Liverpool FC Forum

by **fivecups** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:19 pm

Poulsen for Lucas, asbolute no brainer.

Konchesky for Insua - yes I'd go for that, not as obvious IMO and I'd rather have them both give Aurelio will no doubt get injured in the very near future. I don't see why he needed to go on loan, I'm sure he wasn't making that much in wages.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:21 pm

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
In and Out wrote:Benny I know this will have you going for the old conspiracy theory against the manager and in turn depression and wrist slashing but honestly Jovo like Cole may I add does need to prove himself, like all new players.

But it is patently clear that Jovo is exactly a Rafa style player (no doubt in my mind), similar to Kuyt in that he can gallop about the pitch show a bit of aggression and generally be industrious. Yet we're waiting to see anything else from him as of yet, but I will give him the time any player deserves and likewise manager too, I sincerely hope he comes good and offers us more than Kuyt does on the right hand side. That's the problem with Rafa IMO he was never able to really sign players 'out of [his] box' so to speak.

They all need to prove themselves Bam - players and the manager himself , they all have to show they are good enough and at the very least an improvement on the players they are replacing. Going by previous performances for previous clubs at this moment in time i think

Cole and Merlies (spelling ? ) have both the ability and experience to be very good for us - cole if he stays fit and Merealis if he adjusts to prem

Jovanovic - Unsure as he played very well first couple of games but since then and since we havent been playing well as a team we have struggled so im not sure about him

Poulsen and Konchesky both IMO are not good enough to improve us but would of been good back up to a better player but not first 11 . I do hope they prove me wrong and they do show they are good enough and improve us - same with the manager i do hope he improves us but at this moment in time i dont believe they will. As for Jones i will always believe he is a waste of money and would of preferred us to promote a youngster to sit on the bench .

Just to clarify - this does not mean i want them to prove me right just so i can say "i told you so " - i want them to make me say - " i was wrong " . And all of them will get my support just like i always have done .

Benny your points are valid but you will be hard pressed to find a fan who wouldn't swap Konchesky and Poulsen for Insua and Lucas.

Although the signing of Konchesky is not a glamorous one most would agree he will be less of a liability than Insua and thus an improvement.

Well when it comes to Lucas i think the majority of people would like a replacement who is better BUT there is nothing as yet to suggest poulsen adds anything more than what Lucas does - in the games so far - this may improve but IMO it wont .

As for Insua while he wasnt the best player in the world during the majority of the season - namely the early months he was pretty solid but in the end he ended up playing too many games and the mistakes started creeping in but once again he was in no way the worst and Konchesky offers nothing more than a bit more experience than Inusa - there were prob more mistakes coming from the right side and centre of defence than from insua .

Maybe they will prove me wrong but IMO neither player will improve us .

by **TarnRed** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 10:45 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:Insua v Konchesky

How does this season’s left-back compare to last season’s?

We’ve crunched the stats and we think the results will surprise you.

Emilano Insua divides Liverpool fans. Some value his bold adventurous style while others see him as a defensive liability. Similarly, Liverpool fans have mixed feelings about Konchesky. Some think he’ll be a useful addition to the squad who will bring valuable Premier League experience, while others see his signing as evidence of a lack of ambition in the transfer market.

Konchesky’s signing didn’t excite us, but we felt sure he’d be a better left-back than Insua. However, when we compared their stats for the 2009-2010 Premier League season we found some surpising results.

Goals and Assists

Hardly the most important area for two defenders, but worth a look nevertheless. Both players scored once in the Premier League last season, with Insua weighing in with 5 assists and Konchesky contributing two.

Winner: Insua

Shooting

Insua had 24 shots last year only 2 of which were on goal, giving him a shot accuracy of 8%. Konchesky had 14 shots and 3 were on target, giving him a shot accuracy of 22%.

Winner: Konchesky

Fouls Conceded

This is an interesting one – Insua committed 48 fouls last season (1.6 per game), while Konchesky only committed 25 (0.9 per game). This is the areas we feel Insua is weakest in overall (he often fouls opponents because he’s trying to atone for a positional error) so we weren’t surprised to see Konchesky come out ahead.

Winner: Konchesky

Disciplinary Record

Both players received 5 yellow cards. Konchesky received one red card.

Winner: Insua

Passing and Crossing

Insua’s pass completion rate was 87% while Konchesky’s was 78%.

Insua attempted 102 crosses and 23 found a red shirt (23% cross success). Konchesky crossed the ball 69 times and found a team mate on 11 occassions (16% cross success).

Winner: Insua

Tackling & Interceptions

Insua attempted 169 tackles last season and 116 were successful (69% tackle success). Insua averaged 3.8 successful tackles per game.

Konchesky attempted 83 tackles and 49 were successful (59% tackling success). Konchesky averaged 1.9 successful tackles per game.

