Liverpool FC Forum

by **Tricky Dicky** » Fri May 28, 2010 2:52 pm

I reckon England will do well this year (i don't usually say this)

by **LFC2007** » Fri May 28, 2010 6:29 pm

R16: Q/F S/F

France v Nigeria
England v France
England v Ghana
England v Brazil
Netherlands v Paraguay
Paraguay v Brazil
Brazil v Chile

Argentina v Uruguay
Argentina v Germany
Germany v USA
Argentina v Spain

Italy v Cameroon :buttrock

Italy v Spain
Spain v Ivory Coast

FINAL: England v Spain

------------------------------------------------

No doubt it won't turn out like that. I do expect Spain to dominate their side of the draw, though, likewise England-Brazil dominating the other half.

Those three have the mix of a strong spine, a handful of world class players and experience.

Spain have probably the best midfield in just about any international team I can ever remember, two of the very best strikers in the world who are in their prime, the best GK in the world, and a fairly decent defence. They have the experience of winning the Euros and went on an unbelievable winning streak thereafter - comprehensively defeating three of the main contenders along the way; most of their players regularly perform on the top European stage and they have a very experienced coach. And so they have to be favourites (pressure's on

). If there is a weakness it's in their defence, and sabre might say it's also in their colective mentality, but I don't see a good reason why that should inhibit them more than the other top sides who share the pressure to succeed.

The Brazil side possesses less flair and more efficiency than teams gone by. In the qualifiers they totally nullified Messi, Aguero, Tevez and co. simply by working hard and remaining a compact unit. If you can't go through a team, you have to go around it to pull players apart or get crosses in, but with determined players like Lucio, Luisao, Maicon, Melo and Silva that is a very tough task and it showed in the qualifiers. They retain a potent, but - by comparison with the Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo generation - limited threat in attack with Kaka and Luis Fabiano their main threat through the middle. Nevertheless, the strong spine is there, so to is the experience and the handful of world class players.

England for me are third favourites for the tournament. Capello is one of the best managers in the tournament and his track record with England has thus far been solid. The main strengths of this England side are tactical discipline and experience. To my mind if they are fit, the defence is as good as any there is on the international stage. If Ashley Cole isn't one of the top two best LBs in the world, I'd like to know who is. Likewise with Ferdinand, if he's fit and close to form, he's one of the very best there is. Terry is a solid defender (these are purely footballing judgments before anyone jumps in), and Glen is exceptional going forward, if a little suspect in defence. The midfield is similarly solid, with Barry providing a platform for Lampard, Gerrard and further forward Rooney to do the business. Around them are decent options in the likes of Defoe, Crouch, Walcott, Joe Cole, Adam Johnson or whoever is eventually selected. The one worrying area would be GK. I don't rate Robert Green, Joe Hart is too inexperienced and then there's David James. I'd go for James because although he is prone to his moments, he's a brilliant shot stopper on his day, he's very experienced, and he's done alright in the cups recently, and he's the only other option there is. Plus I just can't envisage Robert Green or Joe Hart lifting the World Cup, whereas James has this "f'uck you, I'm David James, I've been around the block" assured look about him.

Of the others, Italy are next, they've the experience and the spine (i.e. Buffon, Cannavaro, De Rossi), but I'm really not sure if they have the world class ability, particularly in the final third. No Del Piero, Totti or Inzaghi this time and their replacements aren't all that by the looks of things.

Then Argentina. Special quality, check. Strong spine or experience? Not for me. For the wealth of options they have in the final third, their defence has been proven to be highly suspect for a long time now. They also lack a midfield passer which is strange seeing as they've left out Cambiasso. Bizarre, ridiculous, but with Messi, Aguero, Higuain, Tevez and co, you could never rule them out.

Then France and Germany. Can anyone see them winning it? I can't. Germany are a pretty average side these days and Ballack - injured - is easily their best player, and who the feck is Joachim Low? Not for me. France? A few too many holes in their squad. Noted quality in Anelka, Henry, Ribery and Malouda but where is the presence in midfield? No Zidane, Makelele or Viera this time round, with average replacements and a defence that is just decent. I have no confidence in their manager either. Uncomfortable in qualifying, fortunate to make the final last time round.

The Netherlands? Midfield, wingers very strong. Defence not enough strength or quality. Fairly good options up front (Van Persie, Huntelaar) but not nearly as good as the top three sides. Lacking in experience too. Round of 16 or Q/Fs tops.

Outside bet: Paraguay. Impressed in qualifying.

by **bunglemark2** » Fri May 28, 2010 9:54 pm

LFC2007 wrote:Outside bet: Paraguay. Impressed in qualifying.

Shoight, in Dublin the other night...
Granted it was a friendly, but you'd think the players would be out to impress and cement a first team starting position....They were toothless though...

