patch.

Yes, I am referring to the FA Cup final.

If you watch the incident again, JC is trying to allow the ball through, but it catches his trailing leg, resulting in an own goal.

Pepe cannot be blamed for that as I think you'll find he probably DID get a call, but couldn't adjust in such a confined space.

Here is the incident, if you'd care to check:

JC's Own Goal

by **account deleted by request** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:27 am

Dudek had a 'mare for the reserves tonight, let in 4 ,but only two were Dudek's fault from what I heard. Robbie scored as we lost 4-1 at home to Newcastle. Warnock and Peltier got injured as well

. Pennant played poorly and was takenoff after 60 mins.

edit
Warnock went off feeling ill not injured.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:28 am

s@int wrote:Dudek had a 'mare for the reserves tonight, let in 4 ,but only two were Dudek's fault from what I heard. Robbie scored as we lost 4-1 at home to Newcastle. Warnock and Peltier got injured as well . Pennant played poorly and was takenoff after 60 mins.

Bet we'll still hear " Bring back Dudek".

There is a reason Pepe is our 1st choice, people:

He's the best we've got. :;):

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