Insua averaged 2.3 interceptions per game and Konchesky averaged 1.9.

Winner: Insua

This is the same site that came up with - Lucas was equally as good as Mascherano - or tried implying he was a viable replacement. :laugh:

by **Fauxy** » Mon Sep 06, 2010 11:45 pm

Those stats are totally pointless.

Pass completeion rate, or cross completion rate in Fulham is always going to be lower than liverpool because we have better players.

Tackling and interception rate.. Konchesky could have been against tougher wingers than insua. Again its at Fulham so he has less support.

See were im going... those stats dont go into any depth and just skim across the obvious stuff. Completely pointless

The fact that Lucas had better pass completion rates last season than the likes of Fabregas + Essien says it all really

by **fivecups** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:01 am

TarnRed wrote:This is the same site that came up with - Lucas was equally as good as Mascherano - or tried implying he was a viable replacement.

Are you trying to say they made the stats up?

by **fivecups** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:17 am

Fauxy wrote:Those stats are totally pointless.

Pass completeion rate, or cross completion rate in Fulham is always going to be lower than liverpool because we have better players.

Tackling and interception rate.. Konchesky could have been against tougher wingers than insua. Again its at Fulham so he has less support.

See were im going... those stats dont go into any depth and just skim across the obvious stuff. Completely pointless

The fact that Lucas had better pass completion rates last season than the likes of Fabregas + Essien says it all really

Do you know what Fauxy, I think that someday someone on Newkit is going to declare that the score at the end of the match is totally pointless. 'Doesn't matter - it's just a meaningless stat! We were by far the better team'

Points at the end of the season 'Just a meaningless stat!'

Number times we won the league 'Just a meaningless stat!'

Where the hell does it end?

These are the numbers for the whole of last season. They are worth a look. Fulham finished 12th last season and let in more goals than Liverpool - why the hell did Insua average twice the number of successful tackles per game than Konchesky with a tackling success rate of 69% compared to 59%?

I'll say it again - stats on there own, in isolation are useless, meaningless. You will never get absolutely robust, properly analysed football stats. Taken along with what you see, your instinct, other knowledge of the situation - they can be used to 'guide' your opinion.

I hope Konchesky does well - I think he'll come in and be fairly solid, he's proven Premiership quality. He will not be an Evra, Clichy or Cole. He will not be a revelation. He'll be solid and probably marginally better than Insua.

by **In and Out** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 8:47 am

fivecups wrote:
Fauxy wrote:Those stats are totally pointless.

Pass completeion rate, or cross completion rate in Fulham is always going to be lower than liverpool because we have better players.

Tackling and interception rate.. Konchesky could have been against tougher wingers than insua. Again its at Fulham so he has less support.

See were im going... those stats dont go into any depth and just skim across the obvious stuff. Completely pointless

The fact that Lucas had better pass completion rates last season than the likes of Fabregas + Essien says it all really

Do you know what Fauxy, I think that someday someone on Newkit is going to declare that the score at the end of the match is totally pointless. 'Doesn't matter - it's just a meaningless stat! We were by far the better team'

Points at the end of the season 'Just a meaningless stat!'

Number times we won the league 'Just a meaningless stat!'

Where the hell does it end?

These are the numbers for the whole of last season. They are worth a look. Fulham finished 12th last season and let in more goals than Liverpool - why the hell did Insua average twice the number of successful tackles per game than Konchesky with a tackling success rate of 69% compared to 59%?

I'll say it again - stats on there own, in isolation are useless, meaningless. You will never get absolutely robust, properly analysed football stats. Taken along with what you see, your instinct, other knowledge of the situation - they can be used to 'guide' your opinion.

I hope Konchesky does well - I think he'll come in and be fairly solid, he's proven Premiership quality. He will not be an Evra, Clichy or Cole. He will not be a revelation. He'll be solid and probably marginally better than Insua.

It ends fivecups when the stats become meaningless.

This for example is how I'd prioritise stats:

Primary stat: Score in a match. > Primary stat: Total number of points

Secondary stat: Goals for, against, wins, losses, draws, H, A.

Every other stat more or less pails into insignificance IMO-especially those k.rappy ones Owzat would post and the one like Benny just posted.

Like I said, when you have eyeballs 90% of stats are insignificant - it just gives the number crunchers something meaningful to themselves to do i.e Owstat.

by **fivecups** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:06 am

I'm quite a big fan of the eyeball test myself - sometimes, even after a single match you can make a judegement on a player, we were talking about Gerrard 10 years ago, a while back.

But I do think carefully collected stats can be used to further inform what your eyes are telling you. For instance, most of us only watched a few matches last year that Konchesky played in, or a few highlights on MOTD. Can we really, accurately assess his overall performance last season based on those few snippets? Again, most of us probably watched pretty much every match Insua played last season, although some where undoubtedly on low quality streams. Some were probably at most of the games. But even then, unless you specifically concentrated on him during every match, can we be fully certain of his contribution to each game? Stats will help you fill in some of those gaps - if they are accurate and relatively complete. They'll not tell you about his positioning, the contribution of his team-mates, his opposition etc. but there's a reason every team in the PL use them.

