Liverpool FC Forum

by **taff** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:46 pm

ok bigmick i agree with you in principle but the examples about tevez, fabregas etc, then why dont they hammer teams every week. With their great runs etc they should score every ten minutes or so, or is it tiny things that stop this happening.

We need to improve of course but imo, Rafa has opted for rotational decisions to enable us to cope with the stresses of the season. So far we are in 4th and deservedly so but I think we will gain position on the rest of the league as the season progresses. I think its a balance of who plays well together with the demands of the season.

I think we might have a differeing of opinion but as it stands now who's to know who is correct. Whatever happens I look forward to the review of the season

Oh and in an interview this week Rafa says he will stop rotating, he will change his team like other managers do every week so maybe the media will stop going on about it

by **bigmick** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:49 pm

stmichael wrote:Best thing to happen would be for Rafa to win the league title this season or next and then it will not only ram all the anti-rotation down peoples throats but also end the debate once and for all and we'll hopefully never have to endure hearing the word again because it well and truly does my head in.

We never heard nothing about it during our first 6 games of the season when we won 5 and drew one and Rafa was ROTATING as much then as he is now.Soon as we drew at Pompey out it comes and off we go again about it all being down to rotation blah blah blah.

Its funny that we had 2 wins against Reading and Wigan after Rafa making EIGHT changes to the team for each match and yet that gets conveniently over-looked. Shouldn't making EIGHT changes to a team completely balls it up and we should be losing 4-0 or something if you listen to the experts??..hmmm.

It doesn't matter whether you pick the same 11 each week or make 5 changes per game, if the 11 that do play don't perform or make individual errors then we hamper our chances of winning. Rafa only made 1 change for the Spurs game from the previous league game and yet rotation was blamed for that draw...Was it not 2 individual errors by our players gifting Spurs 2 goals??. Yes,i think so.

We could go on a 10 game winning streak from tomorrow onwards and NO ONE will mention rotation despite Rafa making 5 changes per game.Then we could lose the 11th game or worst still draw it (As draws seem to cause mass hysteria nowadays with our fans)and Rafa will get stick galore for ROTATING.

Rotation is not the reason we don't win games and never has been but as with the scenario i've just put up, it will get brought up boringly each time we don't win a game. I was pleased to see an unchanged team yesterday but that wasn't the reason we won the game. We won the game mainly due to a bit of individual brilliance from Torres.

Hmmmm. I'm at a loss where to start St because needless to say I disagree with practically every word. I suppose as good a place as any would be the obvious point that you don't have to "endure" hearing the word necessarily, but if you come onto the rotaion thread you probably will

I'm not sure whether your use of the double negative in the second paragraph is deliberate, but I for one was on about rotation before we played Derby even. I even started a thread on the subject so unless you omitted to read it, what your saying just isn't the case. Ditto the other occasions when we have won games. Disagree with me all you like but please don't accuse me of only mentioning it when we don't play well, or lose. Some people would love it if I didn't go on about it absolutely all the time, but I do.

I'm amazed that you think the performance of the team is unrelated to whether or not you pick the same eleven or make five changes. I've given reasons in detail why I totally disagree with the this point of view so there seems little point in doing so again now. Essentially though you seem to be making the point that it's purely down to the elven individuals which are on the pitch, and whether they played in the last game with the same players, or didn't figure in the last few games is irrelavent. It's about the individual or collection thereof and how he performs on the day. It's an interesting point of view.

As for the thing about the ten game winning streak while changing the team five times every game, we'll see. Provided we play teams like Wigan and Reading throughout the run, it might even be possible, not probable, but possible. I guess the crux is, would it be more or less probable if we played with a largely settled team? My feeling is that it would, whereas yours is that it would make absolutely no difference whatsoever. Like I said, it's an interesting point of view.

You probably won't read this Mike as you're so bored with the debate and you probably logged onto the rotation thread by mistake, but if you do, I'd be interested to read WHY you think selection is so irrelevent. I don't find such explanations boring at all.

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:17 pm

stmichael wrote:Best thing to happen would be for Rafa to win the league title this season or next and then it will not only ram all the anti-rotation down peoples throats but also end the debate once and for all and we'll hopefully never have to endure hearing the word again because it well and truly does my head in.

We never heard nothing about it during our first 6 games of the season when we won 5 and drew one and Rafa was ROTATING as much then as he is now.Soon as we drew at Pompey out it comes and off we go again about it all being down to rotation blah blah blah.

Its funny that we had 2 wins against Reading and Wigan after Rafa making EIGHT changes to the team for each match and yet that gets conveniently over-looked. Shouldn't making EIGHT changes to a team completely balls it up and we should be losing 4-0 or something if you listen to the experts??..hmmm.

