Liverpool FC Forum

by **RED BEERGOGGLES** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:49 pm

@Boxscarf Quote
If you don't like it, don't read my posts, simple. In fact I'm pretty sure there's an ignore feature on this forum, why not test it? I don't think I've read too many posts of yours, so I won't be offended if you whack me on ignore, in fact I'd encourage it.[/quote]

Now now dear! Lets attempt to keep those perfectly manicured nails from gouging anyone's eyes out eh ?

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:01 pm

red till i die!! » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:11 pm wrote:
andy_g » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:36 pm wrote:listen D_C, we know your views on andy carroll. we knew them about 500 of your posts ago back when you were called something else, and in all the posts since then you've not added a single worthwhile argument to your views. your views are fine, by the way, you can have them. we all know that andy carroll hasn't delivered what we needed and wanted, at least not so far. and no, the signs don't look good either. but the important point you seem to be missing is that he's not the sole reason for our plight and despite his limitations he's one of the few that actually seems to be trying.

so now, could you do us all a favour and shut the f*ck up with your endless, pointless and boring drivel that only serves to satisfy your need to twist the knife? every time you feel the need to slag him off a little bit more try and think of something more constructive to do, will you?

+1

+2

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:04 pm

Boxscarf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:38 pm wrote:Andy Carroll has allegedly verbally abused our manager after being substituted - if this is indeed the case and Andy has dared to even question a managers decision then he needs to be dealt with accordingly. In fact If I was to tell my manager at work to "f*ck off", I'd be taken into a disciplinary and sacked. Who on Earth does Andy Carroll think he is? He has no right to disrespect his manager. Andy never looked like scoring against Newcastle (though he played well) and was rightly replaced. If Andy cannot handle being substituted without resorting to abusing the manager then he needs to leave this club and perhaps head over to Manchester City where disrespecting the manager is actively encouraged by the manager, himself, no less.

Im sure KK has had worse things said to him. Hes a big boy and not as sensitive as you might imagine.
Im certain he will understand Carrolls outburst and would probably say he is pleased that Carroll was upset at coming off. Carroll will apologise for being childish and it will be forgotten.
Nothing to see here. Move on

by **RedAnt** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:09 pm

Thommo's perm » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:04 pm wrote:
Boxscarf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:38 pm wrote:Andy Carroll has allegedly verbally abused our manager after being substituted - if this is indeed the case and Andy has dared to even question a managers decision then he needs to be dealt with accordingly. In fact If I was to tell my manager at work to "f*ck off", I'd be taken into a disciplinary and sacked. Who on Earth does Andy Carroll think he is? He has no right to disrespect his manager. Andy never looked like scoring against Newcastle (though he played well) and was rightly replaced. If Andy cannot handle being substituted without resorting to abusing the manager then he needs to leave this club and perhaps head over to Manchester City where disrespecting the manager is actively encouraged by the manager, himself, no less.

Im sure KK has had worse things said to him. Hes a big boy and not as sensitive as you might imagine.
Im certain he will understand Carrolls outburst and would probably say he is pleased that Carroll was upset at coming off. Carroll will apologise for being childish and it will be forgotten.
Nothing to see here. Move on

Well said that man.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:47 pm

Boxscarf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:56 pm wrote:
ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Mon Apr 02, 2012 3:27 pm wrote:
plenty of our players down the years have had bust up`s with managers.
roger hunt threw his shirt at shankly and the dug out when he was taken off once and tommy smith when he found out he wasnt in the starting XI at highbury stormed out of the ground and made his own way home, keegan threw his shirt away after being sent off in the charity shield and was banned 11 games, st john and shankly had a huge bust up in the tunnel at newcastle......it happens all the time and at every club.
i was actually glad that at least someone showed that they were pi$$ed off with the situation.

So because a few of our past players have disrespected their managers in the past that makes it acceptable for Andy Carroll to do so? Sorry I disagree, I believe that you should always be professional, no matter what line of work you're in. People should feel free to disagree with their managers decisions, that's fine, but to tell a manager who constantly defends you when you aren't delivering to "f*ck off"? If I was Kenny and I'm still manager next season, I'd sell Carroll. Kenny has put his neck on the chopping block for Carroll time after time this season and last season when he signed and Andy has not repaid the faith that Kenny has shown in him. Kenny even defended Carroll afterwards in the post-match interview. If that was me, I wouldn't have answered any question about Carroll.

