Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

Carra's thoughts on rotation :-

What I will say is I've never liked it, and I don't believe there's a footballer at any level, English or foreign, who ever will. The philosophy contradicts everything you learn while growing up to become a footballer. Certain principles are set in stone at an early agewhich breed a will to win. They include fighting for your shirt, playing for your place and doing everything once you're in th team to stay there.

(some missing here I am not typing it all out!)

The key problem with mass rotation, as employed by Liverpool, is it undermines the team ethic. Shelfishness creeps into the ranksbecause you become more aware how vulnerable you are to being left out, no matter how well or badly you play.

(some more missing here )

I believe you need a structure within the squad so the best eleven earn their places on merit and know they've got to keep their standards high to stay in the side. Such are the demands at a club like ours, where you can play over 50 games a season, I'd say you need a spine of at least 8 players who start week in week out, with the rest fighting for their shirt. Thats how United and Chelsea operated. If anyone dips they are out.

-----------------------------

Hopefully I have not corrupted Carra's views.

[bigmick]

Rotation or lack thereof isn't the reason we've started well, we've started seasons well in the past whilst rotating. Rotation isn't, never was and never will be the be all and end all. To the best of my knowledge, not many people ever said it was.

It remains however a strongly held belief in this quarter anyway, that if you needlessly tinker with the line-up, formation and positions which people play in to the extent we have in the past, as sure as eggs is eggs you will cost yourself points. I think I've been fairly consistent all the way down the track on it. I think we would definately have challenged for the League title in the two seasons previous to this one had we have rotated less. Further, I think we will go very close to winning it this season if we continue along the lines of our current selction policy. I said that last season before it had even finished. If we give ourselves a chance this season, we will go very close.

And that's what it's all about really, giving yourself a chance. Perhaps when push comes to shove we won't be quite good enough, the squad won't be quite big enough or have enough quality to cover for injuries to key players, but at least if you play with largely a settled line up you give yourself a chance to find out. Arsenal found out last season that their team was the equal of everybody, but the top two teams could just replace injured players slightly better than they could so they fell away. At least they had a shot at it though, whereas we put ourselves out of it by November with our styling. All I've ever asked is that we give ourselves a chance.

The reason why I mentioned it in the match thread was not because I necessarily wanted to restart the rotation debate because thats done to my mind. Even Rafa it seems to me is now a convert because quite simply he's dropped the whole idea. Quite where that leaves those who heaped derision upon me and others over the last few seasons I'm not sure but thats for them to answer I guess.


No, the reason I mentioned it was because when I and others predicted this season we would see a drastic reduction in the styling, people were inredulous. "He'll never change' said most, "why should he, it works" said a couple. Well I've always thought the manager wasn't an idiot, a waiter or whatever else and he would be able to see the evidience, the irrifutable proof before his eyes. He dropped it twards the end of last season and we won every game practically. He has seen the light, and now lets see how good this team which he has built really is.

[account deleted by request]

I am certainly one of the people who thought that Rafa would never change and that there was no light to see as far as Rafa was concerned. I thought and STILL believe that when push comes to shove Rafa will rotate, even though I am now enough of a convert to hope I am wrong.

I think the injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso etc have just saved Rafa a job ...... rotating them. Add to this the Olympics with the enforced absence of Babel, Lucas and Mascherano and maybe he's not as changed as you might think?

I think its too early to claim he's seen the light just yet Mick.......... if he is still more or less sticking to a settled team after a couple of CL games , by the Chelsea game perhaps, maybe then we can look forward to more restrained styling and say that Rafa has indeed seen the light.

[Sabre]

I think the injuries to Torres, Gerrard, Mascherano, Alonso etc have just saved Rafa a job ...... rotating them. Add to this the Olympics with the enforced absence of Babel, Lucas and Mascherano and maybe he's not as changed as you might think?

I too think that the absences of certain players have "helped" Rafa, and so have the drop of form of other players.

A point that would support this theory is the fact Rafa has been using regularly a midfielder that he was ready to sell in summer, Alonso. If Alonso didn't play, and Mascherano isn't available, you have to think in Plessis to find a player of the same role, which is a step down in quality. It remains to be seen what will Rafa do when both Alonso and Mascherano are normally available.

If the theory of the light is correct, one of these two will play a lot less now Gerrard is playing in the middle. The other one will have to be happy with enter as a substitution -- with the odd exception or rest.

If Rafa keeps faithful to his philosophy until now, he'll use them often, and both of them will start games and will be rotated depending on what the next game needs. And we won't be able to say who's more regular than the other clearly.

Anyhow, the point of my recovery of the thread, is not to revisit the whole debate, nor to say who's right, but to gather here the inevitable comments about this topic that usually appear in the forum here and there.

[maguskwt]

rafa is still rotating and will rotate in the future... he might be rotating a little bit less now. but he still is... example... marseille game, and at villa park where keane was playing on the left... but then mick can always say that it's not 'styling'...

[metalhead]

As long as its rotating sensibley then I won't complain.

[Bad Bob]

Ahh, a timeless classic...the rotation thread!