So I won't be backing Paraguay mate...

by **LFC2007** » Fri May 28, 2010 10:17 pm

bunglemark2 wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Outside bet: Paraguay. Impressed in qualifying.

Shoight, in Dublin the other night...
Granted it was a friendly, but you'd think the players would be out to impress and cement a first team starting position....They were toothless though...

So I won't be backing Paraguay mate...

How DO you get past Paul McShane?

They did beat both Brazil and Argentina in the qualifying rounds but seemingly their second best forward (Cabanas) was shot in the head (as yer do) a while back and therefore didn't make the WC squad. Maybe that had something to do with it...

by **Sabre** » Fri May 28, 2010 10:37 pm

Spain have probably the best midfield in just about any international team I can ever remember, two of the very best strikers in the world who are in their prime, the best GK in the world, and a fairly decent defence. They have the experience of winning the Euros and went on an unbelievable winning streak thereafter - comprehensively defeating three of the main contenders along the way; most of their players regularly perform on the top European stage and they have a very experienced coach. And so they have to be favourites (pressure's on ). If there is a weakness it's in their defence, and sabre might say it's also in their colective mentality, but I don't see a good reason why that should inhibit them more than the other top sides who share the pressure to succeed.

I wouldn't say Spain have a lot of pressure right now. The real pressure was to win nothing since the Madrid Euro Cup and that one was probably fixed. It was real pressure the weight of being the biggest underachievers ever, and it was quite a weight, because you were supposed to be favourite, yet you never delivered. I think mentality wise the Spanish squad is better than never, due to the last silverware.

It's the best Spanish squad I can remember. In the eighties you had a team of Butragueño (the vulture), Martin Vazquez and Michel, and that was about everything Spain had in the quality front, alongside a good keeper. Now we're stronger, with better quality and with players that have played in England, which IMHO is very important because they have brought to the Spanish team an intensity that they didn't use to have. Take the goal of the final against Germany. That strenght Torres showed, how he won the position against Lahm, is something he would have never developed if he hadn't gone to England.

For me the weakest link are RB and LB. Quite simply because they're not as good as the rest of the team.

But you never know what will happen. It was interesting to read your post because I've seen little international football these years. The relegation of my local club left me without feeling like watching primera games, international games, or european games, which I used to watch years ago. These years I've only watched RS and Liverpool games so I know very little about the state of many squads.

But for the little I've seen, I'd say that Spain is stronger yes, but Germany, Italy, and France aren't the superpowers that they used to be. England is coming back to the strenght we expect from them and they're stronger than in the last decade, but if I look at European football as a whole, I'd say we have less level than we used to have.

Bring the WC!

My outsiders: Mexico. Tough team to beat.

by **bunglemark2** » Fri May 28, 2010 11:06 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
bunglemark2 wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:Outside bet: Paraguay. Impressed in qualifying.

Shoight, in Dublin the other night...
Granted it was a friendly, but you'd think the players would be out to impress and cement a first team starting position....They were toothless though...

So I won't be backing Paraguay mate...

How DO you get past Paul McShane?

They did beat both Brazil and Argentina in the qualifying rounds but seemingly their second best forward (Cabanas) was shot in the head (as yer do) a while back and therefore didn't make the WC squad. Maybe that had something to do with it...

Mate, John Aldridge, who was commentating tonight, would STILL get past Paul McShane

by **Owzat** » Sat May 29, 2010 8:24 am

rocky29 wrote:
s@int wrote:No need for anyone else to turn up, Spain will walk away with it, I just hope England make a good show for once and get to the semi's or even the final.

dont talk daft spains record in world and european cups is . I want a italy v england final. And i hope after the game capello wont be allowed back in his native country.

While it is true Spain could have a better World Cup record, 4th place ONCE being their only semi-final, they have reached 13 finals and are 10th in the table of percentage games won at the finals - less than a percent behind England and with Ghana in a false high position due to few games played, Denmark surprisingly have only played 13 so also in a false high position.

BUT in terms of Euros they are THIRD in my ranking system which is based on placings (13th in the same system for World Cups) They've appeared in more Euro tournaments than ANY other team, only Germany (3x) have won more times

Owzat Euro Ranking

1. Germany 140 points (Winners x3, Runners-Up x3, SF x1)
2. Russia 105 points (Winners x2, Runners-Up x3, 4th x1)
3. SPAIN 102 points (Winners x2, Runners-Up x1, QF x7)
4. France 91 points (Winners x2, 4th x1, SF x1)
5. Holland 83 points (Winners x1, 3rd x1, SF x3)

The points system is basically 25 for winning, 16 for 2nd, 13 for 3rd, 10 for 4th or a semi-final (where there was no play-off) and smaller amounts for other end placings including just getting there. I probably should change it to award more for winning which is the whole object, Spain and France should probably be above Russia, but that said Russia have four finals to Spain and France's three and two respectively.