I know what it's like to be substituted and left on the bench, from the age of 14 to 15 I played Sunday League football and was constantly overlooked for more physical and taller lads despite the fact I was smaller, more nimble than they were and was far more composed with the ball at my feet. I spent nearly a year either on the bench making cameo appearances in the last ten minutes when our team was 10-0 down, or I was often taken off. I would often get left out of the team altogether and told not to bother attending match day. I remember making an appearance at half-time in our 7th or 8th from last league match of the season and I set up two goals which saw us lose 3-2, they scored in last ten minutes. I won Man of the Match from my manager and he started to take an interest in me, but by then it was too late, I had already decided not to renew my membership with the club and subsequently never played for another Sunday League side again, warming the bench wasn't for me and so I don't blame Andy for feeling angry, I hated being left out, I just wanted to play football and I hated being taken off especially when I knew I was making a contribution on the football pitch, but never once was I abusive, I simply accepted the managerial decision of the manager and whilst I really wanted to tell him to stick his football club up his a*se, I was brought up to show respect to people and walk away from any confrontation. Andy should behave in the same way, he's a professional footballer, who is employed to play for the club and whilst I understand his frustration, he has no right to behave the way he did or become abusive towards his manager. Just because Keegan did something similar to Shankly or Hunt doesn't make it any more right that Andy should behave that way. This club has had enough negative publicity this season with Luis Suarez's comments to Patrice Evra, we don't need anymore ammunition given to the media, who are already coming out with "Still King Kenny?", "Kenny's lost the dressing room" etc, all because of Andy and Pepe's temper tantrums.

oh come off it mate, this is football, players have blazing rows with managers all the time, you cant get more of a gentleman than bobby robson but in his early days as ipswich manager even he had a punch up with one of his players at half time, the two of them were throwing shots and combinations like they were going out of fashion, it was like the first round of hagler v hearns.
it`s an emotional game, tempers flare, dalglish is not soft, he`ll understand that the newcastle fans were on carrolls back all game winding him up.
carroll will apologise and that will be the end of it.

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:08 am

Boxscarf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:38 pm wrote:Andy Carroll has allegedly verbally abused our manager after being substituted - if this is indeed the case and Andy has dared to even question a managers decision then he needs to be dealt with accordingly. In fact If I was to tell my manager at work to "f*ck off", I'd be taken into a disciplinary and sacked. Who on Earth does Andy Carroll think he is? He has no right to disrespect his manager. Andy never looked like scoring against Newcastle (though he played well) and was rightly replaced. If Andy cannot handle being substituted without resorting to abusing the manager then he needs to leave this club and perhaps head over to Manchester City where disrespecting the manager is actively encouraged by the manager, himself, no less.

I disagree with this just as I disagreed with Kenny's decision to pull him off against Newcastle.

Let's put your post into perspective first, Andy returns to his boy hood club and is chastised ALL game for being a greedy bar.stard by his once supportive fellow Geordies. He was pumped up on an emotionally charged return and actually looked as though he was trying to prove a point. Okay, falling over after rounding the keeper may suggest otherwise but it could have been easier for him to hide during that match, and hide he didn't. Steven Gerrard should have taken note of the effort Carroll put in because he stunk the place out with his nonchalant body language at times.

