Liverpool FC Forum

by **greenred** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:58 pm

Houlliers process of team selection is a mystery to all us mere mortals. The day I succesfully predict a liverpool eleven in their correct positions is the day I join the Gods.Maybe then Ill get to know what goes on inside the minds of houllier and stu the red

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:07 pm

I don't rate Finnan and Carragher as pivotal, Baros is a good young player. Owen, Hamann and Henchoz are very important to us but Owen was available, I believe, for most of the early games of the season and we lost quite a few even with him in the side. We'll write of Hamann, Carragher, Baros and Henchoz as longer injuries - Owen and Hamann crucial

Defeats key players played in

Gerrard - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton, Portsmouth, Man Utd, Southampton (6/6)

Hyypia - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton, Portsmouth, Man Utd, Southampton (6/6)

Diouf - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton, Portsmouth, Man Utd, Southampton (6/6)

Dudek - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton, Portsmouth, Man Utd (5/6)

Kewell - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton, Portsmouth, Man Utd (5/6)

Owen - Chelsea, Arsenal, Charlton (3/6)

Hamann played against Southampton (1/6), Henchoz against Chelsea and Portsmouth (2/6)

So our key 8 players weren't all absent from those defeats. Owen missed half of them but only Hamann and Henchoz missed more.

Ok firstly the defeat on the first day against Chelsea we were missing Hamann and Gerrard. Two first choice central midfielders. THE most important part of any good side. One world class, the other top class and producing the form of his career. Also Henchoz didn't play the whole game due to injury.

Diouf i don't count as a key player.

Finnan and Carragher aren't pivitol you say? I completely disagree. Both are first choice without question. Carragher is EXCELLENT defensively, far better than Riise. Finnan is a better alround player than Riise and offers balance and width from the right side.

Now to say they aren't pivitol as individual players ok, maybe fair enough, but thats half of our back 4. Also when they are both out, we don't have a recognised right back. Riise would have come into the side for Finnan and Carragher would have swaped sides if it had just been Finnan out. Or Riise would have come in for Carragher if it had just been him injured. But the fact they were both out at once has practically crippled a very strong defence. Hyypia always gets left exposed by Riise's lack of defensive capability and its no coincidence he always looks twice the centre half when playing next to Vignal or Carragher.

Also the lack of consistency in selection... don't you think this has played a part? The treble seasons success was build on not changing the back four. It was the same for every match. I honestly think he'd like to do this now... but the injuries to Henchoz, Finnan and Carragher have prevented this.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 5:08 pm

sorry if the post above doesn't make sense am watching sooty.

by **Wendi Richter** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:28 pm

Well seems like most players will be back over the next month so I spose we will find out the impact injuries have had. I expect we will do much better. Its all hypothetical what ifs anyway regarding games already gone.

Nevertheless, we are not good enough even at full strength and its going to take more than Cisse to make us so. This is what worries me.

by **JBG** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:09 pm

Good man Stu: keep the arguements to the football!

I don't disagree with you when you say that Finnan and Carragher are losses. However, while they will improve us slightly when they come back, they won't make a massive difference.

Carragher, as you say, is a very good full back defensively. However, even in his defensive duties last year he wasn't at his best. For example, Thierry Henry absolutely skinned him (and Henchoz) alive in the home game at Anfield in January 2003. His return will be a boost, but a very small one.

Personally, being a Republic of Ireland fan, I'm not entirely convinced by Steve Finnan. I still rate Steve Carr as the better player, and I was (slightly) surprised when Finnan won a place in the Premiership team of the year. However, if he works hard and luck goes his way, he should make the step up to the next level.

My point is that he is only here since the summer and has had two spells out already with injury. He hasn't settled fully into the team and we have yet to see what he is capable of. He probably will prove to be an important player for us yet, but at the moment he hasn't laid down a marker which says that he's indispensable.