It doesn't matter whether you pick the same 11 each week or make 5 changes per game, if the 11 that do play don't perform or make individual errors then we hamper our chances of winning. Rafa only made 1 change for the Spurs game from the previous league game and yet rotation was blamed for that draw...Was it not 2 individual errors by our players gifting Spurs 2 goals??. Yes,i think so.

We could go on a 10 game winning streak from tomorrow onwards and NO ONE will mention rotation despite Rafa making 5 changes per game.Then we could lose the 11th game or worst still draw it (As draws seem to cause mass hysteria nowadays with our fans)and Rafa will get stick galore for ROTATING.

Rotation is not the reason we don't win games and never has been but as with the scenario i've just put up, it will get brought up boringly each time we don't win a game. I was pleased to see an unchanged team yesterday but that wasn't the reason we won the game. We won the game mainly due to a bit of individual brilliance from Torres.

In the match thread Stmichael you say " if Torres gets another injury we're fecked." so how will we be less fecked if Rafa rotates Torres?

Same thing applies to Gerrard, Reina, Carra.... these are players who you only leave out when they are injured or shattered, mainly because they are head and shoulders above their replacements and also the spine and heart of the team.

I believe that rotation is a necessary part of the modern game, but it has to be sensible rotation. You don't rest players when they are playing well, you give them a run of games.

Mascherano looked shattered against Fulham, luckily it was the last game before the international break, so hopefully he will come back refreshed not absolutely knackered. However IF we had had a game in midweek, I would have seen no problem in resting him and playing Lucas/Sissoko instead.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:22 am

On this subject though, he has been very wrong in the past and the football club has suffered as a direct result of his misjudgement.

Mick, i have seen similar comments before by others aswell, i consider that a little pompous considering you offer no proof that it is the case. How can it be said (so definitively) that not rotating would have provided better results?

No one will prove that it doesn't work, and that results would be better without it, yet Rafa can point at League titles, European cups and cups and say my way has worked. Not winning the title with us , if it comes to it, will not necessarily means that rotation failed, it may have contributed, but other facets of Rafas management might have, for example, motivating players, signing players, system employed etc etc.

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:01 am

redtrader74 wrote:
On this subject though, he has been very wrong in the past and the football club has suffered as a direct result of his misjudgement.

Mick, i have seen similar comments before by others aswell, i consider that a little pompous considering you offer no proof that it is the case. How can it be said (so definitively) that not rotating would have provided better results?

Course I can't prove it Red, you're quite right nobody can and I'll give you it reads back as a little pompous, and I didn't mean it that way so sorry for that.

FWIW I sometimes read my posts back and definately I think if a few of the lads on here met me they'd be surprised. I come accross as some sort of school teacher or something. The truth is though, I'm merely a hairy-ersed bloke from a p!ss-pot town in Yorkshire who moved to NZ and now makes a living from running a sex-shop!

I've only ever met Dalglish off the forum but I reckon he'd confirm I've got feck all to be pompous about.

As far as the original post goes, I should have said "in my opinion". That's all it ever is really. I mean, can anybody say categorically that somebody else could have done a better jonb than Sounness? Where's the proof? No, it's all opinion you're quite right Red, and sorry for being a pompous git

by **LFC2007** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:05 am

Rafa on rotation:

"I felt it was right to give a side who score eight another chance, but you could see some were tired at the end, so I had to make changes," he explained.

"Would I do it again? Only if they score another eight goals."

We must score eight in order to sanction a non-rotated side.

This is hereby declared the eight goals rule.

by **redtrader74** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:08 am

bigmick wrote:
redtrader74 wrote:
On this subject though, he has been very wrong in the past and the football club has suffered as a direct result of his misjudgement.

Mick, i have seen similar comments before by others aswell, i consider that a little pompous considering you offer no proof that it is the case. How can it be said (so definitively) that not rotating would have provided better results?

Course I can't prove it Red, you're quite right nobody can and I'll give you it reads back as a little pompous, and I didn't mean it that way so sorry for that.

FWIW I sometimes read my posts back and definately I think if a few of the lads on here met me they'd be surprised. I come accross as some sort of school teacher or something. The truth is though, I'm merely a hairy-ersed bloke from a p!ss-pot town in Yorkshire who moved to NZ and now makes a living from running a sex-shop! I've only ever met Dalglish off the forum but I reckon he'd confirm I've got feck all to be pompous about.

As far as the original post goes, I should have said "in my opinion". That's all it ever is really. I mean, can anybody say categorically that somebody else could have done a better jonb than Sounness? Where's the proof? No, it's all opinion you're quite right Red, and sorry for being a pompous git

No offence meant, but what started out as opinion has slowly churned into 'fact'.

