Liverpool FC Forum

by **CardinalRed** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:42 pm

This is making me angry.... Let's not just heap it all on Pepe, alright, his confidence may have taken a knock but our esteemed Centre Halves just ain't cutting the mustard right now, they are supposed to protect a keeper. I'm the first to give kudos to Carra, Sami and Danny but it's time they stepped up to the plate and stopped conceding what appear to be soft goals.... I know the crosses that we've faced in the last week were particularly good ones but this supply has to be either dealt with in the middle or cut off before they are crossed in the first place.... if this becomes our achilles heel we are in for a long winter.....

:cool:

by **RUSHIE#9** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:40 pm

CardinalRed wrote:This is making me angry.... Let's not just heap it all on Pepe, alright, his confidence may have taken a knock but our esteemed Centre Halves just ain't cutting the mustard right now, they are supposed to protect a keeper. I'm the first to give kudos to Carra, Sami and Danny but it's time they stepped up to the plate and stopped conceding what appear to be soft goals.... I know the crosses that we've faced in the last week were particularly good ones but this supply has to be either dealt with in the middle or cut off before they are crossed in the first place.... if this becomes our achilles heel we are in for a long winter.....

Spot on Cardinal; this is were I was getting at it being a knee-jerk reaction. Pepe has made a couple of glaring errors that have cost us goals and people are jumping to the conclusion that HE is the one and only problem, not the defenders in front of him and the midfield in front of them.
Whether Dudek is any better or worse than Reina is only gonna come down to a matter of opinion at the end of the day. In his first season Dudek wasthe best keeper in england and probably the best keeper in europe. Then the mistakes started to creep in most notably the fuck-up(s) against the Mancs (Forlan) at anfield. I do feel that some people's opinions are clouded by what Dudek pulled-off in Istanbul and the fair argument would be that we shouldn't forget Reina howlers in the cup final before the shoot-out. Head-to-head however Reina is the much better keeper IMO.

Poolinc. wrote:
This is not knee-jerk. I asked a simple question on this site last season "Was Reina so much better than Dudek....." And i got slaughtered by reasonable debate by most, and abused as an ignoramus by some, who couldn't handle an opion at variance with their own! The question is now more topical than last season. So I'll smile and ask again! Is Reina so much better than Dudek, that we discard Dudek down the same road as other keepers in the past? Reina IS NOT! See, I'll answer as well to make it easy for ya, oh and Lando too

Is Reina so much better than Dudek, that we discard Dudek down the same road as other keepers in the past?
As I've said above I believe Reina IS better than Dudek. A defender is always gonna feel better having a keeper that takes command of his area which Dudek has never been great at doing. Reina is showing nerves coming and taking crosses at the moment but his defence are failing to protect him at times and that will be playing on his mind no doubt.
As for discarding Dudek; well he is a very good deputy to have and whilst Carson is out learning his trade on loan then Dudek still has a job to do for LFC but unless Reina starts to make balls-ups like the bluenose 3rd the other week in every game then NO I wouldn't rotate or drop Reina.

by **alessandromagno** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:04 pm

Dudek had a great first season and an Indian summer in the CL Final. Reina had a fine first season too and now some mistakes are creeping in. It should be remembered that for many of the clean sheets last season, Reina really had nothing to do because the defense was playing so well.

Anyway, it really depends how things go from here. I'd say both Reina and Dudek (at their best) are far better than most keepers. If one ain't cutting the mustard, then give the other a chance.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:52 pm

Don't be daft.

by **Kash_Mountain** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:06 pm

Pepe Reina is doing ok, all keepers go through a rough patch, this is his. His confidence is low and dropping him now would only serve to make it even worst. Having said that, it "may" benefit him to sit on the bench for a couple of games to reflect on his performance and what he needs to do to get back to his best.

by **adamnbarrett** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:06 pm

Well, I don't think dropping Reina will do his confidence any good at all. The lad has the ability to put mistakes behind him like the FA Cup Final for example. 'Goalies can have a great game and then make one mistake and become the villain, strikers can play the worst game of their life but score the winner and become a hero' as Rush said.

But I think one of the main reasons why Reina is not on top form is because the defence infront of him is being swapped and changed each week. One week a centre back is hyypia the next week it is agger. Aurelio one week, Riise another. In training Pepe can only train with one back four infront of him. He cannot play with a back eight in training. So when the defence is rotated he is not used to the defence around him and it causes problems e.g. lack of communication, different tactics for different back fours etc.