I have to disagree with you when you (and others) call Steven Gerrard "world class". Its an over used term. This is not a dig at ya Stu, its just that I personally believe that Stevie can be a lot better than he is. Gerrard is a very good player who probably will go on to become world class, but he has a lot of improving to do yet to be considered in the same breath as Zidanne, Figo, Nedved, Ballack etc.

Hamman is a very, very good defensive midfielder. His performances for Germany in 2002 were superb.

by **115-1073096938** » Tue Jan 13, 2004 9:31 pm

i'll reply to this when i come back from me 6 a side game... wish me luck.

i have a good little reply lined up... hopefully i won't forget it

Btw i don't count the overrated Ballack as world class... i'll explain when i'm back.. i really have to go taraa :d

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 12:23 am

won 2-0 and i scored the first before bring replaced at half tmie due to being unfit and still suffering from side effects of quinzy two months ago.

Am just gonna list them coz me hands are cold an i can't be arsed with an essay.

Finnan and Carragher imo will offer greater defensive quality on the flanks, both will offer better distribution from the back as neither are sloppy in possession. Finnan also offers something going forward I.E. the overlap and crosses into the box.

The arguement of Carragher not being at his best last season i disagree. Defensively the only teams that caused him problems were Arsenal to be honest, also he was with Traore, not Hyypia or Henchoz. And lets be honest, Henry's ripped just about everyone, so to state that as an example is unfair. Cannavaro's probably the worlds best, he couldn't get near him. Going forward he was slated, but he's there to defend and offer leadership, local pride and passion. Which he does more than anyone including Steven Gerrard.

As for Finnan, well Carr... yeah i'd agree he's a better player, but Finnan seems to have unfulfilled potential. He seems to get better every game. Finnan is sound defensively and good going foward, while he lacks Carr's drive and leadership i think technically he is superb. I remember saying to my mate at the spurs game how much he reminds me of Rob Jones, can use both feet and has a fantastic first touch and i am not exagerating.

At the moment you're right he's not "laid down the marker" and proven undoubted class like Babbel did. But i believe a player becomes indispensible when they are a good player and there backup is injured aswell. Is that not a fair statement? Imagine having Owen and no Baros to back him up.... where would we be then?

Right the fun bit. Steven Gerrard. No question in my mind he has world class ability as does Rio Ferdinand and Michael Owen. In the premier league i would say Gerrard, Owen, RvN, Ferdinand, Vieira and Henry are the only players with genuine world class ability.

Of those players only Henry, Vieira and van Nistlerooy show it every week.

Players don't usually get the consistency till about 25-26. They usually stop developing as a player at around 22-23.

It isn't until they become experienced in life and as adults they gain the self confidencce and know how of how to get the best out of yourself every week. An example of what i'm talking about. A 12 year old gets pushed in a game of football, Michael Owen gets pushed in a game of football... who's more likely to react to a blatent push? I know these are extremes but really it does apply at all levels. You find a 17 year old scally who's just gone into open age or an experienced 30 year old, same applies.

Also i don't count Ballack or Scholes as world class as neither are athletic enough or have the leadership.

I also believe the term world class is thown about to much on players like Hamann, Scholes, Campbell etc.

I put players into catorgarys (sp). I'll number them, u'll see why in a moment.

6. Elite - Zidane, Vieira, Cannavaro

5. World class - Owen, Gerrard, Ferdinand

4. Top class - Kewell, Pires, Hamann

3. Quality players - Finnan, Carr, Beattie, Neville, Carragher

2. Good players - Murphy, Baros, Kanu, Fortune

1. Squad players - Smicer, Diouf, Forlan

etc etc etc

Now i'm not saying these players are equal within the catorgary and some are between i would say but thats the general gist of it.

For me the United team that won "that treble" was immense. I'll show you what i mean. I've numbered the catorgarys as a points system... ok it doesn't always work like this but it helps me get my point across.