I'd have gone with School teacher, but sex shop?! would never have guessed.

by **taff** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:25 am

Sex shop fair play

Mick as you use Man Utd as an example, well IMO last season they ran out of steam in the champions league. They did win the league but we have seen how difficult it is to regularly compete on different fronts.

Now with our CL form my argument is tentatively hanging on but I genuinely think that Rafa thinks about the whole season in a chess type way. I admit to being frustrated that he doesnt at times seem to go for it in every game, but I am also frustrated with the quality of the squad that the players havent done this as well.

I am therefore of the opinion that we hold our nerve and see the season out. If we are off the pace then a rethink will probably have to take place, but at this moment in time we have given him time to buikd a squad so the least we can do is give him a season at least to utilise this squad.

I have a genuine feeling that we will finish strongly and Rafa will be the media flavour of the month for managing the way he does.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:36 am

Benitez, however, emphatically rejects the theory that, at £20 million-plus, Torres is his automatic first-choice striker.

"He is a new player and the same as anyone else in the squad. I have four strikers and they are viewed the same and must compete for the positions up front."

If Rafa really believes this we are in trouble

by **Kharhaz** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:39 am

Read nothing into it there mates !

by **LFC2007** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 1:42 am

s@int wrote:Benitez, however, emphatically rejects the theory that, at £20 million-plus, Torres is his automatic first-choice striker.

"He is a new player and the same as anyone else in the squad. I have four strikers and they are viewed the same and must compete for the positions up front."

If Rafa really believes this we are in trouble

I suspect he is trying to make all of his strikers feel as valued as one another.

by **skatesy** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:05 am

s@int wrote:Benitez, however, emphatically rejects the theory that, at £20 million-plus, Torres is his automatic first-choice striker.

"He is a new player and the same as anyone else in the squad. I have four strikers and they are viewed the same and must compete for the positions up front."

If Rafa really believes this we are in trouble

I think in the case of Rafa's comments here you have to take them quite lightly.

I do not think that Rafa is going to exclude Torres from any match of major importance. Furthermore, I do not think that Rafa is just going to leave Torres out of the squad for any justifiable reason. Rafa, the team and everyone knows that Torres is the #1 striker and he will feature in every game where he is fit and is needed.

Furthermore on the rotation issue...

I don't know, if it is just me or what and mind you I do not have any statistical information to back it up but I am quite certain the Rafa does not rotate anymore than the likes of Avram Grant, or Alex Ferguson or even some other managers in the Premier League and other leagues in Europe.

You look at the defensive line for Liverpool and it is pretty consistently the same with the LB position rotating a little here and there depending on the game.

Furthermore, you look at the midfield line and it stays pretty regular depending on the style of game. You can see a certain consistency forming in the midfield regarding player's positions. Gerrard is a sure bet in the middle with Mascherano and Alonso switching back and forth and Leiva making an appearance here and there. Sissoko has been left out mostly throughout the season.

The only real rotation that is occuring more often than not is the rotation upfront and that is only really between 4 players (and sometimes 5 with Babel...what, two games?)

All I am getting at is that I really do not see a huge amount of rotation, and everyone makes a big deal about it but there doesn't seem to be any more rotation than a lot of the other big clubs do around Europe.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:58 am

Bad Bob wrote:I've put up the starting 11 for each of our 20 matches to date (on left). On the right, you'll find players that were unavailable for selection due to injuries, suspensions, religious observances, etc. After each match (bar the first one), I've indicated how many "unforced" changes Rafa made to the team from the previous match and, where circumstances warranted, included the number of unforced changes from the last match in that same competition. Sorry it's a bit long but that's the nature of the beast.
------------
SELECTED TEAMS TO DATE, 2007-2008 SEASON

STARTERS UNAVAILABLE

1)Aug. 11 (@ Villa): 1-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

2) Aug. 15 (@ Toulouse): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Crouch
Voronin

[6 unforced changes from last match]

3) Aug. 19 (vs. Chelsea): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher
Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Alonso
Riise
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[0 unforced changes from last league match]

4) Aug. 25 (@ Sunderland): 0-2(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Gerrard
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Babel
Torres
Voronin

[3 unforced changes from last match]

5) Aug. 28 (vs. Toulouse): 4-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Riise
Benayoun
Sissoko
Mascherano
Leto
Crouch
Kuyt

[6 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL qualifier]

6) Sept. 1 (vs. Derby): 6-0(W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Hyypia Gerrard
Agger Carragher
Arbeloa
Pennant
Alonso
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

7) Sept. 15 (@ Portsmouth): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Riise
Agger Mascherano
Arbeloa
Pennant
Sissoko
Alonso
Benayoun
Crouch
Voronin

[4 unforced changes from last match]

8) Sept. 18 (@ Porto): 1-1(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Torres

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[6 unforced changes from last CL match]