Now, tactically Kenny's subbing of Carroll could have paid off, it didn't, oh well, and in my eyes this vindicated Carroll's outburst. But, I thought it was poor man-management to sub him at a time when Carroll was jeered throughout the game and constantly under the spotlight, then cheered as he left the field. This would have annoyed me, being jeered all match against my old side while actually giving 100% for my new club while trying to shut those Geordie b@rstards up. Carroll IMO had every right to spit the dummy, what did you expect him to do, walk off with a smile on his face when we were 2-0 down against a hostile crowd that had given him stick? There were others out who were more worthy of being subbed and Carroll for all his short-comings wasn't one of them. I also believe that Kenny wouldn't have been surprised by Carroll's reaction and therefore I don't see him holding any sort of grudge towards his player because he was angry at being subbed, knowing Kenny he would have quietly appreciated the fact Carroll wasn't happy with his decision - as the fire was in his belly. He should have stayed on the pitch.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:30 am

Kenny Kan » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:08 pm wrote:
Boxscarf » Mon Apr 02, 2012 6:38 pm wrote:Andy Carroll has allegedly verbally abused our manager after being substituted - if this is indeed the case and Andy has dared to even question a managers decision then he needs to be dealt with accordingly. In fact If I was to tell my manager at work to "f*ck off", I'd be taken into a disciplinary and sacked. Who on Earth does Andy Carroll think he is? He has no right to disrespect his manager. Andy never looked like scoring against Newcastle (though he played well) and was rightly replaced. If Andy cannot handle being substituted without resorting to abusing the manager then he needs to leave this club and perhaps head over to Manchester City where disrespecting the manager is actively encouraged by the manager, himself, no less.

I disagree with this just as I disagreed with Kenny's decision to pull him off against Newcastle.

Let's put your post into perspective first, Andy returns to his boy hood club and is chastised ALL game for being a greedy bar.stard by his once supportive fellow Geordies. He was pumped up on an emotionally charged return and actually looked as though he was trying to prove a point. Okay, falling over after rounding the keeper may suggest otherwise but it could have been easier for him to hide during that match, and hide he didn't. Steven Gerrard should have taken note of the effort Carroll put in because he stunk the place out with his nonchalant body language at times.

Now, tactically Kenny's subbing of Carroll could have paid off, it didn't, oh well, and in my eyes this vindicated Carroll's outburst. But, I thought it was poor man-management to sub him at a time when Carroll was jeered throughout the game and constantly under the spotlight, then cheered as he left the field. This would have annoyed me, being jeered all match against my old side while actually giving 100% for my new club while trying to shut those Geordie b@rstards up. Carroll IMO had every right to spit the dummy, what did you expect him to do, walk off with a smile on his face when we were 2-0 down against a hostile crowd that had given him stick? There were others out who were more worthy of being subbed and Carroll for all his short-comings wasn't one of them. I also believe that Kenny wouldn't have been surprised by Carroll's reaction and therefore I don't see him holding any sort of grudge towards his player because he was angry at being subbed, knowing Kenny he would have quietly appreciated the fact Carroll wasn't happy with his decision - as the fire was in his belly. He should have stayed on the pitch.

Agreed
To be honest KKs treatment of Carroll and how he has handled the whole situation since he signed him has left me with a sour taste in my mouth.
Im sure when he looks back over the season he will think he could have done some things differently

by **D___C** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:05 am

The only actions that Carroll should resent Kenny for is signing him.

Kenny has plucked him from his home town club, the club he supports, a midtable direct long ball side that played to his limitations, where he fit right in. Paid a preposterous fee that put the spotlight on the player and led to ridicule and derision on the geordies abilities. Placed him in a club that plays a style completely alien to the side he left, and inevitably his time has been, quote "disastrous".

What Kenny did to him in signing him was unfair. I often use the comparison of putting an average student into a top school/university, its not fair on the person. The level is beyond them. Examinations exist to determine ones capablilities, so each student can find the level of school/university that matches theirs. Unfortunately we have failed to assess the capablities of players we plucked from midtable teams which matched their level, and brought to a level that was beyond them. As a consequence they are now bringing us down to the midtable level of the clubs they left.

When i criticise Carroll i'm solely criticising the lack of talent, not the person. Again i like him. His outburst was wholly understandable.. think about it, he has been dreadful for a club that expects much more that the club he left, hes at a club he never wanted to be at, and was taken off at his home town club where he was happiest, and was jeered in the process. The pain and frustration is completely logical.