I've just had a careful look at the teamsheets in the Match Info thread and, at this stage, they fully support Mick's view that Rafa's seen the light.  Of course, if we look at the gross number of changes it says that Rafa's as mad as ever for chopping and changing: 41 changes over 10 matches!  The raw numbers never tell the real story, however, because it doesn't distinguish tactical changes from those enforced by injury and because it includes both the 11 switches made for the Crewe match and the 11 made to get the first teamers back on the teamsheet for the derby.  If we disregard those 22 changes (because I think even the most rampant anti-rotationalists accept that the Carling Cup is the one competition where wholesale chopping and changing is intelligent management) then we're looking at 19 changes over 10 matches, which yields a very unRafa-like less than 2 changes per game.

Much more important than the raw numbers, though, is the stability we see in the personnel and formation selected.  In 10 matches, we've played an out-and-out 4-4-2 in 7 games--possibly 8 if the formation in the Carling Cup matters to people (never saw the match myself).  The only exceptions were variations on the 4-2-3-1 away to Villa and to Olympique Marseille.  In terms of personnel, I would say that no fewer than 8 of our starting 11 are firmly established first-teamers, and you could make a decent case for there actually being 9 or 10 nailed on starters.  Things look like this (nailed-on starter in bold):

                      Reina

Arbeloa        Skrtel       Carragher     Dossena

Kuyt          Gerrard    Alonso         Riera

              Keane      Torres


Just to give you a sense of the numbers...

Keeper - Reina (started 9 of 10)
RB - Arbeloa (started 9 of 10)
CB - Carragher (started 9 of 10)
CB - Skrtel (started 7 of 10; Agger and Hyypia each have 2 starts--including the CC match--for comparison)
LB - Dossena (started 7 of 10; Aurelio's started 2 but has been unfit for 4 matches to date)
RM - Kuyt (started 8 of 10 at RM, as well as the Man U match at ST in Torres' absence)
CM - Gerrard (started every game when not injured, natch)
CM - Alonso (started 7 of 10; Masch has started 3 but has been unavailable for 5; Lucas and Plessis have each started 3)
LM - Riera (started 3; Benayoun has four starts there but was an obvious stand-in; Babel has only 1 start in this position)
ST - Torres (started 8 of 10)
ST - Keane (started 8 of 10)

So far, then, the only styling has occured at LM and most of that can be accounted for by Babel's absence at the Olympics and by Riera's late arrival.  The biggest surprise, IMO, is the fact that Rafa has resisted rotating Skrtel and Agger. 

Looking into my crystal ball, I expect we'll see more rotation between Xabi and Masch at CM and possibly between Dossena and Aurelio at LB in coming matches.  Otherwise, the starting 11 looks pretty fixed for the first time under Rafa.  In terms of competitions--and leaving out the obvious rotatopalooza that is the Carling Cup--I sense that Rafa will lean towards the odd bit of styling in the Champions League.  At Marseille, after all, we saw him rest Alonso and Keane, playing Lucas and Babel in their stead, while also switching from 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1.  But, by and large, I think Rafa has confidence in his first team at the moment and that shows in his selectorial consistency.  Who would have thought?

[bigmick]

rafa is still rotating and will rotate in the future... he might be rotating a little bit less now. but he still is... example... marseille game, and at villa park where keane was playing on the left... but then mick can always say that it's not 'styling'...

It's a question of degree though mate. Of those changes which Bob has numbered, a large proportion were through injuries or niggles, no problem there. Like I've always said, nobody is saying we have to play the same team in every single game, we couldn't even if we wanted to.

In the past though, we've seen five and six changes from game to game, formational alterations, players being shunted around into different positions, strikers in rich seams of form being benched etc etc.

Infact it could be argued that there have been times in the past where the best way of making yourself an absolute certain pick was to be a misfiring striker. Crouch went sixteen games or whatever it was unrotated when he arrived as he searched for his opening goal. Kuyt was persevered with for months until he made the mistake of letting the ball go in off his knee at Newcastle, breaking his scoring famine but unfortunately rendering him droppable which of course he promptly was.

People were "rested" for big games to come, with the idea of "keeping them fresh" before promptly getting injured two weeks later. Players looked at each other during games as combinations misfired, back heels found nobody, dummies were collected by grateful defenders. We searched in vain for defensive cohesion (although I think at times our defensive solidity under the number of changes was remarkable and a tribute to Rafa as a defensive coach).

Saint reckons we'll see more rotation in the Champions league and I hope he's right. I hope we win our first three matches and change the whole team if he fancies it for the last three. Carling Cup? go for your life, I'll play if you like. Sabes reckons Alonso and Masherano will rotate and no doubt they will. Not as much as people think though, because we will get injuries to one of our three central midfielders from time to time, Gerrard will replace Kuyt at some point I'm sure of it and no doubt keane as well.

But like I say it's a question of degree. Those in posession ought to have confidence in the manager and his methodology to the extent that they know if they're in the team and they play well, they stay. Alonso for instance should stay in the team away to Man City. Does this mean that Masherano should be on the bench? Possibly but not necessarily. Gerrard could move to replace either Kuyt or Keane, but failing that we could stick with the same team.

