Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

A wee bit of styling tonight, a good idea or not?

I liked it TBH. Rafa obviously had the Chelsea game in mind (where we will surely play 4-5-1) so it made perfect sense to bed the system in during this match. It looked a little rusty as you'd expect, but I thought in the main it settled down alright, although I was a little disappointed it didn't stiffen up the defence more. I was a bit surprised that Benayoun was preferred to Pennant or indeed to kuyt, but other than that I had no complaints with the selection.

What a refreshing change it is to have the processes of team selection much more conventional than it has been in the past. Rather than resting half the team against Wigan, we played close to our strongest line up (infact from what was available it was very close to our strongest line up) and then rested players in the second half of this game. We had the facility to do that of course because we've got off to a winning start in Europe as a direct result amongst other things of not styling in the earlier matches. Also, because we are almost certainly going to play 4-5-1 against Chelsea, we had a "getting to know you" session here. All sensibl;e and fantastic developments.

Is there anybody left who thinks that we aren't witnessing a radical change in selection policy? Not asking if you agree with it or not, simply if you think we are seeing considerably less "styling" than before.

[Sabre]

Since you ask, I'll answer.

Yes, he's considerably rotating less. But 1 month ago, I didn't really know what would Rafa do when this part of the season came.

Meaning, that back then, Mascherano was in Argentina or coming from there. He didn't have quality options to rotate.

But now, Mascherano is available, yet Alonso is not being rotated almost.

I already admitted there was a change when I read the quotes of Rafa, but now I'm more convinced that he has changed in that front.

I still think though (and I hope not to wind up anyone with this) it isn't the KEY factor to explain why we are in top of the table (good side) or we have defensive problems (bad side).

[account deleted by request]

A wee bit of styling tonight, a good idea or not?

I liked it TBH. Rafa obviously had the Chelsea game in mind (where we will surely play 4-5-1) so it made perfect sense to bed the system in during this match. It looked a little rusty as you'd expect, but I thought in the main it settled down alright, although I was a little disappointed it didn't stiffen up the defence more. I was a bit surprised that Benayoun was preferred to Pennant or indeed to kuyt, but other than that I had no complaints with the selection.

What a refreshing change it is to have the processes of team selection much more conventional than it has been in the past. Rather than resting half the team against Wigan, we played close to our strongest line up (infact from what was available it was very close to our strongest line up) and then rested players in the second half of this game. We had the facility to do that of course because we've got off to a winning start in Europe as a direct result amongst other things of not styling in the earlier matches. Also, because we are almost certainly going to play 4-5-1 against Chelsea, we had a "getting to know you" session here. All sensibl;e and fantastic developments.

Is there anybody left who thinks that we aren't witnessing a radical change in selection policy? Not asking if you agree with it or not, simply if you think we are seeing considerably less "styling" than before.

Not wanting to worry you or anything mate, but Rafa was quoted at half time as saying a lot of our players looked very tired and he was very concerned. Maybe the early subs were a reaction to those concerns ...... or maybe the team against Chelsea WILL BE ?

I was happy with the team, apart from maybe Benayoun who I see more as a bit part player......better as a sub than as a 90mins player.

The problem is that at the moment he couldn't do a great deal more styling even if he wanted to. Torres injured, Lucas hardly shining when given the opportunity and Babel looking like he doesn't really care if he plays or not.

I couldn't see Rafa going to an away game in Spain and playing two attacking wingers , so Pennant was always likely to lose out. 

We have yet to see Degen in a real game, Skrtel injured and Aurelio more than likely to be injured.

Hyypia not included in the squad etc etc.

Apart from all that I still think you are right mate and we are seeing less styling.

[LFC2007]

I don't think Rafa's radically altered his philosophy, although I do think he's changed it a bit. I also think certain circumstances have altered which have led to a more consistent selection policy. I think a lot of it has been down who we've bought, i.e. the right players (Riera nailed on left starter as opposed to Babel/Benayoun, Keane up front, Dossena brought in to solve a specific problem and will inevitably be given a chance), and who we've sold (Voronin, Leto - inconsistent because not good enough...leads to changes, Sissoko - one less midfielder to accommodate) and also players finding their positions, e.g. Kuyt on the right (which wasn't the case early-mid last season) as opposed to Pennant who is no longer preferred and Benayoun who seems to be more bit-part. I think he's changed slightly in that we're not seeing Lucas, Babel, Benayoun or Pennant figuring as much, but I think that's in part down to the realisation that some may not be good enough, or at least not good enough to hold down a starting place. I think there's a clearer distinction in our midfield now with Gerrard, Alonso and Masch. The reasons being that Lucas performed badly at the end of last season and has made a poor start to this one in the games he's played, Sissoko is gone and Alonso is in form and hasn't had to overcome an injury.