Kenny has been extraordinarly good to him, defended his performances to the hilt when questioned in interviews, made up every excuse under the sun, and has played him in games where he shouldn't be anywhere near the teamsheet (for example the Spurs game in my sig that i was at). Kenny changed the club philosophy for him. It used to be you got into the teamsheet on merit, not because you feel compelled to having forked out a preposterous fee.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:25 am

D___C » Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:05 am wrote:The only actions that Carroll should resent Kenny for is signing him.

Kenny has plucked him from his home town club, the club he supports, a midtable direct long ball side that played to his limitations, where he fit right in. Paid a preposterous fee that put the spotlight on the player and led to ridicule and derision on the geordies abilities. Placed him in a club that plays a style completely alien to the side he left, and inevitably his time has been, quote "disastrous".

What Kenny did to him in signing him was unfair. I often use the comparison of putting an average student into a top school/university, its not fair on the person. The level is beyond them. Examinations exist to determine ones capablilities, so each student can find the level of school/university that matches theirs. Unfortunately we have failed to assess the capablities of players we plucked from midtable teams which matched their level, and brought to a level that was beyond them. As a consequence they are now bringing us down to the midtable level of the clubs they left.

When i criticise Carroll i'm solely criticising the lack of talent, not the person. Again i like him. His outburst was wholly understandable.. think about it, he has been dreadful for a club that expects much more that the club he left, hes at a club he never wanted to be at, and was taken off at his home town club where he was happiest, and was jeered in the process. The pain and frustration is completely logical.

Kenny has been extraordinarly good to him, defended his performances to the hilt when questioned in interviews, made up every excuse under the sun, and has played him in games where he shouldn't be anywhere near the teamsheet (for example the Spurs game in my sig that i was at). Kenny changed the club philosophy for him. It used to be you got into the teamsheet on merit, not because you feel compelled to having forked out a preposterous fee.

Shut up you boring repetative tool.

We have all heard it a thousand times now and we dont care.

by **Boxscarf** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:16 am

I overreacted yesterday with regards to Andy's petulance, I just don't see like seeing in house fighting between players and management. At a time when we need to stand firmly united to weather the storm we are immersed in, we have people telling each other to "f*ck off", it's just not going to help matters. Andy has every right to feel angry and frustrated, he isn't showing the kind of form that made people stand up and take notice of him at Newcastle. He's performing well, he just isn't doing what he was brought in to do and that's scoring goals, the same criticism should be levelled at Luis Suarez who isn't scoring goals either.

Andy looks void of any confidence, he's struggling to find any form and he is constantly being moved and removed from the starting line up, this is no doubt disrupting his form. However players must accept that there will be times where they will be dropped and must not allow such things to get them down. I watched a few clips of Andy last night on youtube, his past matches and one match that caught my eye was the Wolves match earlier in the season, where Andy showed great link up play with the likes of Downing and Suarez, his positional play was good, he was quick on and off the ball, he put in a beautiful cross in which Suarez was unfortunate not to get on the end of and he hit the post. This has been Andy all season, he puts in good shifts, dropping deep to get the ball and then play through to Suarez or diagonally up pitch to the wingers, but ultimately people will look past this and say "he hasn't scored many goals", "he isn't worth £35m" etc.

Andy had a chance to really start changing people's perception of him against Newcastle, I'll never understand why he went down, what he was trying to achieve by going down? All he had to do was slot the ball home with his left peg and we would have gone 1-0. That would have given everyone a major confidence boost and would have encouraged us to carry on playing like we did prior to Papiss Cisse's first goal.

by **Octsky** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:27 am

can someone pls explain to me why after rounding the Newcastle keeper with the goal open, when the score is 0-0, he decided to dive/ trip over himself?
till now i cant find any logical answer.

by **Boxscarf** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:30 am

Octsky » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:27 am wrote:can someone pls explain to me why after rounding the Newcastle keeper with the goal open, when the score is 0-0, he decided to dive/ trip over himself?
till now i cant find any logical answer.

My guess is he didn't believe he could score the goal and went down to try and get a penalty, and get Tim Krul sent off. Dalglish defended Carroll saying the momentum of his run brought him down, well that's cobblers, he knew exactly what he was doing. There's somethings you can defend, but for that you just cannot say anything, but remain absolutely speechless.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:16 am

Octsky » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:27 am wrote:can someone pls explain to me why after rounding the Newcastle keeper with the goal open, when the score is 0-0, he decided to dive/ trip over himself?
till now i cant find any logical answer.

