Liverpool FC Forum

by **Avi Cohen** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:04 pm

This isn't another Rafa thread but a footballing one in general.

After watching a dismal World Cup (after the dismal 2006 World Cup) I've been thinking about our former manager's so-called (by me) anti-football approach... is it the way of the future?

If Holland, who played a formation of 6-4, can get to the World Cup final kicking everything that moved (and kicking those that didn't move until they moved), if Greece can win the 2004 Euros playing ultra defensive football, if a cautious Inter Milan can win the CL, if a Brazil team is set up to play without flair, if Portugal don't try a leg going forward, if a respected Irish football writer praises Maradona for building his team around Mascherano (a defensive midfielder who offers nothing to his team when in possession), if cultured passer like Xavi Alonso can be substituted in a WC final while Busquets stays on the pitch, then surely it is the way forward.

I've watched players over the last few years preferring to play for the free kick, throw-in or corner instead of taking a full back on. Where is their ambition, the love of the tricky play? Teams nowadays are content to pack the midfield, stop the other team playing and hope they can snatch one on the break. I heard one pundit call 4-4-2 'outmoded'. Surely this is a bad thing.

I bemoaned Rafa's rigid 4-5-1 formation but didn't every team at the WC play that? Is football changing to the uber-defensive and is Rafa ahead of the curve in that respect? I'm sure Rafa knows what a great game of football is - we all do - but has he known that those days are gone before the rest of us?

Disclaimer - I'm not flip-flopping on my Rafa judgement (I still can't stand him but he's not on his own), just wondering if his style is the way football seems to be going/falling.

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:07 pm

Three out of the 4 semi finalists and the two finalists all played with two dms and one striker supported by a deep lying midfielder plus two wider players . The theory and the set up from our ex manager seems to be popular around the world as well as successful - unfortuantley it creates a ensure you dont loose situation .

by **LFC2007** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:33 pm

So, all these great managers have adopted Rafa's modern approach to the game, therefore he is indirectly responsible for their successes - of which the most recent examples are Spain's World Cup victory and The Netherlands' progression to the final?

by **Benny The Noon** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:35 pm

LFC2007 wrote:So, all these great managers have adopted Rafa's modern approach to the game, therefore he is indirectly responsible for their successes - of which the most recent examples are Spain's World Cup victory and The Netherlands' progression to the final?

Not at all - no idea who did it first

by **bigmick** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:36 pm

by **parchpea** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 7:45 pm

I think it can be an attacking formation if you allow at least 2 from the 5 in the middle freedom to roam and push on at will. Our downfall with it was we only ever allowed 1 (Gerrard) to really join Torres on a regular basis. Any system can be turned defensive or attacking depending on the players you have in it and what you ask them to do on the park. We could play it no problem and attack with Jovanovic, Acqua, and Torres pushing on and Gerrard playing the ball about but its how brave the manager feels on the Saturday morning really. The alternative is to make it defensive and stick Kuyt, Maxi, Lucas and Mash in and keep them out of the attacking quarter of the field for 80 mins! :lookaround

by **Thommo's perm** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 8:02 pm

bigmick wrote:

by **tubby** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 9:50 pm

Bigmick doesn't take kindly to people who don't agree with him :laugh:

by **aCe'** » Mon Jul 12, 2010 10:02 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:So, all these great managers have adopted Rafa's modern approach to the game, therefore he is indirectly responsible for their successes - of which the most recent examples are Spain's World Cup victory and The Netherlands' progression to the final?

Not at all - no idea who did it first

by **Tim LFC** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 12:22 am

Benny The Noon wrote:Three out of the 4 semi finalists and the two finalists all played with two dms and one striker supported by a deep lying midfielder plus two wider players . The theory and the set up from our ex manager seems to be popular around the world as well as successful - unfortuantley it creates a ensure you dont loose situation .

That's right but as we all know draws won't win you anything. The league is completely different from the league. In the WC you don't want to loose, in the league you want to win. Sure the approach was good against big teams but smaller teams we should of really gone out there and attack, attack, attack!

by **Owzat** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 7:57 am

There is one major flaw in this 'defence' of Rafa, in a cup competition there is always room for ultra defensive football to work. However Rafa took it to the next level in playing it in the league, two DMs against sides we should have been beating.