Schmeichel - 6

Neville - 3
Irwin - 2.5 (can't decide, very solid tho)
Johnsen - 3
Stam - 5

Beckham - 5
Giggs - 5
Keane - 6
Scholes - 4

Yorke - 4
Cole - 3

Total - 46.5

A very strong team. Obvious strong point the over powering midfield which could simply dominate EVERY game.

Todays Liverpool team.

Dudek - 3.5 (falling out of the top class now i think, Kirks i would say 3)

Finnan - 3
Hyypia - 4
Henchoz - 3
Carragher - 3

Murphy - 2
Gerrard - 4.5 (on the way there)
Hamann - 4
Kewell - 4

Owen - 5
Baros - 2 (the old Heskey would have got 3.5 but his last two years changed my opinion, if he can keep recent form up then he may go back up in my estimation)

Total - 38. about 2-3 players behind. Anelka - 4, Malbranque 3 and Boumsong 4 maybe would give our side an extra 4 points taking us to 42 which would be about the strength of most of the better sides in europe.

If i done all the sides you'd see if probably works out about right.

Now don't get me wrong i'm not say this is the be all and end all and its 100% correct but i honestly believe there is alot of sense to what i'm saying, i would expect arsenal, man utd and chelsea to have around 40-41 points and maybe the best side in europe to have about 42-43 points.

Again sorry if i prattled on but i'm watching pretty woman and find Julia Roberts attrative so its hard to concentrate.

by **Owzat** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 2:29 pm

stu_the_red wrote:Ok firstly the defeat on the first day against Chelsea we were missing Hamann and Gerrard. Two first choice central midfielders. THE most important part of any good side. One world class, the other top class and producing the form of his career. Also Henchoz didn't play the whole game due to injury.

Diouf i don't count as a key player.

Finnan and Carragher aren't pivitol you say? I completely disagree. Both are first choice without question. Carragher is EXCELLENT defensively, far better than Riise. Finnan is a better alround player than Riise and offers balance and width from the right side.

Now to say they aren't pivitol as individual players ok, maybe fair enough, but thats half of our back 4. Also when they are both out, we don't have a recognised right back. Riise would have come into the side for Finnan and Carragher would have swaped sides if it had just been Finnan out. Or Riise would have come in for Carragher if it had just been him injured. But the fact they were both out at once has practically crippled a very strong defence. Hyypia always gets left exposed by Riise's lack of defensive capability and its no coincidence he always looks twice the centre half when playing next to Vignal or Carragher.

Also the lack of consistency in selection... don't you think this has played a part? The treble seasons success was build on not changing the back four. It was the same for every match. I honestly think he'd like to do this now... but the injuries to Henchoz, Finnan and Carragher have prevented this.

Oops, looks like Gerrard did miss the Chelski game. Even so, we shouldn't be dependent on two midfield players. Henchoz went off in about the 70th minute.

Diouf is arguable as to being a "key player". I think few people would agree on the best starting XI, I intend to find out how much we all agree on this

Finnan and Carragher are good players but not pivotal. Carragher is a little slow, but my point is neither is irreplacible. While we might miss both of them, the absence of Hamann, Henchoz, Hyypia, Gerrard and Owen severely damage the team. I couldn't say for sure which I'd rather see in the XI, some people would say both (Carragher at LB, Finnan at RB). At the end of the day, you have to compare players and some are more influential than others - I don't think we have XI "pivotal" players

I think Biscan has been disruptive to the back four and Houllier needs to decide on the best quartet and stick with them. I think Riise is not a good enough defensive full back and would be best suited to wing back in a 3-5-2/5-3-2. Traore has not been the best at left back and I feel these things make the defence weaker. I still don't agree that either full back is "pivotal" though, we'll have to agree to disagree on that

Consistency of selection is down to the awful inadequacy of our reserves, as signed by Houllier. We can't consistently pick the same XI, not just because of injuries, but because too many players aren't good enough to hold down a first team place.

by **greenred** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:00 pm

Whats with that points system stu? You have finnan and carragher down as better defenders than dennis irwin,surely not?That guy is the most consistent full back in premiership history.Not flashy but like phil neal always did his job in a professional manner. Great at free kicks and penalties also.I would take him over finnan and carragher any day.You also overrated stam by a mile,cumbersome,slow and dispensible(judging by how quickly fergie let him go)Our own hypia was far more effective in his first couple of years, which was the length of time stam played in england.Also paul scholes was more important to manure in 1999 than beckham,he deserves equal points at least.