The World Cup version has Brazil top, Germany second, Italy third and Argentina fourth. Uruguay are sixth by virtue of their two early wins, but they haven't done a lot since.

England do hold one record, the most QFs (8) of any World Cup team - and by some margin. That's because most teams go on beyond it when getting that far so often, Argentina, Spain, Yugoslavia and Brazil are joint second with five QFs

by **Owzat** » Sat May 29, 2010 8:36 am

LFC2007 wrote:Outside bet: Paraguay. Impressed in qualifying.

Not impressive WC record, in the last 14 World Cups they've qualified five times and reached the second round three times.

Paraguay at WC finals : P22 W6 D7 L9 F27 A36

I would hang on to your money, back Argentina.

WORLD CUP WINNERS

2006 Europe (ITA)
2002 S.America (BRA)
1998 Europe (FRA)
1994 S.America (BRA)
1990 Europe (GER)
1986 S.America (ARG)
1982 Europe (ITA)
1978 S.America (ARG)
1974 Europe (GER)
1970 S.America (BRA)
1966 Europe (ENG)
1962 S.America (BRA)

So it is South America's turn to win, and by the pattern of their wins - BRA BRA ARG ARG BRA BRA - it must be Argentina's turn. Backed up by some of their players they have like Aguero, Messi and Tevez. The only tournaments not held in Europe or South America were won by Brazil (Mexico 70, USA 94 and Japan/Korea 02) and Argentina (Mexico 86)

by **Tricky Dicky** » Sat May 29, 2010 9:31 am

Not impressive WC record, in the last 14 World Cups they've qualified five times and reached the second round three times.

Paraguay at WC finals : P22 W6 D7 L9 F27 A36

I would hang on to your money, back Argentina.

Just because a nations history in the comp is not so good, that doesn't determine how well they'll do now does it?

I mean Greece's EC record was never any good but that never stopped them from winning the comp more recently.

As for Argentina, I'd hardly call them an "outside bet", would you?

by **Big Niall** » Sat May 29, 2010 12:09 pm

Owzat wrote:
rocky29 wrote:
s@int wrote:No need for anyone else to turn up, Spain will walk away with it, I just hope England make a good show for once and get to the semi's or even the final.

dont talk daft spains record in world and european cups is . I want a italy v england final. And i hope after the game capello wont be allowed back in his native country.

While it is true Spain could have a better World Cup record, 4th place ONCE being their only semi-final, they have reached 13 finals and are 10th in the table of percentage games won at the finals - less than a percent behind England and with Ghana in a false high position due to few games played, Denmark surprisingly have only played 13 so also in a false high position.

BUT in terms of Euros they are THIRD in my ranking system which is based on placings (13th in the same system for World Cups) They've appeared in more Euro tournaments than ANY other team, only Germany (3x) have won more times

Owzat Euro Ranking

1. Germany 140 points (Winners x3, Runners-Up x3, SF x1)
2. Russia 105 points (Winners x2, Runners-Up x3, 4th x1)
3. SPAIN 102 points (Winners x2, Runners-Up x1, QF x7)
4. France 91 points (Winners x2, 4th x1, SF x1)
5. Holland 83 points (Winners x1, 3rd x1, SF x3)

The points system is basically 25 for winning, 16 for 2nd, 13 for 3rd, 10 for 4th or a semi-final (where there was no play-off) and smaller amounts for other end placings including just getting there. I probably should change it to award more for winning which is the whole object, Spain and France should probably be above Russia, but that said Russia have four finals to Spain and France's three and two respectively.

The World Cup version has Brazil top, Germany second, Italy third and Argentina fourth. Uruguay are sixth by virtue of their two early wins, but they haven't done a lot since.

England do hold one record, the most QFs (8) of any World Cup team - and by some margin. That's because most teams go on beyond it when getting that far so often, Argentina, Spain, Yugoslavia and Brazil are joint second with five QFs

Am I right in saying that England have only ever won 1 quarter final match on foreign soil - Cameroon in 1990?

by **Big Niall** » Sat May 29, 2010 12:11 pm

Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not impressive WC record, in the last 14 World Cups they've qualified five times and reached the second round three times.

Paraguay at WC finals : P22 W6 D7 L9 F27 A36

I would hang on to your money, back Argentina.

Just because a nations history in the comp is not so good, that doesn't determine how well they'll do now does it?

I mean Greece's EC record was never any good but that never stopped them from winning the comp more recently.

As for Argentina, I'd hardly call them an "outside bet", would you?

but the big boys tend to do well most times. Germans thought there team was rubbish last time yet they were within a few minutes of a shoot out against Italy (which they'd have won) for a place in the final.

Italy were poor and they won the thing.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 29, 2010 1:37 pm

Tricky Dicky wrote:
Not impressive WC record, in the last 14 World Cups they've qualified five times and reached the second round three times.