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 9:33 am

Benny The Noon wrote:
SouthCoastShankly wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:
In and Out wrote:Benny I know this will have you going for the old conspiracy theory against the manager and in turn depression and wrist slashing but honestly Jovo like Cole may I add does need to prove himself, like all new players.

But it is patently clear that Jovo is exactly a Rafa style player (no doubt in my mind), similar to Kuyt in that he can gallop about the pitch show a bit of aggression and generally be industrious. Yet we're waiting to see anything else from him as of yet, but I will give him the time any player deserves and likewise manager too, I sincerely hope he comes good and offers us more than Kuyt does on the right hand side. That's the problem with Rafa IMO he was never able to really sign players 'out of [his] box' so to speak.

They all need to prove themselves Bam - players and the manager himself , they all have to show they are good enough and at the very least an improvement on the players they are replacing. Going by previous performances for previous clubs at this moment in time i think

Cole and Merlies (spelling ? ) have both the ability and experience to be very good for us - cole if he stays fit and Merealis if he adjusts to prem

Jovanovic - Unsure as he played very well first couple of games but since then and since we havent been playing well as a team we have struggled so im not sure about him

Poulsen and Konchesky both IMO are not good enough to improve us but would of been good back up to a better player but not first 11 . I do hope they prove me wrong and they do show they are good enough and improve us - same with the manager i do hope he improves us but at this moment in time i dont believe they will. As for Jones i will always believe he is a waste of money and would of preferred us to promote a youngster to sit on the bench .

Just to clarify - this does not mean i want them to prove me right just so i can say "i told you so " - i want them to make me say - " i was wrong " . And all of them will get my support just like i always have done .

Benny your points are valid but you will be hard pressed to find a fan who wouldn't swap Konchesky and Poulsen for Insua and Lucas.

Although the signing of Konchesky is not a glamorous one most would agree he will be less of a liability than Insua and thus an improvement.

Well when it comes to Lucas i think the majority of people would like a replacement who is better BUT there is nothing as yet to suggest poulsen adds anything more than what Lucas does - in the games so far - this may improve but IMO it wont .

As for Insua while he wasnt the best player in the world during the majority of the season - namely the early months he was pretty solid but in the end he ended up playing too many games and the mistakes started creeping in but once again he was in no way the worst and Konchesky offers nothing more than a bit more experience than Inusa - there were prob more mistakes coming from the right side and centre of defence than from insua .

Maybe they will prove me wrong but IMO neither player will improve us .

"a bit more"?

Vastly more experience. For me the key asset for our left back should be reliability, attacking prowess is a bonus but the ability to make simple passes and defend well is a minimum. Konchesky does not set the world alight but is solid and not considered a liability.

As for the Lucas - Poulsen argument, the key word has to be liability. Lucas has consistently been either anonymous in games or a liability. At his best he makes no mistakes and does nothing else. Nuisance value.

From what I have seen from Poulsen, he is far more dynamic and will look for a forward thinking pass. If he adds this alone he has exceeded Lucas.

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:03 am

There are a couple of people on here who are still disputing that Poulsen is a better player than lucas, this is even after seeing Lucas play 176 times or whatever it is, and seeing Poulsen play once. Incredible really.

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:09 am

Once is not enough - esp during that one game ( two in fact ) he contributed nothing more than Lucas .

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:21 am

Benny The Noon wrote:Once is not enough - esp during that one game ( two in fact ) he contributed nothing more than Lucas .

See what I mean. Once is not enough? I could have told you Poulsen was the better player after seeing him for 10 minutes. You don't need to see Torres and N'Gog for half a season to make your mind up which is the better player do you as well

by **Benny The Noon** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:24 am

We will agree to disagree to save going round in circles and see what happens during the season

by **bigmick** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 10:26 am

Benny The Noon wrote:We will agree to disagree to save going round in circles and see what happens during the season

I 100% agree that we will have to agree to disagree, infact, I couldn't agree with you more or disagree less.

by **In and Out** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 11:16 am

From what I have seen from Poulsen, he is far more dynamic and will look for a forward thinking pass. If he adds this alone he has exceeded Lucas.

Have to agree with that. Poulsen has made some forward passes and has looked to be much more dynamic in that respect, therefore he has exceeded Lucas

Not hard really though is it. FWIW Poulsen will improve the team over Lucas, I do worry about his legs though (not that there shaved, waxed, veeted or anything) but he is a bit old and the pace of the game may be his achillies heel. Even if he sits, he looked very slow on the turn to me, with more games played I hope he can turn quicker than the titanic and keep up with the pace.

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