[GYBS]

The prob we seem to have the moment thou is a few players are starting to look a bit battle weary and need a break . Thats where rotating or resting works . Some players need a break.

[stmichael]

Rotation only gets mentioned when we are losing. Don't worry, if Chelsea beat us on Sunday it'll be back on the agenda.

[maguskwt]

Just to add in a little talking point:

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English Debate: What's The Secret Behind Hull City's Success?

According to Fifa, Hull City's rise from the bottom division to England's top tier is the third fastest ever recorded. Their five year charge rising through 84 positions in the football league - from fifth bottom in League Two to sixth from top in the Premier League is bettered only by Swansea City (1977-81), and Wimbledon (1982-86).

Many doubted their credentials in the Championship, let alone the Premier League, and prior to the birth of this season the Tigers were tipped for a fate similar to Derby County - who finished last season rock bottom with a pitiful point tally one shy of a dozen, four worse than Sunderland who - two years before Derby's relegation - were the worst team to ever enter England's highest division.

After only six games into the season Hull City have equalled the amount of points it took Derby 38 games to accumulate. A total of forty has long been considered a tally that would ensure survival; last year Fulham maintained their Premier League status with 36, so if one takes these yardsticks as a measure of the targets Hull need to match then they are already just under a third of their way there, with not even a sixth of the season completed.

How are they achieving this? Especially with a backbone of mainstay players who were competing in the lower leagues for the majority of their careers not so long ago?

Hull City have an abnormally large squad, and Phil Brown has already used 23 players in only 540 minutes of football. Daniel Cousin for instance, who ensured Hull left the Emirates with all three points on Saturday, was only making his second appearance of the season. A policy of rotation is oft bemoaned for a club harbouring ambitions of winning titles, but are freshness and eagerness commodities that are more valuable for a squad trying to steer clear of the drop zone?

Phil Brown is a bold and brave head coach. Not many would change a winning tactic, but Brown's approach to the Arsenal encounter was tactically impeccable. Instead of fielding his 4-4-2 that secured a win over Newcastle United at St James' Park, and a draw against Everton at home in the KC, Brown opted instead to deploy Brazilian Geovanni in the hole behind his two strikers, in a 4-3-3.

Hull's midfield trio snuffed out, suffocated, stifled, and frustrated a lionshare of Arsenal's attacks, and it produced what must surely be one of the greatest results in their history under the guidance of Ian Ashbee - who has captained, and never looked out of his depth, in each of the leagues he and Hull have featured in.

Theo Walcott was largely ineffective as he was not allowed to run the lines like he has in the past, instead being forced to cut inside, where a waiting pack of defenders would block his path.

Brown admitted that he was told fielding Geovanni could be a suicidal tactic, but it proved to be match-winning one, and not for the first time as he secured the three points - from outside the box - against Fulham, too.

The only blemish on Hull's results so far has been a 5-0 mauling from Wigan Athletic, where a usually solid defence was ripped apart time after time from the imperious Antonio Valenica, who was afforded the freedom of the pitch.

Have Hull learnt from their Wigan mistakes, or will further teams embrass the Tigers and prove that the Arsenal game was a freak result?

This weekend Hull visit a side that are propping up the rest of the table with minimal potency in their attack and look as susceptible to conceding weak goals as they have done all year, is this result an away banker, or can Spurs use the tie to turn their own season around? Hull's other October fixtures include a visit of West Ham, followed by a trip to fellow former Championship contenders West Bromwich Albion, and then completed with a home Chelsea tie at the end of the month.

With a trip to Old Trafford, the Chelsea clash, together with games against Manchester City, Aston Villa, Portsmouth, and Liverpool still to come later in the year, a rotten run of results could easily mute the Tigers roar. In that event, could the Tigers pick themselves up in a similar fashion to the response after their Latic loss, or will they end up defenestating their chances of league survival after the best start out of all three of the newly-promoted teams.

http://www.goal.com/en-us/Articolo.aspx?ContenutoId=889299

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look where they are now... joint top in the league with a squad without any recognizable players... I'm not saying we will win the league with mass-rotation... but surely even MASS-rotation has its benefits?