Paraguay at WC finals : P22 W6 D7 L9 F27 A36

I would hang on to your money, back Argentina.

Just because a nations history in the comp is not so good, that doesn't determine how well they'll do now does it?

I mean Greece's EC record was never any good but that never stopped them from winning the comp more recently.

As for Argentina, I'd hardly call them an "outside bet", would you?

Spot on.

What determines how far a team goes is how good they are. Usually the best sides have an historical record of performing well at tournaments and that is a reflection of the level of footballer produced in these countries. But for some of these nations (Brazil, England, Spain, Argentina), getting to the Q/Fs or S/Fs isn't seen as a real achievement yet that's more or less how I see the extent of France, Germany and The Netherlands' potential - i.e. less likely to go as far as England Brazil or Spain. Disastrous campaigns are rare, though they do happen. Just look at S. Korea/Japan. France finished bottom of their group, Argentina, Portugal and Russia finished third - in other words, they failed to qualify for the round of 16. Or in Euro 2008 where France were utterly woeful and finished bottom of their group under the current manager. Or Greece winning Euro 2004 with Spain, Italy, Russia and Germany all failing to get out of the group stages. These things happen because a record tells you what has happened, not what will happen. If Man Utd went into administration and sold off all of their best players and brought in cr@p before the start of the next season, you wouldn't claim "but they'll obviously be right up there next season, just look at their record". You'd look at the quality of their team, their coach and the level of competition make an assessment that way.

If ever a Germany side were going to go tads up in a tournament, it would be this one because it's lacking its best player and doesn't have the quality of the sides gone by that produced the record that Owzat and others like to refer to (is it wise to rely on the events of 20 years in order to speculate what might happen this time around? What remains from 1990 in THIS German side apart from the residual "national conscience"? Feck all is the answer! Teams change, this one has and their historical record is mainly a reflection of an underlying strength in producing good players, that usually but not always translates in major international tournaments, as the best teams have the best players and these teams typically progress further than the rest). If ever there was an Argentina side that looked f'ing dodgy, it's this one. If ever there were a Spain side that looked like it could dominate, it is this one. Why? Because Germany look incomplete and lack quality, because Argentina were extremely dodgy throughout their qualifying campaign and Spain just look exceptional.

I am not saying that I would bet on Paraguay either, btw, as neither would have I have bet on Greece but if I were to have a flutter and pick a rank outsider I'd pick Paraguay, because I've seen them play and they looked good. Simple as that really.

by **JC_81** » Sat May 29, 2010 4:24 pm

LFC2007 - agree with most of your assessment regarding tournament favourites etc.

The only thing I don't really agree with is England as third favourites behind Spain and Brazil. Spain and Brazil will be the teams to beat imo unquestionably, but I'd put England back in a group with Italy, Germany, France, Holland and Argentina as potential contenders depending on injuries/form going into the tournament.

I think on paper England and Argentina look the best out of that group, but while Argentina's weaknesses are lack of balance and a sensible coach, England have problems too.

The reliance on Rooney would concern me, as would the form of Gerrard and the fitness of Ashley Cole, Ledley King and Rio Ferdinand. King looked seriously rusty against the Mexicans (who played the better football in that game and in fact to lose 1-3 was a ridiculous result) and that would give serious cause for concern given Ferdinand's back trouble and Terry's lack of pace should he have to partner Carra or Dawson in the middle because of injuries. The keeper is obviously a standout weakness also - James has to play but we know too well that despite his talent he is capable of dropping the odd clanger. Also depending on what state Barry turn's up to the tournament in, that would also be a worry - Carrick was embarrassingly bad against Mexico, while Milner didn't impress me either. I can see Gerrard being deployed in the holding role if Barry's not fit.

But there is the Capello factor. There have been better England squads in recent years imo, but if any manager can guide them through a tournament it's this man.

Assuming everyone's fit this is the team I'd play...

James

Johnson Ferdinand Terry Cole

Lennon Lampard Barry Gerrard

Crouch Rooney

by **ted hitchcock** » Sat May 29, 2010 5:06 pm

This is bloody catchy.

I like the idea that we know our weather's :censored:

, the food's :censored:

, the transport's :censored:

etc etc but we're STILL Better than you!! Even when we LOSE we're better than you.

OK, it's not exactly Bohemian Rhapsody, but it's a bit of annoyingly catchy fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMGAjTkW7LI

by **woof woof !** » Sat May 29, 2010 5:14 pm

john craig wrote:Assuming everyone's fit this is the team I'd play...

James

Johnson Ferdinand Terry Cole

Lennon Lampard Barry Gerrard

Crouch Rooney

Mate if we're doing player manager

I'd go with

. James

. Johnson Ferdinand Terry A.Cole

. Barry

. Gerrard Lampard

.Walcott J.Cole

Rooney

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