The way we are doing it at the moment makes perfect sense to me. Long may it continue.

[skatesy]

As several have already said, we need to make a strict distinction between the needless rotating and the justifiable rotating. There is nothing wrong with justifiably switching certain players for good reason and every big team does it, as well as every team who is challenging for league and cup titles. Arsenal does it, Chelsea does it, Man Utd does it and Liverpool is following suit. There have been a lot of situations in the past, under Rafa, where he would rotate certain players in that would just boggle the mind. It seems that this mindset has been thrown out the window and the only 'rotating' and 'tinkering' has been done for justifiable reasons. It is quite clear that Rafa has a pretty good idea of who is best eleven is and he is sticking with that eleven. It is also obvious, however, that he uses different players under different situations, like Dossena and Aurelio or Benayoun and Kuyt. There is, furthermore, nothing wrong with this.

I am quite happy that Rafa is no longer doing the mind boggling rotating as I do believe it effected the team negatively in the past.

[account deleted by request]

I was actually meaning the league games after CL games Mick, but I didn't exactly make it clear in my previous post.

Our two bad results against Villa and Stoke both came after midweek games in the CL. So it will be interesting to see what teams he puts out against our next 3 League opponents  Citeh, Wigan and Chelsea. If we see little rotation in those three games, I will really start to believe we are "going " for the league and that Rafa has seen the light.

Kuyt was persevered with for months until he made the mistake of letting the ball go in off his knee at Newcastle, breaking his scoring famine but unfortunately rendering him droppable which of course he promptly was.

 

I agree with your misfiring striker analysis ........ Keane seems to have managed to play in almost every game........ even if he has only managed to play the full 90 mins in a couple. While Kuyt seems to play every game, though at times Rob Jones had more goal threat!

[redtrader74]

There has still been a huge number of changes this season, i'd hazard a guess no less than at this stage last season, regardless of which games they have occurred in. I seem to remember that there was a point of view held in this very thread many moons ago, that all these changes will not allow cohesion fluidity rhythm etc.etc etc. even if these mass changes were in different competitons. Just wondering why anyone really thinks Rafa has 'seen the light'?

[account deleted by request]

No where near as settled a line up last season mate

after 10 games last season :-

        Starts

Reina      9
Arbeloa  10
Agger     5
Carra     8
Finnan   8
Riise     4
Alonso   5
Gerrard  5
Pennant 6
Kuyt     6
Torres   6
Hyypia  6
Babel    5
Benayoun 4
Mascherano5
Crouch    4
Voronin   4
Sissoko   3
Leto       2
------------- League cup only :-
Itandji    1
Aurelio   1
Lucas     1

[JoeTerp]

if anyone cared to look at my stats that i put on the match info thread. On the 4th sheet of the excel file is the rotation numbers. Within the premier league we are making 2 changes per match, and when you adjust for "forced" changes* its only .6 changes per match


*injuries, suspensions, injury return for normal starter

[bigmick]

What is quite interesting for the rotation theorists is that just as we are binning the idea of mass rotation game by game, the Premiership has another manager who is looking to re-write the methodology which has been historically successful in English football. It's quite good that we can track how they get on, plot their results on a graph as well. That team of course is Tottenham, and it's been a fairly sticky start in English football for their previously successful mananger.

I was just reading the match report on the BBC website of their lacklustre defeat defeat of Portsmouth. Players were "playing like strangers" it said, while Darren Bent, that strapping young fella they have up front had been "rested" because he'd played in the previous six matches. He was brought on as a sub of course when they were chasing the game, so presumeably that extra hour that he sat on the bench as opposed to being on the pitch will stand him in good stead for matches later on I guess. He's still travelled with the team, trained with the team, stayed overnight with the team, warmed up with the team, warmed up previous to coming on, and then played for half an hour but he will feel much the fresher for the hour on his erse.

Needless to say when he did come on, they took Pavleychencko off and carried on playing with one up front despite being 2-0 down. Some of the Spurs fans didn't like this bit and got on the managers case. They had the feeling that as they were supposed to be chasing the game, perhaps they could play with two strikers. Must be a bunch of plumbers and cocktail barmen obviously as what would they know?

Since he has been at Tottenham, apparently (according to me old man, a died in the wool ex season ticket Tottenham fan) Ramos has won ten league matches in around a year. His record is by all accounts very comparable with a certain Christian Gross, despite having spent a few quid. One of those signings was a bloke by the name of Modric, and one or two of the cocktail barmen and plaumbers think that he might have been a questionable signing as he's a bit lightwieght for the Premiership. What do they know though?

Anyway like I say, it'll be interesting to see if they can make it work for them.

[pass_da_dutchie]

Why are we arsed with Spurs with the greatest respect? It's the same when people bang on about Chelsea and United, them. Try concentrating on what's happening with our club and let other clubs worry about us for a change.

Right now we're picking up results and at the end of the day that's all that matters.