So I think if we rotate the defence we must have one keeper for one back 4 and another keeper for another so there are no problems. If you look at Chelsea for example, they rotate their midfield and strikers but they don't rotate the goalkeeper or the defence because there is an understanding. Because our defence is being changed each week there is no understanding and it makes us more vulnerable at the back.

by **aCe'** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:22 pm

hehe....read the title and thought... HEH...HE MUST BE HAVING A GO AT RAFA......
but then realized u really want to sub reina....mmmm.... funny call imo....
I'd rather we stick to a squad rather than drop anyone who fcks up in a game or two...
Liverpool's start this season is shtty for one and only one reason.....RAFA's bad decisions . dont blame reina...and carragher and gerrard and bellamy( him u can blame just a bit) ! Rafa's the manager and it seems obvious that he made some bad decisions in each and every game we ended up losing... and dont give me the WHAT ABT THE GAMES WE WON....FFS ! we'r liverpool....we'r expected to win games.....not lose 3 games we shud hav won....an out-of-form chelsea with 10 men... shud hav won that one !

by **aCe'** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:48 pm

Oh and....i think the only reason Rafa has been making soo many changes to the side...week in week out....is because he tries to pick the best team with regard to wht our opposition will be offering....i know.... every team in the world does that....bat Rafa is clearly overdoin it this season....hear me out.
Wen playing a side like Bolton...we dont need to be putting out the defenders,midfielders and strikers who would be most effective against em.... no big clubs do that.....if they have a superstar who can change the game and he's a right winger....then maybe u'd consider playing ur 2nd choice leftback because he defends better than ur 1st choice.... but rafa seems to want to change everything he can in every game ! doesnt work that way....and is not working now !
I think.....pick a core for ur team....and stick to em....only sub for special cases...if u need very specific players in specific positions...
One more thing....wats with gerrard playing on the lest wing....bring on Gonzales and give him a run for cryin out loud ! Garcia did a great job when played there...but he doesnt defend as well as a leftmidfielder should. The way i see it... Gerrard and Alonso when playin weak sides.... with Gonzales and maybe Pennant on the sides....Riise and Finnan in fullback....Agger and Carragher in central defence....Kuyt and Crouch forward for now ! If we are playing harder opposition....or tricky away fixtures or anythin where sissoko is needed ( thas almost 2 in every 3 games), we drop pennant and Gerrard is back to the right side..
Thing is....gerrard when in a central role changes our style of play completely. We play more passes, get the wongers moving better....and get more scoring chances..... our wingers get sooo many more options with gerrard playing alongside alonso.....thing is....we need to figure out how to make playing those two work out defensively ! Has alot to do with one of the fullbacks understanding th game better and one of the center backs goin a step or two forward to apply pressure when forwards come deeper to recieve....mmmmm..... sorry i wrote so much....out of topic too...

by **red37** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 11:56 pm

reina dropped? .......myth BUSTED!

defence tighter? .......myth confirmed

by **red37** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:21 am

aCe' wrote:Thing is....gerrard when in a central role changes our style of play completely. We play more passes, get the wongers moving better....and get more scoring chances..... our wingers get sooo many more options with gerrard playing alongside alonso.

true, to an extent. and against an opposition we are controlling.

but the problem comes where we are chasing a game. gerrard empties the midfield leaving acres of room should the attack fail, leaving the counter-attack at least easier to incur...at the end of the day its horses for courses though. and on one day anything can happen. versitility though is a friend worth courting.

for me its about the 'spine' and whether your home or away, that has to be set up correctly. in relation to that, id like to see a central backbone put together this way. of course its a generalisation, but the core for me should be...

home. RB carragher agger LB
RW gerrard alonso LW

away. RB carragher hyypia LB
gerrard sissoko alonso LW

its never of course as easy as that, dependant on the game involved and the tactics. but i dont think there would be too much wrong with that foundation. at the very least its balanced enough in either scenario...also, this has nothing to do with reina either, although at least seeing the same ugly faces infront of him doing their own work to the level they are supposed to be aspiring to, wouldnt exactly do any harm to the fella neither.

get the balance right, add a sprinkle of the old magic dust and have confidence...now that isnt rotation for the sake of it, its simplicity personified. and lets face it, who the hell cares who does what where really, as long as at the end of the season it just, works to perfection....

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 1:25 am

red37 wrote:
aCe' wrote:Thing is....gerrard when in a central role changes our style of play completely. We play more passes, get the wongers moving better....and get more scoring chances..... our wingers get sooo many more options with gerrard playing alongside alonso.

true, to an extent. and against an opposition we are controlling.

but the problem comes where we are chasing a game. gerrard empties the midfield leaving acres of room should the attack fail, leaving the counter-attack at least easier to incur...at the end of the day its horses for courses though. and on one day anything can happen. versitility though is a friend worth courting.

for me its about the 'spine' and whether your home or away, that has to be set up correctly. in relation to that, id like to see a central backbone put together this way. of course its a generalisation, but the core for me should be...

home. RB carragher agger LB
RW gerrard alonso LW

away. RB carragher hyypia LB
gerrard sissoko alonso LW

its never of course as easy as that, dependant on the game involved and the tactics. but i dont think there would be too much wrong with that foundation. at the very least its balanced enough in either scenario...also, this has nothing to do with reina either, although at least seeing the same ugly faces infront of him doing their own work to the level they are supposed to be aspiring to, wouldnt exactly do any harm to the fella neither.

get the balance right, add a sprinkle of the old magic dust and have confidence...now that isnt rotation for the sake of it, its simplicity personified. and lets face it, who the hell cares who does what where really, as long as at the end of the season it just, works to perfection....