Its quite clear by now that we can see that Carroll is quite an immature individual.
He was a big fish in a little pond and idolised at Newcastle. The constant questions about hias behaviour off the field while he was there tell us that he pretty much enjoyed a carefree existance where he could get in all types of scrapes and would come up smiling and admired by the geordies who loved his " I dont give a fu'ck" local lad attitude.
Unfortunately he has come to a place where stuff like that, and more importantly an attitude like that is totally unacceptable. He has been told, in no uncertain terms what is expected of him and Im sure, as with any young fun loving lad, he hasnt liked it. Add on to this the constant obsession with his price tag and its no wonder he has struggled to make an impact. Being in and out of the team hasnt helped either and Im sure he will want to get this season out the way asap. I wouldnt be surprised if he isnt homesick as well as he has been born and brought up in the North East and known nothing different. Its a big cultutre shock to come here and I think its taken its toll on him.
Get the pony tail off and lets start again Andy. You can do it if you really try.

by **Boxscarf** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:32 am

I think the club will look to offload Andy Carroll in the summer. He's been here around 15 months now and his goalscoring record is abysmal for us. He looks like a square peg trying to be forced into a round hole and it's just not working and I am unsure if it will ever work. He's performed well and has linked up well with Gerrard and Suarez, but he just doesn't seem to have that killer instinct in front of goal for us and it's cost us big time this season. We just cannot afford another season like the last three that we've had in the League, it's unacceptable to be where we are because of the array of players we have at the club. I'm not saying we're a top four side, I don't believe at present we are, but we are a damn sight better than the 8th place we currently find ourselves in. If we finish 8th this season, that's a 7th, 6th and 8th place finishes in the last three seasons, just not good enough.

This season we've played some very encouraging football, but we've been wasteful in front of goal. If selling Carroll means we are able to bring in a striker who will score us 20+ goals a season then I don't care if we sell Carroll for as little as £6m. As much as I like Andy's ability (I've always been a fan of target men) I am not sure he is the right fit for our club as much as I want him to succeed, I want this club to succeed more and I am unsure that a partnership of Suarez and Carroll will ever bring about the goals that we need. Id' be inclined to give Adam, Downing and Henderson another season to see what they can do, with Henderson playing a majority of his matches in center midfield, not on the wing, but in truth it might just be that Downing and Henderson are the only players who are really going to show any real quality for us. I don't for a second believe Adam has what it takes to succeed at a club like ours, he's just average in everything he does, he can't even dispatch a freekick or a corner properly.

by **ycsatbjywtbiastkamb** » Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:00 pm

Octsky » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:27 am wrote:can someone pls explain to me why after rounding the Newcastle keeper with the goal open, when the score is 0-0, he decided to dive/ trip over himself?
till now i cant find any logical answer.

if he was coming in from the opposite flank i think he would have chipped the ball over the keeper with his left foot, or at least tried to, as it was the direction he was running he would have had to use either the outside of his left foot (which would have took some doing considering how far out he was and how quick he was running) or his weaker right foot. the natural shot was with his right foot.
i think he saw krull sprinting out at him and in a split second he had a decision to make `take the chip on with my weaker foot or buy the pen and the keeper will probably be off`
i think he probably wanted to attempt the chip with his right because he knew if he scored it would be a great individual goal and one for the career highlight reel but he probably wasnt that confident that it would go in, i think in that split second he decided to put the team first and buy the pen.
if he was running in from the opposite flank and the shot was on his left i`m 100% convinced he would have took the shot on.
he`s not the only forward to try and milk a pen out of a onrushing keeper and he wont be the last and there are plenty of forwards who would have tried to do the same thing andy did in that situation, infact out of 10 forwards i`d say 7 would have tried to do the same as andy but they would have done it better, they would have slightly curved their run towards krull and hung a leg out to make sure there was contact even if the keeper was trying to avoid it.

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