[bigmick]

look where they are now... joint top in the league with a squad without any recognizable players... I'm not saying we will win the league with mass-rotation... but surely even MASS-rotation has its benefits?

No. It doesn't. If you are requiring players to play smash and grab football, to close down every inch of turf like their lives depend upon it, to run marathonns in pursuit of punted through balls then possibly extra "freshness" could be a factor. If on the other hand you are requiring footballers to play with cohesion and confidence, fluency and rhythm, you need players that can actually play as a team, on instinct.

It's funny that we play Chelsea away today, and I think in the corresponding fixture a couple of seasons back we decided to give Gerrard a try on the left wing (as I recall we lost the game, as indeed we did at the Emirates in that same season when we opted to give Bolo a stab in central midfield). Last season, we had rotated ourselves out of it long before we reached Stamford Bridge in the second half of the season, but got ourselves a creditable draw anyway.

Since then though, we've added Keane who most would accept has been slow to prove his worth. We've also added Riera who has given us some balance down the left, as well as a reserve goalie and a couple of other blokes. We've also suffered with a couple of injuries it's fair to say, but despite all that we are joint top of the league, with a victory over the Mancs under our belts.

It could of course be entirely coincidental, and nothing whatsoever to do with rotation. Rafa "seeing the light" is maybe a complete irrelevance, perhaps it is actually the acquisitions of Keane and Riera which have made us much more efficient at getting results, at coming from behind. Maybe it's just luck.

Who knows, nobody for sure I shouldn't think. This is the best run of results we've put together though since late January till the end of the season last term, and probably if we can find a factor which is common to both periods, we might be closer to discovering the truth 

[maguskwt]

look where they are now... joint top in the league with a squad without any recognizable players... I'm not saying we will win the league with mass-rotation... but surely even MASS-rotation has its benefits?

No. It doesn't. If you are requiring players to play smash and grab football, to close down every inch of turf like their lives depend upon it, to run marathonns in pursuit of punted through balls then possibly extra "freshness" could be a factor. If on the other hand you are requiring footballers to play with cohesion and confidence, fluency and rhythm, you need players that can actually play as a team, on instinct.

It's funny that we play Chelsea away today, and I think in the corresponding fixture a couple of seasons back we decided to give Gerrard a try on the left wing (as I recall we lost the game, as indeed we did at the Emirates in that same season when we opted to give Bolo a stab in central midfield). Last season, we had rotated ourselves out of it long before we reached Stamford Bridge in the second half of the season, but got ourselves a creditable draw anyway.

Since then though, we've added Keane who most would accept has been slow to prove his worth. We've also added Riera who has given us some balance down the left, as well as a reserve goalie and a couple of other blokes. We've also suffered with a couple of injuries it's fair to say, but despite all that we are joint top of the league, with a victory over the Mancs under our belts.

It could of course be entirely coincidental, and nothing whatsoever to do with rotation. Rafa "seeing the light" is maybe a complete irrelevance, perhaps it is actually the acquisitions of Keane and Riera which have made us much more efficient at getting results, at coming from behind. Maybe it's just luck.

Who knows, nobody for sure I shouldn't think. This is the best run of results we've put together though since late January till the end of the season last term, and probably if we can find a factor which is common to both periods, we might be closer to discovering the truth 

yes mick... it's a very fair point and post...this kinda leads to another point: whether our squad is good enough. last season your argument was that we had a good enough squad to challenge for the title and that it's mainly because of rotation that we went out of our title challenge... Keane had started slow but IMO the addition of Keane and Riera had improved our squad and team, no doubt about it. It is of my opinion that in our previous seasons, the squad and team was just lacking something and therefore I said that we didn't have a good enough squad to challenge and that rotation does not play a main part. If we are rotating quality for quality it won't make much difference, at the same time if we only have one quality player at a position, rafa doesn't seem to rotate him that much. It seemed to me that rafa rotated as much as he did because of the one dimensional nature of players at certain positions. Otherwise he rotated sensibly IMO. Now, because of the quality that Keane and Riera brings to the team, we look a much better and balanced side even though we're still not firing on all cylinders and Keane is yet to find his full form...