To be fair mate, that's generally the spine Rafa has been playing.

Gerrard has appeared on the left a couple of times, purely because Xabi and Momo are a far better partnership than Stevie-Momo/Xabi. They compliment each other, and we are a much harder team to break down with those two in the middle.

The fact that Stevie drifts all over the field makes his starting position even less of an issue for me, as he hardly spends any time on the left.

The idea behind it, I am sure, is that as Gerrard drifts inside, he's far better placed to tonk one in on his favoured foot, as opposed to coming in from the right.
If our captain applied himself, he'd have smashed about 5 goals in by now, but he'd rather sulk, go through the motions, and unbalance the side than "take one for the team".

The lad is undoubtably good enough to play there, and has the ability to play a Pires-type role, but even more effectively.

But he's too mardy. He's Steven Gerrard, and he won't play where he doesn't want to.
In short - he's acting like a spoilt brat.

The most likely reason Gonzalez didn't play against Bolton is that he'd get absolutely trashed by their filthy tackles and rough approach. Pennant is no stranger to the rough and tumble of the Bolton's of this World, so I honestly believe the team Rafa played was the best for the job.

But no matter how good your team, with no protection from the ref, and a shocking decision from his assistant, you're always going to struggle at the Reebok.

Up until Andi's abomination, we were controlling the game and coping with their inferiority-complex-induced tackles.

Once you go behind at that doss-hole, you're virtually knackered, as 10 men stay behind the ball, and their fouling of players on the breakaway is shocking. How they didn't get more bookings and at least 1 sending off is laughable.

Rafa, for all his brilliance, cannot legislate for that kind of game.

The team he played had the beating of Bolton.

It just couldn't beat the linesman.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:11 am

Bit hard on Gerrard mate. I think one of the problems he had playing in the centre against Gala was he was trying too hard to show how good he is in that role, and was too eager ,and kept getting out of position.

As for playing on the left, yes he can do it, but half of Gerrards game is crossing and killer balls and theres no way he can do those from the left. I think he showed that when he hit the side netting against Bolton, if he had been in the same position on the right he would have put in a low cross to our waiting forwards.

As for Bolton, as long as referees let them get away with the intimidation and overphysical challenges we are going to find it difficult there. There is no doubt in my mind that the team Rafa put out was good enough to win, and that we were outplaying them till the linesman stepped in. My critisism is our reaction to going a goal down. Instead of fighting for every ball we just seemed to accept it wasnt going to be our day, and maybe Gerrards attitude played a part in that?

by **66-1112520797** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:34 am

My general observations on Reina are ........... Last season he came in to the team and kept many a clean sheets due to the defence in front of him. That bred confidence in him and the defence, but there were times when Reina would come for the ball and not make it, or make a slightly eccentric save. But I brushed it off as him being new and didnt really worry too much as our defence were solid.

This season I've managed to see all the league games so far, and with our defence looking more vulnrable than it was last season. Its IMO exposed Reina more and has shown us his weakness's, I think his decision making can be quite erratic at times, and more obviously his communication with the back four. At times I wonder if he's talking Spanish, Hyypia's talking Finnish, Aurelio Portuguese, Finnan Galic and Cara Scouse

. There looks uncertainty amongst them, even the simple things are made to look hardwork. Like Finnan sheparding the ball back, Reina coming off his line to collect but the ball but hesitates, then it ends up with Finnan hitting row Z because of this simple lack of communication.
There is no doubt the defence havent been upto there best, but this has just shown Reina still has a lot to do if hes going to become a top quality keeper. He hasnt looked like the commanding figure in his box this year, and to me he looks like he's lost a bit of confidence.

By the way I dont think Reina had much to do against Bolton, and IMO he WASNT at fault for either of there goals. Incidently though I do recall Rafa saying he's given Reina 10 games to find his form this year ?
But then again he said if his strikers hit form they'd stay in the team, 'Oh Peter Crouch I hear you' and he hasnt followed through with that so ........

by **crazyhorse** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:40 am

I was worried when we signed Reina, and feel that his ability was overestimated last season because of the great year Carra and Sami had.

The back four is not as solid this year, and Reina is getting found out a bit. He is a good goalkeeper, but not a great one. I would stick with him as he is a reasonable shot stopper and look to go shopping in the transfer window (if we can offload Dudek).

The problem at the moment is that there is no real competition for him at the club.. we have not really had a consistantly first class goalkeeper since Bruce Grobelaar and that seems to co incide with our failure to win the title.

If money were no object I would like to see us go after someone like Robinson; I am not saying Reina should be replaced but at the moment he is under no pressure and this is needed in the same way that the rest of the squad have it.

by **drummerphil** » Tue Oct 03, 2006 2:46 am

if your goalie needs a kick up the backside then drop him,give Dudek another chance i say.......he deserves it.

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