BLA 0-0 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start, Rafa used only two subs
WLV 0-0 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start, Rafa used only one sub
LIV 1-3 AVL : Mascherano and Lucas start, Rafa used only two subs
STO 1-1 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start, Rafa used only two subs

WIG 1-0 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start
SUN 1-0 LIV : Spearing and Lucas start, Mascherano came on for Spearing
POR 2-0 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start, Spearing came on for Lucas
HUL 0-0 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start a game against a relegated side where a win could have seen us finish one place higher
FUL 3-1 LIV : Mascherano and Lucas start, Ayala came on for Kuyt when we were 2-1 down albeit down to nine men

I mean that lot make for nightmarish reading, nine games where we start with two DMs and should have been looking to win. Not only that, in four games Rafa didn't even try to win by using all his subs. And against Fulham we may have been down to nine men when Rafa brought on a CB, but surely we needed attacking players/goalscoring options on the pitch to try and equalise?!!?!

So it isn't just that a team plays somewhat defensively, countering your opponents in a knockout game isn't the worst offence in the world. But in a three point league system, playing 1/4 of your games with two DMs in matches you should be looking to win is a criminal offence, in fact I correct myself there by saying playing two DMs in so many matches you should be looking to win and not winning them is a criminal offence since we played two DMs in other matches we lost or won, but I've picked out games we should have been picking up 10+ more points than we did (combined) We picked up four, we should have picked up at least fourteen. OK only one was at home, but is it any wonder our away record was abysmal with that approach?!? It kinda worked with Alonso in the side, but even then with some fortune with opponents sent off for fouling him, a deflected winner at SB, late goals etc. Only for 1/4 of a season have we played really attacking and effective football in the past/last two seasons of Rafa's reign.

It was terrible that the first 10 or so cup games of 09/10 we didn't score more than one goal in any cup game, so even the approach that is kinda defended in this thread is indefensible when it doesn't work. Holland should have been more positive in the final, Rafa should have been a lot more positive in the league. Rafa paid the price for his ineffective approach, the Dutch coach lost for the first time in a competitive match against the reigning European Champions by ONE goal in extra time - BIG difference

by **Owzat** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 8:01 am

Oh and Greece is a terrible team to use for comparison, they didn't have a very strong team so had to make most of what they had. Rafa had a top four side playing that approach whereas Greece were probably bottom four out of the 16, not top four - arguably the bottom four being Bulgaria, Switzerland, Latvia and Greece

by **jacdaniel** » Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:06 am

This is the future of football people. There is too much pressure in the game these days. That means young players never get a chance, managers don't get time and therefore can't get their teams to express themselves the way they want to.

The first task of any manager is to concentrate on defense. Make the team difficult to beat and get them fighting.

unfortunately, managers don't get time anymore. And it takes time to get a team to play attractive football. its no coincidence that the Mancs and Arsenal play the best football in the PL and have had managers around for the longest periods.

The best short term solution is to get a team fighting and winning ugly. its a results driven game.

PS: I think Rafa signing johnson and Aqua man was a hint that he was trying to help us evolve into a more direct team. unfortunately it never came to fruitition.

by **tubby** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:35 am

Just to mention Germany played the same system..... they didn't look dull in the slightest. I suppose it comes down to the qualities of the players involved and how you approach it.

by **bigmick** » Wed Jul 14, 2010 9:48 am

bavlondon wrote:Just to mention Germany played the same system..... they didn't look dull in the slightest. I suppose it comes down to the qualities of the players involved and how you approach it.

There's nothing wrong with any "system" in football, it all depends on the players who play in it. two defensive midfielders isn't the way I interpreted Germany playing FWIW, but it doesn't matter.

Whichever way you looked at it and whichever system anybody thought we were playing last season, I can't get away from my absolute certainty that the Lucas/Masherano axis was a disaster. Now if you played with defensive midfielders and it was Gerrard/Alonso, or Alonso/Sissoko then obviously it looks ery different, as would Gerrard/Masherano.

We lost 19 matches last season, and there must be a reason for it. You can't be unlucky 19 times, there was a reason why we were rubbish. My feeling is that it doesn't really matter as much how you set up, as to who you actually put in each slot. If for instance we had played with 1 holder and pushed Lucas on, it would probably have been better (it could hardly have been any worse lets be honest).

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