[bigmick]

That "Rafa only trotates because the players are one dimensional" line is the one that LFC has always stuck to. I don't buy it to be honest, but at least he's been fairly consistent in his opinions. I've no doubt though that whereas he was just about the only person to my knowledge who ever ventured the theory, it will now become the accepted standpoint of all pro-rotationers. Equally, the arrival of Riera wiull be elevated to almost mythical status, the missing link which has suddenly made us an all conquering team. Who knows, all the theories could be true of course, but I simply can't away from the recollection that each time in the past that we have opted for a largely settled team, our results have improved.

I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever, that had we gone for our usual "uber styling' at the start of a season under Rafa, we would have had quite a few less points this season that we actually have. For me, it really is as simple as that.

[maguskwt]

I've no doubt though that whereas he was just about the only person to my knowledge who ever ventured the theory, it will now become the accepted standpoint of all pro-rotationers.

Not really... it doesn't become the accepted standpoint only now... I've been saying since rotation was made such a humongous deal that our squad was simply not good enough and it's not that rotation was the main reason... you can search for my posts if you like mick... I don't know how to use the search tool properly so can't really be arsed to prove it...can't really help it too if you believe that LFC2007 was the only one who propogated this opinion and that now all the pro-rotationers are just simply reverting to this personal theory of his. And the line about "rafa rotating one dimensional players more" I posted when bad bob was posting his rotation analysis lineups that rafa rotates mainly wingers and fullbacks... and that the spine is left more or less untouched... hence he was rotating our weaker players... So in reality LFC2007 wasn't the only one...

anyway my point was that the team DID improve in terms of personnel (keane, riera), players maturing or settling in better (babel, kuyt, el zhar), players's form recovering (alonso)... and that rotation MAY NOT be the all mighty reason after all...

[bigmick]

Fair enough mate, whatever wherever and however. I've kind of lost the enthusiasm to debate it now, as the argument is as good as over surely. The manager has dropped the idea of mass rotation (he actually dropped it about half way through last season), and as predicted we are now far more consistent. If people wish to convince themselves that it is nothing to do with rotation, it was never an important factor one way or the other, then fair enough.

You might get one or two who come on and say "you know what, I spent years defending the idea of mass rotation but having seen how we've perfromed without it, I'm beginning to come to the conclusion that it might have been a mistake" but there won't be many. It doesn't really matter magus who was right or wrong, the most important thing is we don't do it anymore and the team is in the process of launching it's first title challenge under Rafa. If as you say it's because we've acquired the whirlwind starter that is Keane, or because El Zahr Kuyt and Babel have settled in better  , or because Alonso has found form and its actually nothing to do with rotation then lovely. Peachy infact.

I only hope that as the season goes on, Babel and El Zahar and Kuyt continue to "mature and settle in better", Alonso continues to recover his form and keane/Riera continue to make the difference. Hopefully, while all those things are happening we'll remember not to feck around with the team too much as well and that way we'll give ourselves a decent chance of avoiding bliiiiiips.

Fair enough though, the mass of pro-rotationers who heaped derision on me every week for the last three seasons were right all along. Mass rotation was a great idea. I wonder if Harry Redknapp will rotate as much as Ramos did? I guess when they end up finsihing about 13th in the league, that'll be nothing to do with rotation either, it'll be because Bentley has settled in better 

[Bam]

This is the best run of results we've put together though since late January till the end of the season last term, and probably if we can find a factor which is common to both periods, we might be closer to discovering the truth 

Surely its coincedence (sarcastic smiley)

[bigmick]

This is the best run of results we've put together though since late January till the end of the season last term, and probably if we can find a factor which is common to both periods, we might be closer to discovering the truth 

Surely its coincedence (sarcastic smiley)

Must be Bam, pure coincidence and nothing more.

Get this though, when we are maddeningly inconsistent and plagued with frequent bliiiiiiiiips whilst mass rotating and some of us moan about the selection policy, it's nothing to do with rotation. Then when we don't rotate, and we suddenly stop having bliiiiiiiips (not once, this phenomenon has happened a couple of times under Rafa now) that's nothing to do with rotation either You couldn't make this stuff up you really couldn't

[Number 9]

Hulls success is absolutely nothing to do with rotation!
More so a young astute manager that gets the very best from every one of his players in every minute in every game!They also have a belief they can win and are confident,they dont give teams too much respect(like at Arsenal for example).
They dont get over tactical either,just play their own game and without fear!

Great to see IMO.Any football fan that has not developed a soft spot for Hull or at very least has 100% respect for them has something wrong with their head!
Good luck to them,im sure they are an inspiraton to teams in lower Leagues that it can be done!