Interesting idea though.

by **jonnymac1979** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:13 pm

Well put Stu. I like the points idea too. Very interesting argument.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:33 pm

Whats with that points system stu? You have finnan and carragher down as better defenders than dennis irwin,surely not?That guy is the most consistent full back in premiership history.Not flashy but like phil neal always did his job in a professional manner. Great at free kicks and penalties also.I would take him over finnan and carragher any day.You also overrated stam by a mile,cumbersome,slow and dispensible(judging by how quickly fergie let him go)Our own hypia was far more effective in his first couple of years, which was the length of time stam played in england.Also paul scholes was more important to manure in 1999 than beckham,he deserves equal points at least.

Interesting idea though.

Firstly Dennis Irwin was coming to end of his career. He probably was better than Finns and Carra at his best, but i didn't really see him at his best. I'm judging off what i saw then and what i see now.

Completely disagree about Stam. He certainly wasn't slow, yes he took his time to settle but i firmly believe he was one of the worlds best at the time and if i remember rightly Ferguson let him go due to a rift. Not down to the players ability. I'd have him at Liverpool even now. He was the one who held United defence together. They had 5 world class players and he was one of them. Thats why they were so strong.

Scholes... i disagree again. Beckham was and still is world class. Something Scholes can and will never be. He lacks the athlesism, physique and leadership to be a true world class player.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 4:52 pm

Owzat you keep saying they aren't pivitol players mate.

But they clearly are. If you replace a full back with a centre half then you lose an awful lot of your teams game.

If say... Vignal come in for Finnan and Carragher moved to the right then i'd agree with what you are saying. Because you still have cover available. But if your first choice right back is injured, your second choice is injured and your third is either a kid or a player playing out of position then either the first or second choice player becomes a "pivitol" and important player because if they both go missing if f##ks the team up completely.

Of that you can't argue.

In order of ability this is how i see the Liverpool team:

Owen
Gerrard
Kewell
Hamann
Hyypia
Heskey
Carragher/Finnan
Henchoz
Dudek
Kirkland
Murphy
Baros/Smicer/Riise/Vignal
Traore
Biscan

In order of importance to the style and results.

Hamann
Hyypia
Owen
Carragher
Gerrard
Kirkland/Dudek
Finnan
Kewell
Henchoz
Murphy
Baros/Heskey (Heskey down here due to lacking consistency)
etc etc

by **DAV** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:01 pm

i agree with everything u said STU for once. except the bit about heskeybeing one of our key players.

by **115-1073096938** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:04 pm

Dave if you look again mate i said he was probably one of the least important with Baros. What i said was he has the ability when at his best to be one of our best players which he proved during the treble season. That season he was our most important player.

Backed up by the fact that the only home games we lost where the only ones he didn't start.

by **JBG** » Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:06 pm

Nice idea Stu.

I disagree about Scholes though.

There was an interview in a French newspaper in which Zidanne and Figo were interviewed in a joint article. The journalist asked them who they thought was the best in Europe. Both said Scholes.

Athleticism and leadership aren't everything. Scholes has the best technique of any player (including Pires and on a level with Di Canio maybe) in the Premiership, and in some ways he's unparalleled in Europe. He is the closest thing in modern football to Johan Cryuff. His first touch is without comparison.

Admitedly he has never quite hit the same heights for England.

However, we're not going to fall out over a Manure player, are we Stu?

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