9) Sept. 22 (vs. Birmingham): 0-0(D)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Aurelio
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Agger
Riise Benayoun
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

10) Sept. 25 (@ Reading [Carling]): 2-4(W)

Itandje Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Arbeloa
Aurelio
Benayoun
Leiva
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[9 unforced changes from last match]

11) Sept. 29 (@ Wigan): 0-1(W)

Reina Kewell
Arbeloa Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Aurelio
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Kuyt
Torres
[7 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

12) Oct. 3 (vs. Marseille): 0-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Pennant
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Sissoko
Leto
Crouch
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last CL match]

13) Oct. 7 (vs. Tottenham): 2-2(D)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

14) Oct. 20 (@ Everton): 1-2 (W)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Agger
Hyypia Arbeloa
Riise Aurelio
Gerrard Torres
Sissoko
Mascherano
Benayoun
Kuyt
Voronin

[1 unforced change from last match]

15) Oct. 24 (@ Besiktas): 2-1(L)

Reina Kewell
Finnan Agger
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Aurelio
Riise Torres
Pennant
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Kuyt
Voronin

[2 unforced changes from last match]

16) Oct. 28 (vs. Arsenal): 1-1(D)

Reina Agger
Finnan Aurelio
Carragher Arbeloa
Hyypia Pennant
Riise Sissoko
Gerrard
Alonso
Mascherano
Voronin
Kuyt
Torres

[1 unforced change from last match]
[2 unforced changes from last league match]

17) Oct. 31 (vs. Cardiff [Carling]): 2-1(W)

Itandje Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Torres
Hobbs Pennant
Aurelio Sissoko
El Zhar
Gerrard
Lucas
Leito
Babel
Crouch

[9 unforced changes from previous match]

18) Nov. 3 (@ Blackburn): 0-0(D)

Reina Alonso
Finnan Agger
Carragher Torres
Hyypia Pennant
Riise
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Sissoko
Babel
Kuyt

[8 unforced changes from last match]
[1 unforced change from last league match]

19) Nov. 6 (vs. Besiktas): 8-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

20) Nov. 10 (vs. Fulham):2-0(W)

Reina Alonso
Arbeloa Agger
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Aurelio
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Riise
Voronin
Crouch

[0 unforced changes from last match]
[4 unforced changes from last league match]

INTERNATIONAL BREAK

21) Nov. 24 (@ Newcastle): 0-3(W)
Reina Agger
Finnan Pennant
Carragher Alonso
Hyypia Benayoun
Arbeloa
Gerrard
Sissoko
Lucas
Kewell
Kuyt
Torres

[5 unforced changes from last match]

22) Nov. 28 (vs. Porto): 4-1
Reina Agger
Finnan Alonso
Carragher Pennant
Hyypia
Arbeloa
Benayoun
Gerrard
Mascherano
Babel
Voronin
Torres

[4 unforced changes from last match]
[3 unforced changes from last CL match]

Thought I'd bring this up to date (and off of page 4).

by **bigmick** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 4:39 am

Thanks for that Bob. Well it's fairly clear on first look that the Carling Cup game aside, we are seeing a drastic reduction in unforced rotations from the manager in the last five or six matches. By my reckoning, discounting the Cardiff game, we've made nine changes to the team in six matches since the last International break. This compares to 44 changes in the previous 12 games before that particular break (once again discounting the Carling cup game, this time against Reading).

So the calculator says we are changing an average of 1.5 players a match now, as against 3.67 previously. It's a huge difference and is about as near as you are going to get to a realisation and admission from the manager that we are really going to have to pick somewhere near our strongest team in nearly every game if we are going to prosper. The slightly annoying thing is that this pattern is exactly the same as in previous seasons, where it seems we have to prove once again that mass rotation won't work before we resort to tried and trusted methods (over here anyway). Those of us who bemoaned the over rotation at the start of the season are belatedly getting our wish, but it would be nice if just for once we didn't rotate "rafa style" at the start of the season.

In direct contrast of course, Manchester United and Arsenal are now starting to rotate quite heavily, particularly in the Champions League (where of course they have already just about qualified). Whatever happens in the rest of this season, I'd love it if just for once, we got boring and kind of did it the way that everybody else does. I supose the one benefit of the fact that we rotate early and then play a settled team, is that by the end of the season we'll probably have causght up with the other clubs int he total number of rotations stakes. At least this'll give Paul Tompkins the chance to write an article where he can indicate that we don't rotate any more than anyone else I suppose.

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Nov 12, 2007 5:14 am

it seems like we have had more injuries so far this season which may have been forcing Rafa's hand and limiting his option and therefore rotations. Its hard to tell what these #s would look like if he had the whole squad to pick from.

Oh and Bad Bob, Momo was not available for the Cardiff game because Rafa wanted to play him but he was sick

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